Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 5:21pm

invicta wrote: »

O no, they haven’t!
Wexford in hurling and Kerry (2ice) in football!

what about kilkenny? 2006-2009?

LiamoSail · 03-09-2018 5:22pm

_Brian wrote: »

It’s not an apples to apples comparison though.
The resources and facilities at their disposal edge them towards semi profession status and so comparing them to true amateure teams isn’t quite right. Bit like comparing a premiership team to all the division three teams in the U.K.

That doesn’t distract from their individual fitness and skill though, just points out that the means to produce that isn’t available to the other counties and so comparing the overall teams is pointless.

The means are irrelevant to the question. The question is "are they the best ever?" Not, "are they the best ever when weighing achievement and performance against average funding per squad member?"

Stoner · 03-09-2018 5:24pm

Yes or No it's a question we can't answer or agree on

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 5:24pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Countdown to "this Dublin team can't be all that great when they're so reliant on just a handful of players..."

There is an awful lot of straw-clutching going on in attempting to play down this Dublin team, but no team has ever dominated football like them.

The Kerry team of the late 1970s weren't able to dominate the National League in the same way and only had to get themselves up for a handful of games every year.

BonnieSituation · 03-09-2018 5:26pm

invicta wrote: »

Yes! But the post is,
“Is this Dublin TEAM the greatest in football history”

I don’t think so,simply because of the number of players used over the last 5 years!

Well it's nice now to see the goalposts have now moved on to something else.

I was worried that winning all before us actually would have contributed to the fact of this team being great.

Apparently not.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 5:31pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well it's nice now to see the goalposts have now moved on to something else.

I was worried that winning all before us actually would have contributed to the fact of this team being great.

Apparently not.

What is most annoying is that it isn't true. Players have changed places in the squad, some moving to become starters, others becoming substitutes, but 2 retirements and 2 making themselves unavailable have been replaced with 4 newcomers getting game-time on All-Ireland day, all part of a natural renewal process.

Kerry had the same thing.

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 5:32pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Well, that's my point- it's very hard to compare players or teams from different eras.

That is why calling a team 'the greatest' or GOAT is the preserve of their fans mostly. Achieving a 4 in a row was relatively as difficult in the 70's 80's as it is now.
It is fairly pointless comparison otherwise. They are the best team around at the moment, of that there is no doubt.

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 5:34pm

blanch152 wrote: »

What is most annoying is that it isn't true. Players have changed places in the squad, some moving to become starters, others becoming substitutes, but 2 retirements and 2 making themselves unavailable have been replaced with 4 newcomers getting game-time on All-Ireland day, all part of a natural renewal process.

Kerry had the same thing.

i wouldn't take any notice. People always look for excuses when teams are successful. Dublin are a fantastic team managed well by Jim Gavin. He is the new Cody.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 5:40pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That is why calling a team 'the greatest' or GOAT is the preserve of their fans mostly. Achieving a 4 in a row was relatively as difficult in the 70's 80's as it is now.
It is fairly pointless comparison otherwise. They are the best team around at the moment, of that there is no doubt.

You can always look at the statistics, and by dominating the National League, as well as the Championship, Dublin are a step above that Kerry team.

Hopefully, next year there will be no more hiding places for the doubters.

FrancieBrady · 03-09-2018 5:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

You can always look at the statistics, and by dominating the National League, as well as the Championship, Dublin are a step above that Kerry team.

Hopefully, next year there will be no more hiding places for the doubters.

I don't 'doubt' you think them the GOAT, not at all. I think you were comparing them to Barca in another thread too. World domination is nigh it seems.

eagle eye · 03-09-2018 5:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an awful lot of straw-clutching going on in attempting to play down this Dublin team, but no team has ever dominated football like them.

The Kerry team of the late 1970s weren't able to dominate the National League in the same way and only had to get themselves up for a handful of games every year.

Yeah but this is more like the County panel has dominated regardless of what players are on it. It's not really about the team so much as just having so many players at their disposal.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 5:49pm

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

They would be immensely fitter and stronger and would have much more tactical knowledge.

I think this is true in most sports. A mediocre premier league team of today would likely beat the Liverpool team from the 80s.

This makes no sense. Why are you assuming that the fitness levels of the modern team is automatically the terms of engagement? Surely the only way to make a comparison is to assume strength and conditioning are equal and likewise tactical knowledge, and then judge by their achievements.

Why does the imaginary playing field have to favour the modern team? Sure that’s not a valid comparison at all. Kerry were relatively miles ahead of division 4 teams and would remain so I have no doubt. In the same way I woulD not expect that a division 4 team from 2050 would be better than the current Dublin team.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 5:50pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

Jim Gavin. He is the new Cody.

No he’s not. He’s Jim Gavin - end of story.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 5:51pm

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 5:52pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah but this is more like the County panel has dominated regardless of what players are on it. It's not really about the team so much as just having so many players at their disposal.

don't let the facts get in the way. The myth of the ever-changing Dublin team is just that. 23 players with four All-Ireland medals.

blanch152 wrote: »

It's a 21-man game now, and you need the options on the bench. The days you could win a handy All-Ireland in three games like Kerry did are long gone. Every time plays 8 or 9 games nowadays and there will be bumps and bruises. The turnover in the Dublin team has been grossly overstated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship_Final

9 of the players who started in 2015, started yesterday. Of the rest, Bastick is retired, O'Carroll is in New Zealand and Connolly is in the USA. Three enforced changes.

Flynn and Andrews, who started in 2015 were on the bench yesterday. Brogan would have been too, if he had been fit enough. All played in the Championship this year.

Six players came on in 2015 - Daly, Fitzsimons, McAuley, Small, McManamon and Alan Brogan, five of them saw action yesterday.

So, of the 21 players used in 2015, two have retired - Bastick and Alan Brogan - while two others - Connolly and O'Carroll - have made themselves unavailable. The other 17 saw Championship action this year. Incidentally, Lowndes and Costello were unused subs.

Murchan, O'Callaghan, Howard and Scully are the only real additions to the squad since 2015. Mannion was on a year off in China. Those four effectively replace Bastick, Alan Brogan, O'Carroll and Connolly.

I make it that Cluxton, McMahon, Daly, O'Sullivan, Cooper, McCaffrey, McCarthy, Lowndes, Small, Fenton, Kilkenny, Rock, Mannion, Brogan, McAuley, McManamon, Fitzsimons, Flynn, O'Gara, Andrews, Connolly, Costello, Byrne, all have at least four All-Ireland medals.

For a modern day team, it is a remarkable achivement to maintain that level of consistency.

TCM · 03-09-2018 5:58pm

benji79 wrote:

I would say yes given the modern set up and format of championship

benji79 wrote:

That kerry team was great but less games etc required to win an All Ireland

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 5:59pm

Remember when they were all saying that doing 2 in a row would be nearly impossible in the modern era and any team that could would surely be one of best of all time?

BonnieSituation · 03-09-2018 6:02pm

TCM wrote: »

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

Barely even SFs some years.

LiamoSail · 03-09-2018 6:02pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

So by your calculations, this Dublin team need a few more AIs, a Champions League and a Rose of Tralee title to equal the Kerry 4IAR side?

Do I have that right? Sorry, the logic is so bizarre, illogical and biased that it's hard to follow

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 6:11pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Remember when they were all saying that doing 2 in a row would be nearly impossible in the modern era and any team that could would surely be one of best of all time?

Fair point but you have to factor in home advantage that is probably worth about 5 points per game. England for example have never won a World Cup outside of England. Rural counties genuinely win All-Ireland on neutral ground or away from home when Dublin are the final opponents.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 6:19pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

That’s an interesting concept - the quality of a team being decided by how they arrange their local authorities!

The_Honeybadger · 03-09-2018 6:19pm

TCM wrote: »

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

So the few extra games against hopeless teams in Leinster is the deciding factor?

Whatever side of the debate you are on thats about the daftest point of view I’ve ever heard.

blanch152 · 03-09-2018 6:26pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

Dublin consists of a capital city council and three county councils. It is effectively a province in it's own right. Home advantage is worth about 5 points per game. All these details have to be considered when assessing this Dublin team.

Dublin probably need to win 4 All-Irelands to compare with 1 won by a rural county. At the current rate, Dublin need to win the next 4 to match the Meath team of '87 and '88.

do we have to put an asterix beside all of the previous wins by Tipperary, Cork, Limerick and Galway?

All have had more than one council at a time when they won All-Irelands.

Seems like a preposterous notion born out of bitterness.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 6:26pm

LiamoSail wrote: »

So by your calculations, this Dublin team need a few more AIs, a Champions League and a Rose of Tralee title to equal the Kerry 4IAR side?

Do I have that right? Sorry, the logic is so bizarre, illogical and biased that it's hard to follow

Vienna is one of 9 provinces in Austria. What I'm getting at is that in modern Ireland, Dublin is essentially a province.

There's a valid argument for re-classifying Dublin as a province an entering them into an inter-provincial championship against the other provinces.

There have been talks before about splitting up Dublin due to it's expanse in size.

Speakerboxx · 03-09-2018 6:27pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

No he’s not. He’s Jim Gavin - end of story.

success im referring to not personality. Yes your right he's jim Gavin you are fairly sharp and on the ball

Water John · 03-09-2018 6:35pm

The Dublin team are a great team, no doubt on that. It is I asked the question of the T/O in the team and squad. This was not a slight, just asking to help in the comparison.
The Kerry team had one real change on the starting 15 when Eoin Liston was brought in by Micko in 1978.
Both are/were supreme, of their time.

legendary.xix · 03-09-2018 6:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

do we have to put an asterix beside all of the previous wins by Tipperary, Cork, Limerick and Galway?

All have had more than one council at a time when they won All-Irelands.

Seems like a preposterous notion born out of bitterness.

What Dublin are achieving in the game is fantastic. The athleticism and tactical intelligence is bringing the game to a new level.

The expanse of Dublin is akin to becoming a province in it's own right. The provincial hurling championships consisted of 5 teams in a round robin format.

Connaught, Dublin, Leinster, Munster and Ulster could contest a 5 team inter-provincial championship in round robin format with the top 2 qualifying for the final.

It'll be a fairer reflection of modern Ireland. It should naturally be a higher level of competition for Gaelic Football. It's a compliment to Dublin and also a reflection of Dublin’s natural evolution.

My point again is that Vienna for example is a province in Austria. Dublin is now at a similar level in Ireland due to population size.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 6:40pm

TCM wrote: »

The 70s Kerry team played Munster SF & F, All Ireland SF & Final. 4 games thats it. The present Dublin team are without doubt the greatest team ever.

Not sure this is really a valid comparison. While Dublin do play more games there are still few where they are under a real threat. Having to play three games in Leinster - next year without a Division 1 National League team other than Dublin - is hardly the measure of all time greatness. Or would Dublin be even greater if they had to play Wexford and Louth? By this logic they would. Kerry could have played seven or eight games in their time too and, assuming a level playing field with all others, would still have won those All Irelands.

Powerhouse · 03-09-2018 6:43pm

Speakerboxx wrote: »

success im referring to not personality. Yes your right he's jim Gavin you are fairly sharp and on the ball

Cody has never managed a team to a football All Ireland so leave him out of it.

LeinsterDub · 03-09-2018 6:43pm

legendary.xix wrote: »

Fair point but you have to factor in home advantage that is probably worth about 5 points per game. England for example have never won a World Cup outside of England. Rural counties genuinely win All-Ireland on neutral ground or away from home when Dublin are the final opponents.

It wasn't worth 5 points from 95 to 11. Odd that. By your terrible logic New Zealand are at best a middling rugby team as 2 of their world cups where won at home.

Is this Dublin team the greatest in Gaelic football history

Comments