Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

AndrewJRenko · 03-09-2018 9:58pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

I'd rather my Gardaí police then pencil push, id rather my docs and nurses cure me than fill out countless forms and id rather teachers teach my kids for 740hrs a year, than for 650.just look at how admin technology has destroyed teaching in the UK. The burnout rate is crazy due to the pressure to track and record every aspect of students lives. All using the latest admin software that supposedly makes it "easier".

When 'Gardai police rather than pencil push' - that's when you get 2 million breath tests with 600,000 breathalysers. There is a balance, an appropriate degree of administration and control to actually manage the service.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 11:48am

I think there is a simply way to address a lot of the issues with school funding and back to school costs
Reduce the Children's Allowance from 140 euro a month to 100 euro a month, with the extra 40/month [480 euro a year] going directly to the school funding...

But, with that extra funding they must:
- not permitted to request any additional funding from the parents [PA can do as they please]
- supply all books, workbooks, copybooks, stationary etc - without exception [may discourage them from changing every year]
- supply all IT equipment for children, including tablets & software, that is required for the class [if child breaks, parents replace]
- supply 2 full uniforms to each child at the start of the year [may encourage them to remove crests etc]
- if tracksuit is mandatory, they also supply this - esp if crested
- supply fresh fruit/veg for small break [healthy eating policy]. Parents supply lunch

This would mean the school is properly funded and education is properly free for parents. There are no longer back to school complaints about cost of books, uniforms etc.

Yes, parents see a drop in children's allowance amounts each month - but in my personal view children's allowance should be to support children get a full and meaningful education.

While I am at it, I would also withdraw children's allowance based on school attendance (unless certified illness by hospital - not a doctor). So any child registered for school who does not make a minimum number of days per year would automatically lose it and have to reapply and be subjected to ongoing monitoring.
Home schooled children would need a different model, but probably linked to academic performance (or however its done today).

evolving_doors · 08-09-2018 1:44pm

Learning takes place during the interaction with a human.
Back in the day it was thought that radio would replace teachers.
Then TV
Then computer.
Then VCD
Then laptop
Then tablet
They're just tools the same as a pencil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEmuEWjHr5c

LirW · 08-09-2018 3:30pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

I think there is a simply way to address a lot of the issues with school funding and back to school costs
Reduce the Children's Allowance from 140 euro a month to 100 euro a month, with the extra 40/month [480 euro a year] going directly to the school funding...

But, with that extra funding they must:
- not permitted to request any additional funding from the parents [PA can do as they please]
- supply all books, workbooks, copybooks, stationary etc - without exception [may discourage them from changing every year]
- supply all IT equipment for children, including tablets & software, that is required for the class [if child breaks, parents replace]
- supply 2 full uniforms to each child at the start of the year [may encourage them to remove crests etc]
- if tracksuit is mandatory, they also supply this - esp if crested
- supply fresh fruit/veg for small break [healthy eating policy]. Parents supply lunch

This would mean the school is properly funded and education is properly free for parents. There are no longer back to school complaints about cost of books, uniforms etc.

Yes, parents see a drop in children's allowance amounts each month - but in my personal view children's allowance should be to support children get a full and meaningful education.

While I am at it, I would also withdraw children's allowance based on school attendance (unless certified illness by hospital - not a doctor). So any child registered for school who does not make a minimum number of days per year would automatically lose it and have to reapply and be subjected to ongoing monitoring.
Home schooled children would need a different model, but probably linked to academic performance (or however its done today).

Started reading it, thought that turns into another "fund your children yourself rant" but I gotta say this is a brilliant idea! It would take pressure off the parents, all schools have to supply whatever they need/want and might tackle overinflated prices for things. Some stuff is willfully accepted in schools because it's the parents paying, not their money.
Personally I'd have no problem with a lower child benefit in that case.

suicide_circus · 08-09-2018 3:46pm

this is part of living in a low tax economy. low tax economy? Yes. We have about a million workers who pay no income tax. none. zilch. we have very low corporation tax. at the same time we play it the socialist utopia with un-means-tested child benefits and generous social welfare. we give 100% free travel to a over a million people....in Austria OAPs get a 50% discount off public transport and they pay far more income tax than we do. we are a banana republic. we write cheques our ass can't cash.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:14pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Learning takes place during the interaction with a human.
Back in the day it was thought that radio would replace teachers.
Then TV
Then computer.
Then VCD
Then laptop
Then tablet
They're just tools the same as a pencil.

Maybe at primary and secondary school level what you are saying is correct. Teacher's have embraced different teaching techniques, and future technology like augmented reality will chance how certain subjects are taught. But will they replace teachers - unlikely !!

That said, adults should be able to learn via other methods. I have done a number of both virtual classroom courses and online courses delivered in conjunction with step by step practicals. They are fantastic as you can do them at your own time and pace. Yes, someone had to create the course initially, but it does not need a teacher to deliver it - that is the different. I fully accept its not 'interactive' and maybe not as good as a classroom scenario - but a hell of a lot cheaper when you are paying for it yourself.

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:22pm

LirW wrote: »

Started reading it, thought that turns into another "fund your children yourself rant" but I gotta say this is a brilliant idea!

I will take that as a compliment !!!

LirW wrote: »

It would take pressure off the parents, all schools have to supply whatever they need/want and might tackle overinflated prices for things. Some stuff is willfully accepted in schools because it's the parents paying, not their money.
Personally I'd have no problem with a lower child benefit in that case.

I am new to the primary school system with one in Senior Infants and another in Junior Infants. Its very clear from the last 12 months, the school has no real interest in tackling costs for parents. Yes there are certain steps in place, but not the same if it was their own money they are spending.

I strongly believe that children's allowance should be used to ensure children get a solid education. It is the one gift a parent (and the state) can give a child that will last a lifetime. So why not divert resources to ensure the school is adequately funded, but on the condition they fund all the education needs. It should be a win/win for all.

Its back to the "would you pay more tax for better services" question? The answer back is normally, if you guarantee better services. This is a targeted discussion on the same thing - the people losing out (lower children's allowance) are the self same people with children in education so benefiting from the reallocation. I would also accept lower children's allowance for properly funded schools - but the schools then have to provide all the children's educational needs !

dartboardio · 08-09-2018 4:24pm

I won’t be paying it for my kids and will be questioning it.

When I went to school they would send out letters looking for it if you hadn’t paid it. And of course the crazy prices to rent a locker. € 150 for the year for a bloody locker they have for free. That’s like renting a desk

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:32pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

this is part of living in a low tax economy. low tax economy? Yes. We have about a million workers who pay no income tax. none. zilch. we have very low corporation tax. at the same time we play it the socialist utopia with un-means-tested child benefits and generous social welfare. we give 100% free travel to a over a million people....in Austria OAPs get a 50% discount off public transport and they pay far more income tax than we do. we are a banana republic. we write cheques our ass can't cash.

I am not disagreeing with any of the above commentary. Unlikely say Norway we do not have massive natural resources. We want a Swedish style social welfare state on US level taxation. We promise more and more at election time, with no funding plan to back it up.

But my suggestion on decreasing child benefit to increase school funding is cost neutral on the state. It is simply taking 480 euro a year off each parent in receipt of children's allowance and giving it to the school system to ensure its adequately funded. In turn the school now has to fund all the children's educational needs from this extra grant.

The other issues listed above, on low tax/free houses/ high social welfare etc are for another day

gnf_ireland · 08-09-2018 4:35pm

dartboardio wrote: »

I won’t be paying it for my kids and will be questioning it.

When I went to school they would send out letters looking for it if you hadn’t paid it. And of course the crazy prices to rent a locker. € 150 for the year for a bloody locker they have for free. That’s like renting a desk

With my suggestion there would be no charges for lockers as the school have to provide all educational items without exception !!

Maybe the €150 charge is because not enough people pay it and they have to be funded from somewhere. The school needs a certain amount of money to survive - if it cannot get it from one source, it will get it from another. There is no magic money tree they can pick (sadly). The government have fixed rates for funding

Andy From Sligo · 08-09-2018 8:55pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

With my suggestion there would be no charges for lockers as the school have to provide all educational items without exception !!

Maybe the €150 charge is because not enough people pay it and they have to be funded from somewhere. The school needs a certain amount of money to survive - if it cannot get it from one source, it will get it from another. There is no magic money tree they can pick (sadly). The government have fixed rates for funding

ha - thats a joke in itself - The government have fixed rates for funding !

I have lived in Ireland for 27 years and a lot of schools have always seemed to be underfunded by the government - school buildings falling down, prefab units , no proper lunch halls and free school meals / subsidised meals for the poor - no proper gyms and equipment for exercise - the government seem to under-fund in these departments, so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 4:48pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ha - thats a joke in itself - The government have fixed rates for funding !

I have lived in Ireland for 27 years and a lot of schools have always seemed to be underfunded by the government - school buildings falling down, prefab units , no proper lunch halls and free school meals / subsidised meals for the poor - no proper gyms and equipment for exercise - the government seem to under-fund in these departments, so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

What I meant by fixed rate of funding is there is a certain allocation per student and that is that. I agree that this rate is inadequate, and agree it should be increased.

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Lets talk specifics here - Education gets 10.1bn this year, 13.9% of the overall total.
Child Benefit is 2.08bn - roughly 10% of the social protection budget of 20bn.
Primary Teachers salaries are 2.42bn
Grants to all schools are roughly 526m [438m + 88m]

One of the downside of a low tax economy is there is not enough funding for everything and the shortfall has to be made up somewhere. In the case of education, its the parents (and in some cases teachers) who provide the extra funding.
The options are
- re-divert existing expenditure to education
- increase taxes to cover the increased costs. This means widening the tax net to increase the number of people paying taxes.

I agree 100% that schools are not adequately funded. But I also disagree with spending >2bn on child benefit when education is not funded properly. We should be ensuring our kids are properly educated before anything else.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

so the schools want donations off the parents instead ... instead the schools should be pressurising / lobbying the government even more for funds instead

Surely it is the parents who should be pressurising/lobbying the government to adequately fund schools, rather than the schools themselves.
The parents are the ones who have to make up the shortfall - they have the most to gain from any increase in funding.

ELM327 · 09-09-2018 5:19pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

.............This means widening the tax net to increase the number of people paying taxes...........

That would be a good idea anyway, and regardless of this education issue should be done anyway.

Andy From Sligo · 09-09-2018 5:42pm

gnf_ireland wrote: »

Surely it is the parents who should be pressurising/lobbying the government to adequately fund schools, rather than the schools themselves.
The parents are the ones who have to make up the shortfall - they have the most to gain from any increase in funding.

but, if its the schools citing that they dont get enough money off the government and they have to get the donations from the parents - then the schools must know what they are on about , and they would have the paperwork and balance sheets to show the government where the shortfalls are and the areas where the governments are failing to provide enough money ... parents dont have access to
the schools finances and balance books

byhookorbycrook · 09-09-2018 6:35pm

airy fairy wrote: »

I think few people have an issue with books at school.
In primary, my issue is the workbooks in particular. I have to buy them new every year.
What is wrong with teacher actually preparing work for kids on a board and work being done in a copy? I remember teachers preparing work from main books on a few pages and then getting them photocopied for the class? Too much like hard work I suspect!
I'll gladly buy €300 worth of books for my secondary school child, but chances are, I can't pass them on to my next child. Revision numbers in books are the issue. .

Work is done in copies when the children are older. infants and many children with issues like dyspraxia, dyslexia, processing issues etc. would take forever to transcribe from the board and accuracy would be an issue.
Photocopies also tend to get lost or end up in a ball in the bin or the bottom of a bag covered in Yop. Photocopying isn't free, so will still end up costing money.

In any case, the days of plain handwritten text are well over. Children are used to colourful and well illustrated texts whether online or to handle.

The bottom line is the education is seriously underfunded and parents and schools are being forced to make up the shortfalls.

AndrewJRenko · 09-09-2018 7:01pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

... parents dont have access to
the schools finances and balance books

They do, or they certainly should. One of the obligations on Boards of Management is to share details of the school accounts and finances with the school community.

It doesn't always happen, but parents should certainly look for details proactively if they're not seeing accounts at all.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:23pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

but, if its the schools citing that they dont get enough money off the government and they have to get the donations from the parents - then the schools must know what they are on about , and they would have the paperwork and balance sheets to show the government where the shortfalls are and the areas where the governments are failing to provide enough money ... parents dont have access to the schools finances and balance books

The three schools I have any experience with all issue the parents with the schools accounts at the PA AGM. This shows exactly what they have received during the year and how they have spent it. The PA then do the same with their funds.

There are parent representatives on schools board of management, so there is access to this detail if someone is interested in it.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:30pm

ELM327 wrote: »

That would be a good idea anyway, and regardless of this education issue should be done anyway.

This does not suit the ongoing popular opinion that as a country we can have full services and free everything and either someone else will pay for it, or the magic money tree out the back of Leinster House will pay for it. We always have the Apple money to fall back on !!

The problem is if we did increase USC, for example, we would only half do it and raise it by 1% and would still be only be able to half fund services. It would also result in an immediate public sector wage increase discussion.

At the moment, people do not feel additional taxes will result in better services, so they may as well get the €5 into their pockets per week. It just shows the faith people really have in the government

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 7:34pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The bottom line is the education is seriously underfunded and parents and schools are being forced to make up the shortfalls.

Absolutely, and I genuinely believe money should be diverted from Child Benefit to support it properly. Doing it this way, means the same people are both benefiting from it and paying for it at the same time.

If this was done, and it worked, there may be able to have a reasonable discussion on higher taxes for better services. But for the moment, without a concrete example that would work, then it is a very difficult discussion to have

BeerWolf · 09-09-2018 8:07pm

Went to Sutton Park School with my sister's back in the 90s and early 2000s. They asked for a lot, that most likely ended up in their pockets.

For a ridiculously expensive private school it was an absolute kip, with equipment and facilities that was probably a century old.

gnf_ireland · 09-09-2018 8:27pm

BeerWolf wrote: »

Went to Sutton Park School with my sister's back in the 90s and early 2000s. They asked for a lot, that most likely ended up in their pockets.

For a ridiculously expensive private school it was an absolute kip, with equipment and facilities that was probably a century old.

Fee paying schools are accountable to the parents who pay the fees. If they are expensive and the parent feels they do not get value for money, then they should not send their children there.

Surely a fee paying school is more like a business mentality.

BTW - if you look at the fees charged by schools, you will see a jump in the mid-90's when 3rd level fees were abolished. Fee paying schools took this as an opportunity to increase their fees dramatically !

4ensic15 · 27-09-2018 8:22pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah right thank - i though it was saturday school for french kids - i didnt know about the other bits though.

could you imagine if the kids had to go to school on saturdays over here!

They did until the late '60s when the " free" education came in with the Dept of Education paying the teachers.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-09-2018 12:34am

It's a tax dodge.

If it wasn't voluntary you'd have to pay tax on it too.

Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

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