Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

Andy From Sligo · 02-09-2018 3:26pm

PowerToWait wrote: »

Thread needs more teacher bashing. Come on Andy, get stirring. Your earlier attempts were valiant but obviously more effort required

true, observation though - i still maintain that there are a lot of fossil dinosaur teachers about the place ... you know, the ones that should have retired ages ago - they would never allow a different way of teaching especially using tablets or any other technology.

freshpopcorn · 02-09-2018 3:37pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

true, observation though - i still maintain that there are a lot of fossil dinosaur teachers about the place ... you know, the ones that should have retired ages ago - they would never allow a different way of teaching especially using tablets or any other technology.

I get where your coming from but these are in every profession.
They biggest issue for me with teachers is they become teachers and they don't relies what they are getting themselves into.
They don't relies the paper work that is needed.
How they've to deal with parents as well as the tricky kids.
How a classroom actually works. From dealing with kids every day to the laws of what they can and can't do regarding giving a punishment.

meeeeh · 02-09-2018 4:08pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The way we teach is often a response to what is coming in to us. Remember having a chat with the home economics teacher a few years ago and she was telling me about her first cookery class with the first years that year. She had asked them to wash their bowls in the sink and going around the kitchen discovered many of them putting them on the draining board face up full of water. Many had never washed a bowl in their life and didn’t understand the concept of allowing dishes to drain. Their response? We have a dishwasher and my mother loads it.

A lot of parents do not give their children life skills and do everything for them. This translates to the classroom as some not having enough cop on to figure out how to do things. I teach science and in my first lesson was doing some lab safety. Only about 2 of the students in my class had ever lit a match and some of them were terrified of them. These are 12 year olds.

Sometimes we have to adapt to get material taught

Yes life skills are important but I remember a schoolmate who at 16 couldn't find a pan in their kitchen. She was a top achiever in our class, she had good gasp current affairs, excellent general knowledge and is now constitutional lawyer working for supreme court. I think she managed to get over her lack of cooking abilities.

Kids might not know how to use matches but I wouldn't even know where to buy them today. Does anyone still use them instead of lighters? I'm pretty sure the same kids would be well able to light a cigarette or a joint.

I think it's important to put things into perspective, it will be fairly easy to figure out how to dry dishes or fill a dishwasher.

James Bond Junior · 02-09-2018 4:10pm

I did cooking with my class. First dish was scrambled egg on toast, I had 12 year olds unable to butter a slice of toast as "their parents always did them for them."

rainbowtrout · 02-09-2018 4:29pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes life skills are important but I remember a schoolmate who at 16 couldn't find a pan in their kitchen. She was a top achiever in our class, she had good gasp current affairs, excellent general knowledge and is now constitutional lawyer working for supreme court. I think she managed to get over her lack of cooking abilities.

Kids might not know how to use matches but I wouldn't even know where to buy them today. Does anyone still use them instead of lighters? I'm pretty sure the same kids would be well able to light a cigarette or a joint.

I think it's important to put things into perspective, it will be fairly easy to figure out how to dry dishes or fill a dishwasher.

I use matches to light my stove in the evening as I’m sure many people do. Kids probably don’t know how to light a cigarette as so few smoke these days. Price has largely put it out of their reach.

You say these are easily learned skills yet it didn’t occur to any of them to turn the bowl upside down to let it dry.

Having everything done for them at home translates to many of them being quite helpless at school. E.g (and this has happened in my class countless times) student:I have no biro’
Me: ‘have you considered asking the person next to you for a loan of one?’
Student: ‘oh right’

This is a regular occurrence.

Andy From Sligo · 02-09-2018 5:11pm

in a way it always nearly amazed me how itinerants when I were growing up never went to school but learnt stuff fine (sure some of them might not have been able to read or spell stuff properly, but that happens with people who went to school too) - it was only when I moved to Ireland that most Itinerant/traveller children attended school the same as other children on a regular basis , I found it strange because as i say you would never get a traveller kid attend school in the UK when i was growing up and going to school. I dont know if its that the school wouldnt have them or that the travelers never hung around long enough in one place.

Does anyone know if traveler children attend UK schools these days?

judeboy101 · 02-09-2018 6:46pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

The oecd /pisa data backs up the when ict is used to replaced traditional teaching methods e.g books, copies, paper+pen, black/whiteboard, there is actually a decrease in attainment.

I don't think that report is a great comparison. Comparing investment in schools ICT without comparing other variables, like classroom size, teacher training, parental education etc doesn't really give a fair comparison.

Having said that, a lot of schools ICT investment had been misdirected or mishandled. A huge amount of money has gone into hardware - typically tablets - with very little money going into software or training. Tablets aren't necessarily the best device either - they are really designed for 'consuming' ICT rather than full engagement. They generally don't have a great keyboard, so if you're going to be doing proper 'essay question' responses, they're not the right device.

Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.

Andy From Sligo · 02-09-2018 6:55pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.

report away if they like - I would still like to see if there a difference between teaching someone at home using the internet and real life experiences than going to school and being taught by a 'proper' teacher ...

freshpopcorn · 02-09-2018 6:59pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

report away if they like - I would still like to see if there a difference between teaching someone at home using the internet and real life experiences than going to school and being taught by a 'proper' teacher ...

The media are doing a fantastic job at making kids afraid of the internet.

meeeeh · 02-09-2018 7:30pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I use matches to light my stove in the evening as I’m sure many people do. Kids probably don’t know how to light a cigarette as so few smoke these days. Price has largely put it out of their reach.

You say these are easily learned skills yet it didn’t occur to any of them to turn the bowl upside down to let it dry.

Having everything done for them at home translates to many of them being quite helpless at school. E.g (and this has happened in my class countless times) student:I have no biro’
Me: ‘have you considered asking the person next to you for a loan of one?’
Student: ‘oh right’

This is a regular occurrence.

Don't get me wrong I don't like helplessness in kids but I think helicopter parenting is more worrying for emotional development of kids and their confidence to try things on their own. They will quickly learn how to butter the toast if they are alone at home and hungry. I'm half suspicious our 5 year old is so good at buttering her crackers because she is so picky and has a habit of sneaking into the kitchen and eating crackers with butter after she didn't eat her dinner. Mechanics are relatively easy to learn when needed it's the lack of ability to try and fail and try again that's often missing.

freshpopcorn · 02-09-2018 7:36pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I don't like helplessness in kids but I think helicopter parenting is more worrying for emotional development of kids and their confidence to try things on their own. They will quickly learn how to butter the toast if they are alone at home and hungry. I'm half suspicious our 5 year old is so good at buttering her crackers because she is so picky and has a habit of sneaking into the kitchen and eating crackers with butter after she didn't eat her dinner. Mechanics are relatively easy to learn when needed it's the lack of ability to try and fail and try again that's often missing.

This is an example.
I was going to school we'd have a fight about who got to light the candle now nobody wants to do it with the fear of cracking matches and classroom burning down.

AndrewJRenko · 02-09-2018 8:18pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.

Not sure why you think it is 'uncomfortable' - I've never heard anyone suggesting that technology would replace a teacher.

Good use of technology can be helpful in a classrom for sure - that's very different from suggesting it would replace a teacher, which is a fairly nonsensical idea.

02-09-2018 8:55pm

Probably alone in the western world, about 85% of the student population of Ireland can, like their parents, truthfully declare that they have a private school education by virtue of the vast majority of schools being in the ownership of the private international business, and collaborator in concealing mass child abuse from the Irish state, known as the Roman Catholic Church.

A mere 'voluntary contribution' is surely a small price to pay for such a bragging right.

...

02-09-2018 8:57pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Probably alone in the western world, about 85% of the student population of Ireland can, like their parents, truthfully declare that they have a private school education by virtue of the vast majority of schools being in the ownership of the private international business, and collaborator in concealing mass child abuse from the Irish state, known as the Roman Catholic Church.

A mere 'voluntary contribution' is surely a small price to pay for such a bragging right.

...

my god a take as scorching hot as the sun itself *dons raybans*

judeboy101 · 02-09-2018 9:01pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.

Not sure why you think it is 'uncomfortable' - I've never heard anyone suggesting that technology would replace a teacher.

Good use of technology can be helpful in a classrom for sure - that's very different from suggesting it would replace a teacher, which is a fairly nonsensical idea.

Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2018 7:49pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.

Technology is the best way to get teachers away from admin work to actual teaching work. Just like many, many other industries, technology is pretty good at managing routine admin tasks, if managed and implemented properly.

judeboy101 · 03-09-2018 7:55pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.

Technology is the best way to get teachers away from admin work to actual teaching work. Just like many, many other industries, technology is pretty good at managing routine admin tasks, if managed and implemented properly.

Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2018 8:18pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.

All of these require input from the teacher. The teacher is the person with expert knowledge. Good technology will make it easy to capture, store and reuse the information, instead of fiddling round with sheets of paper.

For the record, you're not the only one complaining about more admin work. I've heard the same gripes from Gardai, from architects, and engineers, from data protection officials and all kinds of office staff. Usually, this is a matter of accountability and tracking, which lots of people would prefer to avoid.

Andy From Sligo · 03-09-2018 8:58pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job and do more of the ancillary work.

Gardai - years ago they used to arrest people and leave the paperwork and that to others (secretaries and office workers) but these days are bogged down with paperwork and office work along with their jobs ...

judeboy101 · 03-09-2018 9:42pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.

All of these require input from the teacher. The teacher is the person with expert knowledge. Good technology will make it easy to capture, store and reuse the information, instead of fiddling round with sheets of paper.

For the record, you're not the only one complaining about more admin work. I've heard the same gripes from Gardai, from architects, and engineers, from data protection officials and all kinds of office staff. Usually, this is a matter of accountability and tracking, which lots of people would prefer to avoid.

I'd rather my Gardaí police then pencil push, id rather my docs and nurses cure me than fill out countless forms and id rather teachers teach my kids for 740hrs a year, than for 650.just look at how admin technology has destroyed teaching in the UK. The burnout rate is crazy due to the pressure to track and record every aspect of students lives. All using the latest admin software that supposedly makes it "easier".

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2018 9:58pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'd rather my Gardaí police then pencil push, id rather my docs and nurses cure me than fill out countless forms and id rather teachers teach my kids for 740hrs a year, than for 650.just look at how admin technology has destroyed teaching in the UK. The burnout rate is crazy due to the pressure to track and record every aspect of students lives. All using the latest admin software that supposedly makes it "easier".

When 'Gardai police rather than pencil push' - that's when you get 2 million breath tests with 600,000 breathalysers. There is a balance, an appropriate degree of administration and control to actually manage the service.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 11:48am

I think there is a simply way to address a lot of the issues with school funding and back to school costs
Reduce the Children's Allowance from 140 euro a month to 100 euro a month, with the extra 40/month [480 euro a year] going directly to the school funding...

But, with that extra funding they must:
- not permitted to request any additional funding from the parents [PA can do as they please]
- supply all books, workbooks, copybooks, stationary etc - without exception [may discourage them from changing every year]
- supply all IT equipment for children, including tablets & software, that is required for the class [if child breaks, parents replace]
- supply 2 full uniforms to each child at the start of the year [may encourage them to remove crests etc]
- if tracksuit is mandatory, they also supply this - esp if crested
- supply fresh fruit/veg for small break [healthy eating policy]. Parents supply lunch

This would mean the school is properly funded and education is properly free for parents. There are no longer back to school complaints about cost of books, uniforms etc.

Yes, parents see a drop in children's allowance amounts each month - but in my personal view children's allowance should be to support children get a full and meaningful education.

While I am at it, I would also withdraw children's allowance based on school attendance (unless certified illness by hospital - not a doctor). So any child registered for school who does not make a minimum number of days per year would automatically lose it and have to reapply and be subjected to ongoing monitoring.
Home schooled children would need a different model, but probably linked to academic performance (or however its done today).

evolving_doors · 08-09-2018 1:44pm

Learning takes place during the interaction with a human.
Back in the day it was thought that radio would replace teachers.
Then TV
Then computer.
Then VCD
Then laptop
Then tablet
They're just tools the same as a pencil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEmuEWjHr5c

LirW · 08-09-2018 3:30pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I think there is a simply way to address a lot of the issues with school funding and back to school costs
Reduce the Children's Allowance from 140 euro a month to 100 euro a month, with the extra 40/month [480 euro a year] going directly to the school funding...

But, with that extra funding they must:
- not permitted to request any additional funding from the parents [PA can do as they please]
- supply all books, workbooks, copybooks, stationary etc - without exception [may discourage them from changing every year]
- supply all IT equipment for children, including tablets & software, that is required for the class [if child breaks, parents replace]
- supply 2 full uniforms to each child at the start of the year [may encourage them to remove crests etc]
- if tracksuit is mandatory, they also supply this - esp if crested
- supply fresh fruit/veg for small break [healthy eating policy]. Parents supply lunch

This would mean the school is properly funded and education is properly free for parents. There are no longer back to school complaints about cost of books, uniforms etc.

Yes, parents see a drop in children's allowance amounts each month - but in my personal view children's allowance should be to support children get a full and meaningful education.

While I am at it, I would also withdraw children's allowance based on school attendance (unless certified illness by hospital - not a doctor). So any child registered for school who does not make a minimum number of days per year would automatically lose it and have to reapply and be subjected to ongoing monitoring.
Home schooled children would need a different model, but probably linked to academic performance (or however its done today).

Started reading it, thought that turns into another "fund your children yourself rant" but I gotta say this is a brilliant idea! It would take pressure off the parents, all schools have to supply whatever they need/want and might tackle overinflated prices for things. Some stuff is willfully accepted in schools because it's the parents paying, not their money.
Personally I'd have no problem with a lower child benefit in that case.

suicide_circus · 08-09-2018 3:46pm

this is part of living in a low tax economy. low tax economy? Yes. We have about a million workers who pay no income tax. none. zilch. we have very low corporation tax. at the same time we play it the socialist utopia with un-means-tested child benefits and generous social welfare. we give 100% free travel to a over a million people....in Austria OAPs get a 50% discount off public transport and they pay far more income tax than we do. we are a banana republic. we write cheques our ass can't cash.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:14pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Learning takes place during the interaction with a human.
Back in the day it was thought that radio would replace teachers.
Then TV
Then computer.
Then VCD
Then laptop
Then tablet
They're just tools the same as a pencil.

Maybe at primary and secondary school level what you are saying is correct. Teacher's have embraced different teaching techniques, and future technology like augmented reality will chance how certain subjects are taught. But will they replace teachers - unlikely !!

That said, adults should be able to learn via other methods. I have done a number of both virtual classroom courses and online courses delivered in conjunction with step by step practicals. They are fantastic as you can do them at your own time and pace. Yes, someone had to create the course initially, but it does not need a teacher to deliver it - that is the different. I fully accept its not 'interactive' and maybe not as good as a classroom scenario - but a hell of a lot cheaper when you are paying for it yourself.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:22pm

LirW wrote: »

Started reading it, thought that turns into another "fund your children yourself rant" but I gotta say this is a brilliant idea!

I will take that as a compliment !!!

LirW wrote: »

It would take pressure off the parents, all schools have to supply whatever they need/want and might tackle overinflated prices for things. Some stuff is willfully accepted in schools because it's the parents paying, not their money.
Personally I'd have no problem with a lower child benefit in that case.

I am new to the primary school system with one in Senior Infants and another in Junior Infants. Its very clear from the last 12 months, the school has no real interest in tackling costs for parents. Yes there are certain steps in place, but not the same if it was their own money they are spending.

I strongly believe that children's allowance should be used to ensure children get a solid education. It is the one gift a parent (and the state) can give a child that will last a lifetime. So why not divert resources to ensure the school is adequately funded, but on the condition they fund all the education needs. It should be a win/win for all.

Its back to the "would you pay more tax for better services" question? The answer back is normally, if you guarantee better services. This is a targeted discussion on the same thing - the people losing out (lower children's allowance) are the self same people with children in education so benefiting from the reallocation. I would also accept lower children's allowance for properly funded schools - but the schools then have to provide all the children's educational needs !

dartboardio · 08-09-2018 4:24pm

I won’t be paying it for my kids and will be questioning it.

When I went to school they would send out letters looking for it if you hadn’t paid it. And of course the crazy prices to rent a locker. € 150 for the year for a bloody locker they have for free. That’s like renting a desk

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:32pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is part of living in a low tax economy. low tax economy? Yes. We have about a million workers who pay no income tax. none. zilch. we have very low corporation tax. at the same time we play it the socialist utopia with un-means-tested child benefits and generous social welfare. we give 100% free travel to a over a million people....in Austria OAPs get a 50% discount off public transport and they pay far more income tax than we do. we are a banana republic. we write cheques our ass can't cash.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above commentary. Unlikely say Norway we do not have massive natural resources. We want a Swedish style social welfare state on US level taxation. We promise more and more at election time, with no funding plan to back it up.

But my suggestion on decreasing child benefit to increase school funding is cost neutral on the state. It is simply taking 480 euro a year off each parent in receipt of children's allowance and giving it to the school system to ensure its adequately funded. In turn the school now has to fund all the children's educational needs from this extra grant.

The other issues listed above, on low tax/free houses/ high social welfare etc are for another day

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:35pm

dartboardio wrote: »

I won’t be paying it for my kids and will be questioning it.

When I went to school they would send out letters looking for it if you hadn’t paid it. And of course the crazy prices to rent a locker. € 150 for the year for a bloody locker they have for free. That’s like renting a desk

With my suggestion there would be no charges for lockers as the school have to provide all educational items without exception !!

Maybe the €150 charge is because not enough people pay it and they have to be funded from somewhere. The school needs a certain amount of money to survive - if it cannot get it from one source, it will get it from another. There is no magic money tree they can pick (sadly). The government have fixed rates for funding

Andy From Sligo · 08-09-2018 8:55pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

With my suggestion there would be no charges for lockers as the school have to provide all educational items without exception !!

Maybe the €150 charge is because not enough people pay it and they have to be funded from somewhere. The school needs a certain amount of money to survive - if it cannot get it from one source, it will get it from another. There is no magic money tree they can pick (sadly). The government have fixed rates for funding

ha - thats a joke in itself - The government have fixed rates for funding !

I have lived in Ireland for 27 years and a lot of schools have always seemed to be underfunded by the government - school buildings falling down, prefab units , no proper lunch halls and free school meals / subsidised meals for the poor - no proper gyms and equipment for exercise - the government seem to under-fund in these departments, so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 4:48pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ha - thats a joke in itself - The government have fixed rates for funding !

I have lived in Ireland for 27 years and a lot of schools have always seemed to be underfunded by the government - school buildings falling down, prefab units , no proper lunch halls and free school meals / subsidised meals for the poor - no proper gyms and equipment for exercise - the government seem to under-fund in these departments, so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

What I meant by fixed rate of funding is there is a certain allocation per student and that is that. I agree that this rate is inadequate, and agree it should be increased.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Lets talk specifics here - Education gets 10.1bn this year, 13.9% of the overall total.
Child Benefit is 2.08bn - roughly 10% of the social protection budget of 20bn.
Primary Teachers salaries are 2.42bn
Grants to all schools are roughly 526m [438m + 88m]

One of the downside of a low tax economy is there is not enough funding for everything and the shortfall has to be made up somewhere. In the case of education, its the parents (and in some cases teachers) who provide the extra funding.
The options are
- re-divert existing expenditure to education
- increase taxes to cover the increased costs. This means widening the tax net to increase the number of people paying taxes.

I agree 100% that schools are not adequately funded. But I also disagree with spending >2bn on child benefit when education is not funded properly. We should be ensuring our kids are properly educated before anything else.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

Surely it is the parents who should be pressurising/lobbying the government to adequately fund schools, rather than the schools themselves.
The parents are the ones who have to make up the shortfall - they have the most to gain from any increase in funding.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 5:19pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

.............This means widening the tax net to increase the number of people paying taxes...........

That would be a good idea anyway, and regardless of this education issue should be done anyway.

Andy From Sligo · 09-09-2018 5:42pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Surely it is the parents who should be pressurising/lobbying the government to adequately fund schools, rather than the schools themselves.
The parents are the ones who have to make up the shortfall - they have the most to gain from any increase in funding.

but, if its the schools citing that they dont get enough money off the government and they have to get the donations from the parents - then the schools must know what they are on about , and they would have the paperwork and balance sheets to show the government where the shortfalls are and the areas where the governments are failing to provide enough money ... parents dont have access to
the schools finances and balance books

byhookorbycrook · 09-09-2018 6:35pm

airy fairy wrote: »

I think few people have an issue with books at school.
In primary, my issue is the workbooks in particular. I have to buy them new every year.
What is wrong with teacher actually preparing work for kids on a board and work being done in a copy? I remember teachers preparing work from main books on a few pages and then getting them photocopied for the class? Too much like hard work I suspect!
I'll gladly buy €300 worth of books for my secondary school child, but chances are, I can't pass them on to my next child. Revision numbers in books are the issue. .

Work is done in copies when the children are older. infants and many children with issues like dyspraxia, dyslexia, processing issues etc. would take forever to transcribe from the board and accuracy would be an issue.
Photocopies also tend to get lost or end up in a ball in the bin or the bottom of a bag covered in Yop. Photocopying isn't free, so will still end up costing money.

In any case, the days of plain handwritten text are well over. Children are used to colourful and well illustrated texts whether online or to handle.

The bottom line is the education is seriously underfunded and parents and schools are being forced to make up the shortfalls.

AndrewJRenko · 09-09-2018 7:01pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

... parents dont have access to
the schools finances and balance books

They do, or they certainly should. One of the obligations on Boards of Management is to share details of the school accounts and finances with the school community.

It doesn't always happen, but parents should certainly look for details proactively if they're not seeing accounts at all.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:23pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

but, if its the schools citing that they dont get enough money off the government and they have to get the donations from the parents - then the schools must know what they are on about , and they would have the paperwork and balance sheets to show the government where the shortfalls are and the areas where the governments are failing to provide enough money ... parents dont have access to the schools finances and balance books

The three schools I have any experience with all issue the parents with the schools accounts at the PA AGM. This shows exactly what they have received during the year and how they have spent it. The PA then do the same with their funds.

There are parent representatives on schools board of management, so there is access to this detail if someone is interested in it.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:30pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That would be a good idea anyway, and regardless of this education issue should be done anyway.

This does not suit the ongoing popular opinion that as a country we can have full services and free everything and either someone else will pay for it, or the magic money tree out the back of Leinster House will pay for it. We always have the Apple money to fall back on !!

The problem is if we did increase USC, for example, we would only half do it and raise it by 1% and would still be only be able to half fund services. It would also result in an immediate public sector wage increase discussion.

At the moment, people do not feel additional taxes will result in better services, so they may as well get the €5 into their pockets per week. It just shows the faith people really have in the government

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:34pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The bottom line is the education is seriously underfunded and parents and schools are being forced to make up the shortfalls.

Absolutely, and I genuinely believe money should be diverted from Child Benefit to support it properly. Doing it this way, means the same people are both benefiting from it and paying for it at the same time.

If this was done, and it worked, there may be able to have a reasonable discussion on higher taxes for better services. But for the moment, without a concrete example that would work, then it is a very difficult discussion to have

BeerWolf · 09-09-2018 8:07pm

Went to Sutton Park School with my sister's back in the 90s and early 2000s. They asked for a lot, that most likely ended up in their pockets.

For a ridiculously expensive private school it was an absolute kip, with equipment and facilities that was probably a century old.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 8:27pm

BeerWolf wrote: »

Went to Sutton Park School with my sister's back in the 90s and early 2000s. They asked for a lot, that most likely ended up in their pockets.

For a ridiculously expensive private school it was an absolute kip, with equipment and facilities that was probably a century old.

Fee paying schools are accountable to the parents who pay the fees. If they are expensive and the parent feels they do not get value for money, then they should not send their children there.

Surely a fee paying school is more like a business mentality.

BTW - if you look at the fees charged by schools, you will see a jump in the mid-90's when 3rd level fees were abolished. Fee paying schools took this as an opportunity to increase their fees dramatically !

4ensic15 · 27-09-2018 8:22pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah right thank - i though it was saturday school for french kids - i didnt know about the other bits though.

could you imagine if the kids had to go to school on saturdays over here!

They did until the late '60s when the " free" education came in with the Dept of Education paying the teachers.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-09-2018 12:34am

It's a tax dodge.

If it wasn't voluntary you'd have to pay tax on it too.

Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

Comments