NFL style draft in Irish rugby?

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

As much as I agree with not having a draft (NFL is a closed league with all teams participating in draft, unlike Pro) I have issue with assuming all academies are ever going to be equal. There are going to be far more kids passing through the Leinster and Ulster gates, followed by Munster and Connacht a distant 4th.

Even if they allow more into Connacht it will be to pad the numbers.

The anomaly is the weakness of Ulster and not to relative over performance of Connacht (and to lesser extent Munster)

Realistically Connacht and Munster to a certain extent can only grow the numbers at the expense of the GAA.

Dravokivich

I think the issue of schools versus clubs is a legacy one. Obrien and Furlong are 2 prominent players I can think of that came from clubs. Leinster are also extending their schools competitions periodically. The school I went to was added recently and it's not a private school. The school henshaw went to, wasn't private either.

Rigor Mortis

troyzer wrote: »

Good solid Leinster lads like Seán Cronin, Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson Park, James Lowe, Scott Fardy, Michael Bent, Vakh Abdaladze, Ian Nagle and Joe Tomane.

Hang on. All provinces use the NIQ and Project player route. Henshaw is borderline Leinster and I think Vakh grew up here. So leave that out and you have Sean and Ian Nagle.

Even if you want to take all of them as being outsiders about 80% of our squad is Leinster born or rared. A huge chunk of all the provinces squads are home born or rared. This isnt an 'our province is better than yours argument', its a 'our overall system is better than other countries where there is no local allegiance' argument.

Leinster's academy is going to be a feeder for all provinces. There are good reasons for that and within reason, i dont have a problem with it. But a draft completely destroys the concept of local allegiance.

Squidgy Black

Vakh Abdaladze moved to Dublin when he was 5, and came up through the Coolmine system and then played u20s with Clontarf.

There's absolutely no way anyone can say he isn't a through and through Leinster player.

salmocab

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Vakh Abdaladze moved to Dublin when he was 5, and came up through the Coolmine system and then played u20s with Clontarf.

There's absolutely no way anyone can say he isn't a through and through Leinster player.

Well they can if they are trying to make a point and it suits their argument. It will get thrown around occasionally like people trying to be clever about Heaslip being born in Israel.

troyzer

salmocab wrote: »

Well they can if they are trying to make a point and it suits their argument. It will get thrown around occasionally like people trying to be clever about Heaslip being born in Israel.

Of course I'm trying to be a smarmy wanker.

Imagine a Leinster fan not trying to claim Henshaw as one of our own?

Vakh is solid Leinster.

The Lost Sheep

I was working and refereeing a schools blitz all day so didnt see this. Will respond to a lot of posts....

troyzer wrote: »

This one came up on Newstalk the other night and I was thinking it probably deserves its own thread.

The idea is that that every year after the senior cups, there would an IRFU organised NFL style draft where each province would pick a player in turn.

The order of pricks is determined by the ranking of the province in the previous year meaning that in a normal season you might have this order:

1. Connacht
2. Ulster
3. Munster
4. Leinster

Obviously as a Leinster fan I'd be dubious because it quite clearly shafts us the most, but it would spread the goods slightly from an overflowing academy system.

The main downside? The provinces would become pointless. You could be born, raised and learn to play rugby in Leinster but then picked for Connacht. It erodes the value of the ground up approach which has made the provinces so successful.

I also think it could lead to a slippery slope of players losing attachment to their province and eventually to their country and more would go abroad for the money.

Thoughts?

A draft at the end of each season not simply at end of the schools senior cups would be wrong and a waste of time. It isnt needed. And your post completely ignores the youths structures.
Leinster should always realistically be first in the country in player development. Most clubs playing. Most schools at all levels and more new schools entering competitions year on year.

troyzer wrote: »

We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?

Nobody has given away anything from this. Leinster have taken many players over the years from other provinces. They are strong right now but wont always be.

troyzer wrote: »

I'm sure Nucifora would prefer if he could handpick the squads for each province. It would certainly be in the national team's interest to stop stacking everyone in Leinster.

"Everyone" isnt in Leinster. Leinster have good depth but its not as great as you are making it out to be.

troyzer wrote: »

OTB presented it as the schools effectively taking the role of colleges.

The senior cups would be like bowl games where the players know they have to perform and it'll raise their draft stock.

Personally, I think it's a load of ****e. But there has to be a less irritating way to spread the wealth then Munster poaching players at the two positions Leinster have the least depth.

You are completely ignoring a major base of players in the youths rugby clubs/sector and the schools cups are nowhere near that good. When you say schools taking role of colleges what exactly do you mean?
This isnt Munster poaching players. And Leinster do the same at times as well.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yes. But the schools (and clubs - everyone forgets the clubs) are effectively already in the provincial development structure. It's the province's development officers that oversee the whole thing. And the youth squads that are taken from those schools and clubs and introduced to the system.

Not effectively they just are. The provincial development structure starts at u15/16 level in clubs and schools. Players are analysed in club/schools competitions and invited to provincial/regional assessments from u15 level up. There then is players added/removed all the time up to provincial squads selected for interpros.

Podge_irl wrote: »

Would it even be legal?

It is an utterly atrocious idea either way. Yes, Leinster are losing some backup players to other provinces where they have positions of weakness. But so far it is still reasonably voluntary and Leinster can handle it. Completely destroying the provincial identity will just see us end up like the Welsh regions.

I dont see how it wouldnt be legal. Its not going to happen and Leinster have lost some players but so have other provinces.

troyzer wrote: »

For now. What happens if Sexton and Byrne both go down and we get knocked out of the Heinken cup and lose a rake of games because Noel Reid isn't ready for top flight rugby?

Why aren't we starting off on a level playing field? Compared to Connacht I'd agree, population wise. Munster is a lot less but still has well over a million people and Ulster is nearly the same as Leinster population wise.

Population doesnt make it a level playing field. I would very confidently say between the few biggest rugby schools in Leinster - Belvedere, Blackrock, Clongowes, Marys, Terenure - there is more players than the entire province of connacht in age grade. So you then add the smaller schools and the clubs scene.
Munster doesnt have near the playing population of Leinster. Clubs(youths) and especially schools players are considerably less in Munster.

troyzer wrote: »

I never encountered rugby until I was in my mid teens. I grew up in a soccer house, I'm sure most people in Dublin did.

Rugby is a minority sport in all parts of Ireland.

It's not the first time players have moved, but it's getting irritating. They're taking players at positions we are weakest.

Taking Jordi Murphy is fair enough, we're stacked there. It's impossible to make a defence for keeping him.

All sports are minority compared to the biggest. Rugby is the 4th biggest sport in the country. Its not irritating. Leinster have a surplus and the players want to move as well. You seem to forget that

awec wrote: »

50% of Ulster's population has no exposure to rugby at school age. Ulster has no fee paying schools anymore.

Munster, in reality, have only ever built one team capable of winning a European cup, in a era where they ended up with a freakishly good pack. And rugby back then was totally different. To be honest, I don't think Munster will ever develop another team capable of winning the European cup, they (like most others) will be reliant on developing the basis of a squad and then recruiting in players from elsewhere to end up with a team that's good enough.

I think it is really only relatively recently that rugby has properly sorted itself out as a professional sport, with players being exposed to professional standards at a much younger age, going through academies with very defined pathways for development etc. I think Leinster are best placed to take advantage of this, and to be fair they do it very well.

Munster had an international 1-10. Leinster will be best placed as theyve population, playing base
Ulster doesnt have access to rugby through many schools but what is done to attract kids not in the protestant schools playing rugby to play rugby in a club?

jamfer wrote: »

There is a player pathway in place for developing players. That pathway encompasses both schools and clubs. There is a lot of work involved in promoting rugby and attracting 6 year olds into the game. For many it is an elitist sport. The focus on schools does nothing to remove that. Growing the game is what you should be doing. Opening up new areas, new streams, new people to the game and the values of respect and discipline on field and off should be the guiding rule, not retrograde steps,closing down access to the top.

I would challenge anybody to go to an U15, U16, U17 or U18 Premier League final and tell me that the club players involved aren't as skilled or talented as a schools player. The Shane Horgan Cup is the first step on the Leinster player pathway for club players - go to the games and judge for yourself - there's a round in Donnybrook on January 2.

Also played in Donnybrook are the U15 McAuley Cup and the U17 Culleton Cup, these again will feature the creme of club players.

There is more to rugby than schools.

Exactly.

awec wrote: »

True, but in reality how many of today's professionals came through the club game rather than the school game?

Schools still rule the roost for player development in Ireland.

Schools will dominate and probably always will in Leinster/Ulster but players "making it" will gain equity in Munster soon enough. And in many ways already have considering most kids in Limerick/even Rockwell will play with their club as well as school for some periods during secondary school. Cork with Pres/Christians are different.

jamfer wrote: »

If rugby is to grow I suggest that that should change. What is the footprint in Leinster of the schools? How many are there and how many players do they have?

Club rugby is in every corner of the 12 counties of the province. Last season there were over 75 finals played for U13 to U18 players. There are upwards of 5,000 players in those age groups in club rugby. There is a huge population there that is not served by a focus on schools.

GAA is there, all the way along. If your talent isn't recognised, because nobody is looking beyond the exulted schools, then you'll chase the county jersey instead.

Depends hugely on the school. There is huge population amongst the club game and its expanding year on year.

Deleted User wrote: »

You are right for sure, but Leinster's academy is out pacing most European academies and I think that goes beyond entry level playing numbers.

Is it just the basic numbers or is the setup in Leinster between the clubs, schools and academies operating at a more efficient level and producing better results?

If we can rule out variations in standards then yes, numbers and movement need to be looked at but I'd bet there is a variation there which the IRFU seem to be very focused on at the moment.

It goes a bit beyond entry level playing numbers and helped extensively by the set up in Leinster and standards of coaching etc. Movement should happen more but cross training of coaches needs to happen more between the provinces to improve things countrywide.

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think the issue of schools versus clubs is a legacy one. Obrien and Furlong are 2 prominent players I can think of that came from clubs. Leinster are also extending their schools competitions periodically. The school I went to was added recently and it's not a private school. The school henshaw went to, wasn't private either.

It is and isnt. Henshaw is different as he's Connacht developed and there is only one fee paying school playing rugby and theyre Sligo Grammar.
There is more and more players coming through the youths set up and Leinster and all provinces are expanding their school competitions year on year. Connacht have hugely increased numbers playing.
Leinster realistically have about 5/6 tiers of schools playing between intro to the sport, then development, A, B, C grade schools.

prawnsambo

All of the above what TLS said.

Now can we close this thread and never speak of it again?

troyzer

prawnsambo wrote: »

All of the above what TLS said.

Now can we close this thread and never speak of it again?

Sounds good to me. I was just hoping to stir the pot a bit.

This forum is known for its lack of passionate debate and needling.

Squidgy Black

troyzer wrote: »

Sounds good to me. I was just hoping to stir the pot a bit.

This forum is known for its lack of passionate debate and needling.

Did you just accuse us of lacking pashun?

Squidgy Black

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Did you just accuse us of lacking pashun?

DID HE JUST QUESTION MY FORUMMATES ? ? ?

kingofthekong

troyzer wrote: »

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

One of the great strengths of Irish teams is pride of place.  It is consistently referred to by opposing teams and commentators.  We would be crazy to give this away.

We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?

Theyve already taken Loughman out of the academy

kingofthekong

stl.ire wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

We're already giving it away by making strategic loans/permanent trades from Leinster to shore up Munster.

First Carbery and now McCarthy. What's to stop Munster from saying they're a bit weak at loosehead and sure Ireland have two Lions there, can we have one?

Transfers and loans really only happen for one reason - the Ireland national team.

If a talented player is not getting sufficient game time to develop, and another province is short in their position, then these moves happen. That’s why Carbery moved (and Carbery’s development is why McCarthy will get moved), it’s why Conway, Murphy etc moved. A draft would be detrimental to Ireland’s national team so it will never happen. Instead the IRFU seem to want to increase the number of transfers as they can control them.

As for Leinster, there’s no doubt they are gifting other provinces players right now - then again they have the most central contracts so can’t really complain when the IRFU want something, and it’s not like Leinster haven’t benefited from a Henshaw or Boss from time to time. I’d be very interested to see what happens after the WC if Sean Cronin is close to retirement and Tracey hasn’t developed, Leo should get on the phone about Munster’s Scannell/Marshall or Ulster’s Herring/McBurney!

Leinster Have Byrne and Kelleher coming through