Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

Mutant z · 03-09-2018 3:21pm #1

I know you have the great Kerry sides of the 70s and 80s including the 4 in a row but Dublin have now equalled that record after their victory over Tyrone yesterday to clinch yet another Sam Maguire with no sign of it abating. When you look at the never ending amount of young stars coming through the ranks its not inconceivable that they could go on to surpass that great Kerry team to win 5,6,7 etc on the bounch. They are that far ahead of everyone else its impossible to see anyone stopping them in the near future. Yes the other counties need to raise their own games but there's no doubt this current Dublin side are a very special team indeed.

Water John · 03-09-2018 3:27pm

I suppose the actual members of the Dublin team rollover fairly rapidly. How many of the starting 15 yesterday have the 4 all Ireland medals?

benji79 · 03-09-2018 3:27pm

I would say yes given the modern set up and format of championship

That kerry team was great but less games etc required to win an All Ireland

Mutant z · 03-09-2018 3:35pm

They always look they could easily click into first gear whenever they need even when someone gains a few points on them they respond with another 5 or 6, their fitness levels are through the roof they make nearly every other county look like a bunch of old men by comparison they are real athletes.

Danjamin1 · 03-09-2018 3:39pm

Water John wrote: »

I suppose the actual members of the Dublin team rollover fairly rapidly. How many of the starting 15 yesterday have the 4 all Ireland medals?

Well off the top of my head there's:
Cluxton
Cooper
O'Sullivan
McMahon
McCaffrey - Has 4 but not 4 in a row
Rock
Kilkenny
Fenton
Small

Then in the subs you have:
Fitzsimons
McCauley
Brogan
Flynn
McManamon
Andrews
O'Gara

May have missed one or two as well.

Water John · 03-09-2018 3:43pm

Yes there speed and fitness is exceptional. Also ball always into space, receiver has to accelerate into that space to get the ball and thus has the half yard on his opponent.
Yes I agree a fabulous team.

corny · 03-09-2018 3:54pm

A good comparison isn't possible imo. The game was so different in the seventies you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a different sport.

Anyway, i find most of the people keen on giving an opinion on this never actually saw Kerry play. A bit like the lads who tell you with conviction Ronaldo and Messi are the best ever in soccer. They can't even remember Zidane ffs. Nevermind Maradona or Pele.

jr86 · 03-09-2018 3:57pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Well off the top of my head there's:
Cluxton
Cooper
O'Sullivan
McMahon
McCaffrey - Has 4 but not 4 in a row
Rock
Kilkenny
Fenton
Small

Then in the subs you have:
Fitzsimons
McCauley
Brogan
Flynn
McManamon
Andrews
O'Gara

May have missed one or two as well.

Mannion has 4 aswell, although he didn't play in 2015 iirc

invicta · 03-09-2018 3:59pm

I still think as a ‘team’ the Kerry team from 77 to 82 can never be overtaken, simply because it was practically the same 22 - 25 fellas that started in 77 were still there in 82.
How many players have Dublin “blooded” in the last 5 years???

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 4:00pm

Multiple teams have done 4 in a row. No team in senior hurling or football have done 5 in a row. That will define if they are the greatest team of all time. Until Dublin achieve this they will be considered as just a good team for now.

_Brian · 03-09-2018 4:01pm

It’s not an apples to apples comparison though.
The resources and facilities at their disposal edge them towards semi profession status and so comparing them to true amateure teams isn’t quite right. Bit like comparing a premiership team to all the division three teams in the U.K.

That doesn’t distract from their individual fitness and skill though, just points out that the means to produce that isn’t available to the other counties and so comparing the overall teams is pointless.

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 4:01pm

invicta wrote: »

I still think as a ‘team’ the Kerry team from 77 to 82 can never be overtaken, simply because it was practically the same 22 - 25 fellas that started in 77 were still there in 82.
How many players have Dublin “blooded” in the last 5 years???

exactly. since 2015 Dublin haven't had the exact same team.

invicta · 03-09-2018 4:02pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

Multiple teams have done 4 in a row. No team in senior hurling or football have done 5 in a row. That will define if they are the greatest team of all time. Until Dublin achieve this they will be considered as just a good team for now.

O no, they haven’t!
Wexford in hurling and Kerry (2ice) in football!

yobr · 03-09-2018 4:04pm

Do we really need another thread on this?

jon1981 · 03-09-2018 4:04pm

invicta wrote: »

I still think as a ‘team’ the Kerry team from 77 to 82 can never be overtaken, simply because it was practically the same 22 - 25 fellas that started in 77 were still there in 82.
How many players have Dublin “blooded” in the last 5 years???

Intensity, physicality and commitment required is larger than ever. You can't truly compare them. Those same 22-25 fellas would be out having pints after training, there's none of that now. Injuries are more prevalent now due to the level of performance and training required, you have to expect key players to miss large portions of a season, if not an entire season over the course of their county career.

We're nearly talking about comparing systems or setups now instead of teams.

OldMrBrennan83 · 03-09-2018 4:05pm

Yes.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 4:08pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

Multiple teams have done 4 in a row. No team in senior hurling or football have done 5 in a row. That will define if they are the greatest team of all time. Until Dublin achieve this they will be considered as just a good team for now.

Dublin is already a great team to be fair. The five in a row could come down to the bounce of a ball in the last minute of the final. Does it going against Dublin really make the difference between the being a good and great team? I don’t think so.

I think the thread overall is pointless. Who is really qualified to comment? Chances are that on an internet discussion there are very few who would remember more than a handful of years back.

munster87 · 03-09-2018 4:11pm

Near impossible to compare. The sport is completely different now.

BonnieSituation · 03-09-2018 4:13pm

Yes

Billy86 · 03-09-2018 4:15pm

invicta wrote: »

I still think as a ‘team’ the Kerry team from 77 to 82 can never be overtaken, simply because it was practically the same 22 - 25 fellas that started in 77 were still there in 82.
How many players have Dublin “blooded” in the last 5 years???

Speakerboxx wrote: »

exactly. since 2015 Dublin haven't had the exact same team.

I don't see how having so much depth can be held against players, it never has for Brazil in football or New Zealand in rugby and to be honest there's a whiff of clutching at straws about it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 03-09-2018 4:15pm

Well they would hammer the great teams from past decades. But that just shows how the sport has changed. A division 4 team of today would very likely beat the Kerry four-in-a-row team.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 4:15pm

jon1981 wrote: »

Those same 22-25 fellas would be out having pints after training, there's none of that now.

This is the kind of BS that makes a thread like this pointless. Pints after training..........FFS.

invicta · 03-09-2018 4:15pm

munster87 wrote: »

Near impossible to compare. The sport is completely different now.

Yes! But the post is,
“Is this Dublin TEAM the greatest in football history”

I don’t think so,simply because of the number of players used over the last 5 years!

Badabing · 03-09-2018 4:16pm

invicta wrote:

O no, they havenâ€™t! Wexford in hurling and Kerry (2ice) in football!

Wexford Footballers did 4 in a row

Billy86 · 03-09-2018 4:17pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Well they would hammer the great teams from past decades. But that just shows how the sport has changed. A division 4 team of today would very likely beat the Kerry four-in-a-row team.

Yeah, I've never been a fan of that argument either - even your Pele's and Maradona's would look distinctly average in their own sport if you just popped them from their prime into a time machine to the modern day, without giving them access from a young age to the modern training techniques, technology, tactical knowledge, etc.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 4:17pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

. A division 4 team of today would very likely beat the Kerry four-in-a-row team.

How do you work this out?

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:17pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Well off the top of my head there's:
Cluxton
Cooper
O'Sullivan
McMahon
McCaffrey - Has 4 but not 4 in a row
Rock
Kilkenny
Fenton
Small

Then in the subs you have:
Fitzsimons
McCauley
Brogan
Flynn
McManamon
Andrews
O'Gara

May have missed one or two as well.

It's a 21-man game now, and you need the options on the bench. The days you could win a handy All-Ireland in three games like Kerry did are long gone. Every time plays 8 or 9 games nowadays and there will be bumps and bruises. The turnover in the Dublin team has been grossly overstated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final

9 of the players who started in 2015, started yesterday. Of the rest, Bastick is retired, O'Carroll is in New Zealand and Connolly is in the USA. Three enforced changes.

Flynn and Andrews, who started in 2015 were on the bench yesterday. Brogan would have been too, if he had been fit enough. All played in the Championship this year.

Six players came on in 2015 - Daly, Fitzsimons, McAuley, Small, McManamon and Alan Brogan, five of them saw action yesterday.

So, of the 21 players used in 2015, two have retired - Bastick and Alan Brogan - while two others - Connolly and O'Carroll - have made themselves unavailable. The other 17 saw Championship action this year. Incidentally, Lowndes and Costello were unused subs.

Murchan, O'Callaghan, Howard and Scully are the only real additions to the squad since 2015. Mannion was on a year off in China. Those four effectively replace Bastick, Alan Brogan, O'Carroll and Connolly.

I make it that Cluxton, McMahon, Daly, O'Sullivan, Cooper, McCaffrey, McCarthy, Lowndes, Small, Fenton, Kilkenny, Rock, Mannion, Brogan, McAuley, McManamon, Fitzsimons, Flynn, O'Gara, Andrews, Connolly, Costello, Byrne, all have at least four All-Ireland medals.

For a modern day team, it is a remarkable achivement to maintain that level of consistency.

shockframe · 03-09-2018 4:18pm

It's about even with themselves and Kerry.

Jack O'Shea mentioned that the 4 in a row Kerry team picked more or less the same players as opposed to Dublin who had more players.

That 4 in a row was Kerrys 5th All Ireland in 7 years. This is Dublins 6th in 8.

There's a case to be made for both being even as if you go to the start of Kerrys era in 75 to 81 with Dublins win in 2013 to now both sides have around half of their team still playing (involved in 5 wins).

A 5 in a row would settle it. It would be a perfect record in finals. 7 in 9 years.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 03-09-2018 4:19pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

How do you work this out?

They would be immensely fitter and stronger and would have much more tactical knowledge.

I think this is true in most sports. A mediocre premier league team of today would likely beat the Liverpool team from the 80s.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 03-09-2018 4:20pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, I've never been a fan of that argument either - even your Pele's and Maradona's would look distinctly average in their own sport if you just popped them from their prime into a time machine to the modern day, without giving them access from a young age to the modern training techniques, technology, tactical knowledge, etc.

Well, that's my point- it's very hard to compare players or teams from different eras.

Billy86 · 03-09-2018 4:20pm

blanch152 wrote: »

It's a 21-man game now, and you need the options on the bench. The days you could win a handy All-Ireland in three games like Kerry did are long gone. Every time plays 8 or 9 games nowadays and there will be bumps and bruises. The turnover in the Dublin team has been grossly overstated.

<snip>

For a modern day team, it is a remarkable achivement to maintain that level of consistency.

Countdown to "this Dublin team can't be all that great when they're so reliant on just a handful of players..."

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 4:21pm

invicta wrote: »

O no, they haven’t!
Wexford in hurling and Kerry (2ice) in football!

what about kilkenny? 2006-2009?

LiamoSail · 03-09-2018 4:22pm

_Brian wrote: »

It’s not an apples to apples comparison though.
The resources and facilities at their disposal edge them towards semi profession status and so comparing them to true amateure teams isn’t quite right. Bit like comparing a premiership team to all the division three teams in the U.K.

That doesn’t distract from their individual fitness and skill though, just points out that the means to produce that isn’t available to the other counties and so comparing the overall teams is pointless.

The means are irrelevant to the question. The question is "are they the best ever?" Not, "are they the best ever when weighing achievement and performance against average funding per squad member?"

Stoner · 03-09-2018 4:24pm

Yes or No it's a question we can't answer or agree on

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:24pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Countdown to "this Dublin team can't be all that great when they're so reliant on just a handful of players..."

There is an awful lot of straw-clutching going on in attempting to play down this Dublin team, but no team has ever dominated football like them.

The Kerry team of the late 1970s weren't able to dominate the National League in the same way and only had to get themselves up for a handful of games every year.

BonnieSituation · 03-09-2018 4:26pm

invicta wrote: »

Yes! But the post is,
“Is this Dublin TEAM the greatest in football history”

I don’t think so,simply because of the number of players used over the last 5 years!

Well it's nice now to see the goalposts have now moved on to something else.

I was worried that winning all before us actually would have contributed to the fact of this team being great.

Apparently not.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:31pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well it's nice now to see the goalposts have now moved on to something else.

I was worried that winning all before us actually would have contributed to the fact of this team being great.

Apparently not.

What is most annoying is that it isn't true. Players have changed places in the squad, some moving to become starters, others becoming substitutes, but 2 retirements and 2 making themselves unavailable have been replaced with 4 newcomers getting game-time on All-Ireland day, all part of a natural renewal process.

Kerry had the same thing.

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 4:32pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Well, that's my point- it's very hard to compare players or teams from different eras.

That is why calling a team 'the greatest' or GOAT is the preserve of their fans mostly. Achieving a 4 in a row was relatively as difficult in the 70's 80's as it is now.
It is fairly pointless comparison otherwise. They are the best team around at the moment, of that there is no doubt.

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 4:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

What is most annoying is that it isn't true. Players have changed places in the squad, some moving to become starters, others becoming substitutes, but 2 retirements and 2 making themselves unavailable have been replaced with 4 newcomers getting game-time on All-Ireland day, all part of a natural renewal process.

Kerry had the same thing.

i wouldn't take any notice. People always look for excuses when teams are successful. Dublin are a fantastic team managed well by Jim Gavin. He is the new Cody.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:40pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is why calling a team 'the greatest' or GOAT is the preserve of their fans mostly. Achieving a 4 in a row was relatively as difficult in the 70's 80's as it is now.
It is fairly pointless comparison otherwise. They are the best team around at the moment, of that there is no doubt.

You can always look at the statistics, and by dominating the National League, as well as the Championship, Dublin are a step above that Kerry team.

Hopefully, next year there will be no more hiding places for the doubters.

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 4:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You can always look at the statistics, and by dominating the National League, as well as the Championship, Dublin are a step above that Kerry team.

Hopefully, next year there will be no more hiding places for the doubters.

I don't 'doubt' you think them the GOAT, not at all. I think you were comparing them to Barca in another thread too. World domination is nigh it seems.

eagle eye · 03-09-2018 4:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an awful lot of straw-clutching going on in attempting to play down this Dublin team, but no team has ever dominated football like them.

The Kerry team of the late 1970s weren't able to dominate the National League in the same way and only had to get themselves up for a handful of games every year.

Yeah but this is more like the County panel has dominated regardless of what players are on it. It's not really about the team so much as just having so many players at their disposal.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 4:49pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

They would be immensely fitter and stronger and would have much more tactical knowledge.

I think this is true in most sports. A mediocre premier league team of today would likely beat the Liverpool team from the 80s.

This makes no sense. Why are you assuming that the fitness levels of the modern team is automatically the terms of engagement? Surely the only way to make a comparison is to assume strength and conditioning are equal and likewise tactical knowledge, and then judge by their achievements.

Why does the imaginary playing field have to favour the modern team? Sure that’s not a valid comparison at all. Kerry were relatively miles ahead of division 4 teams and would remain so I have no doubt. In the same way I woulD not expect that a division 4 team from 2050 would be better than the current Dublin team.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 4:50pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

Jim Gavin. He is the new Cody.

No he’s not. He’s Jim Gavin - end of story.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 4:51pm

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 4:52pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but this is more like the County panel has dominated regardless of what players are on it. It's not really about the team so much as just having so many players at their disposal.

don't let the facts get in the way. The myth of the ever-changing Dublin team is just that. 23 players with four All-Ireland medals.

blanch152 wrote: »

It's a 21-man game now, and you need the options on the bench. The days you could win a handy All-Ireland in three games like Kerry did are long gone. Every time plays 8 or 9 games nowadays and there will be bumps and bruises. The turnover in the Dublin team has been grossly overstated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final

9 of the players who started in 2015, started yesterday. Of the rest, Bastick is retired, O'Carroll is in New Zealand and Connolly is in the USA. Three enforced changes.

Flynn and Andrews, who started in 2015 were on the bench yesterday. Brogan would have been too, if he had been fit enough. All played in the Championship this year.

Six players came on in 2015 - Daly, Fitzsimons, McAuley, Small, McManamon and Alan Brogan, five of them saw action yesterday.

So, of the 21 players used in 2015, two have retired - Bastick and Alan Brogan - while two others - Connolly and O'Carroll - have made themselves unavailable. The other 17 saw Championship action this year. Incidentally, Lowndes and Costello were unused subs.

Murchan, O'Callaghan, Howard and Scully are the only real additions to the squad since 2015. Mannion was on a year off in China. Those four effectively replace Bastick, Alan Brogan, O'Carroll and Connolly.

I make it that Cluxton, McMahon, Daly, O'Sullivan, Cooper, McCaffrey, McCarthy, Lowndes, Small, Fenton, Kilkenny, Rock, Mannion, Brogan, McAuley, McManamon, Fitzsimons, Flynn, O'Gara, Andrews, Connolly, Costello, Byrne, all have at least four All-Ireland medals.

For a modern day team, it is a remarkable achivement to maintain that level of consistency.

TCM · 03-09-2018 4:58pm

benji79 wrote:

I would say yes given the modern set up and format of championship

benji79 wrote:

That kerry team was great but less games etc required to win an All Ireland

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 4:59pm

Remember when they were all saying that doing 2 in a row would be nearly impossible in the modern era and any team that could would surely be one of best of all time?

BonnieSituation · 03-09-2018 5:02pm

TCM wrote: »

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

Barely even SFs some years.

LiamoSail · 03-09-2018 5:02pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

So by your calculations, this Dublin team need a few more AIs, a Champions League and a Rose of Tralee title to equal the Kerry 4IAR side?

Do I have that right? Sorry, the logic is so bizarre, illogical and biased that it's hard to follow

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 5:11pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Remember when they were all saying that doing 2 in a row would be nearly impossible in the modern era and any team that could would surely be one of best of all time?

Fair point but you have to factor in home advantage that is probably worth about 5 points per game. England for example have never won a World Cup outside of England. Rural counties genuinely win All-Ireland on neutral ground or away from home when Dublin are the final opponents.

Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

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