Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

Andy From Sligo

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Was thinking more secondary school

yeah - so was i haha

na1

What about children being sent to collect money in the residential areas door to door?
Isn't begging illegal here?

Avatar MIA

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

you'd be surprised then what the right amount of pressure and threat of 'not getting in next time' can play a part in changing governments minds and the way they do things

That's fine, by all means actively campaign for it... but, in the mean time don't use it as an 'principle' for not paying in the current year.

Andy From Sligo

na1 wrote: »

What about children being sent to collect money in the residential areas door to door?
Isn't begging illegal here?

what for voluntary contributions for schools .. do they really!

never seen that in my area to be honest - they would have to dodge the other door to door beggars asking for " donation for so and so teacher retiring" and "can you sponsor me for this" and "i'm selling electric in the area, can i ask who you are with at the moment" ... and others

Andy From Sligo

Avatar MIA wrote: »

That's fine, by all means actively campaign for it... but, in the mean time don't use it as an 'principle' for not paying in the current year.

ah dont forget there are an awful lot of people out there who havent got the luxury and finaciality of deciding to pay it or sticking to their principals and not paying out .

so expensive when kids go back to school, if it was only a matter of paying a voluntary contribution and that was the end of it - glad mine are all grown up now .

Avatar MIA

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah dont forget there are an awful lot of people out there who havent got the luxury and finaciality of deciding to pay it or sticking to their principals and not paying out .

so expensive when kids go back to school, if it was only a matter of paying a voluntary contribution and that was the end of it - glad mine are all grown up now .

It's the people that can pay that are possibly more vocal. "The government (which is actually the tax payer) should pay" type.

Hotblack Desiato

Minderbinder wrote: »

I think uniforms are important for the security of the school and safety of everyone inside.

I've heard some crazy justifications for this, but that's definitely the craziest one yet, which is some sort of achievement I suppose. Have half a star.

I suppose that means the teachers should have uniforms too?

Hotblack Desiato

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Having a uniform made things a lot easier.

Easier for who though?

Hardly for the parents who have to buy specific school clothes as well as normal clothes. Especially if they're crested and at complete rip-off prices. Even worse if they have a girl and a boy going to different schools so can't hand down jumpers etc.

The two tossers you mentioned above, their parents are worse. Morons will be morons and even with uniforms there are things like shoes, bags, phones, which then become the new thing for tossers to get obsessed about.

freshpopcorn

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Easier for who though?

Hardly for the parents who have to buy specific school clothes as well as normal clothes. Especially if they're crested and at complete rip-off prices. Even worse if they have a girl and a boy going to different schools so can't hand down jumpers etc.

The two tossers you mentioned above, their parents are worse. Morons will be morons and even with uniforms there are things like shoes, bags, phones, which then become the new thing for tossers to get obsessed about.

As I said I went to a school that had no uniform for junior and senior infants. Parents campaigned for a uniform /tracksuit just after i left it. They got sick of the hassle of having to have loads of clothes for school instead of just throwing a uniform on and they agreed to a crested one.

Neyite

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Easier for who though?

Hardly for the parents who have to buy specific school clothes as well as normal clothes. Especially if they're crested and at complete rip-off prices. Even worse if they have a girl and a boy going to different schools so can't hand down jumpers etc.

I find the uniform easier, I'd say most parents would rather than having ructions in the morning because they wanted to wear X t-shirt and it's in the laundry.

But basic uniforms mind. None of this crested nonsense. Our School has a two-colour uniform and while you can buy a sweatshirt with the logo on it, you can also opt for a generic v-neck jumper or cardigan in the school colour and the rest of it is generic enough that you can buy it where you like.

meeeeh

Crested stuff cost me around 100 Euro for a jumper, cardigan and two sweatshirts. I could also buy non crested stuff and get them to stitch the crest, school also allows no crest but they would be probably the only ones in the school. Anyway I don't think there would be that much of a difference in price. School trousers, shirts, t-shirts and dresses are cheap in comparison to jeans, hoodies and similar. The cost of clothing ours for school is relatively reasonable, the problem for most people is that it's all in one go. I think the uniform has a lot of pluses, epecially in countries where temperatures during the year don't change that much. When you have to shop for seasonal clothing not needing to buy uniforms would be probably cheaper.

r93kaey5p2izun

The school I worked in surveyed parents about the uniform as required by the Minister. Teachers had been pushing for a switch to generic jumpers to reduce costs. The expectation was that we would get lots of complaints about expenses. Instead they demanded a blazer in addition to the crested jumper, a new jumper colour, and a crested tracksuit. They also asked for a strict black shoes only policy where we had no rules about footwear at all. And ties for boys and girls when we had none at all.The reasons given were all about appearances, no concerns about costs. It's a DEIS school in one of the most disadvantaged areas of the country.

The local Educate Together secondary didn't intend to have a uniform as is the norm in their primary schools but parents insisted on one. Fashion shows and all were held to choose it. They chose a traditional uniform with a crested jumper in an unusual colour.

Hotblack Desiato

"A person is smart. People are stupid"

judeboy101

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Ve must crush individuality! CRUSH!!!

I think uniforms and single-sex schooling are both completely mental.

smart uniforms i think a necessity - following the schools colours , but hey if they bloody come from penneys or dunnes what is the harm like!

I have never got same sex schools .. especially in this modern day society - what is it so the pupils focus on the school subjects rather than the opposite sex is it? - is that what they exist for?

Single sex schools outperform mixed sex in every country they co exist. Both in terms of attainment and regression to 3rd level. Tons of peer reviewed research to back it up.

judeboy101

judeboy101 wrote: »

Single sex schools outperform mixed sex in every country they co exist. Both in terms of attainment and regression to 3rd level. Tons of peer reviewed research to back it up.

I thought girls did better in single and boys did better in mixed. That's a vague recollection

endacl

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

you'd be surprised then what the right amount of pressure and threat of 'not getting in next time' can play a part in changing governments minds and the way they do things

This is why we’re crap at long team thinking and getting problems solved. Pandering to the immediate irritation of the electorate.

Grandeeod

In relation to the point about no uniforms being a better solution, I'd disagree. Its not just about arguing over what outfit the child wants to wear, it also leads to crazy competition within schools over the course of 5 days. And if you think there isn't competition, well more fool you. Apart from the inevitable footwear, at least a uniform grounds things to a degree.

meeeeh

judeboy101 wrote: »

Single sex schools outperform mixed sex in every country they co exist. Both in terms of attainment and regression to 3rd level. Tons of peer reviewed research to back it up.

Does it take into consideration private vs public schools, religious ethos and so on. Also do any of studies take into account social development.

judeboy101

meeeeh wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Single sex schools outperform mixed sex in every country they co exist. Both in terms of attainment and regression to 3rd level. Tons of peer reviewed research to back it up.

Does it take into consideration private vs public schools, religious ethos and so on. Also do any of studies take into account social development.

Single sex is almost intrinsically linked to religious ethos. In most countries this means private school, but it also applies to Ireland, where many of the top performing schools are public and single sex. Unfortunately no country in the world matriculates to 3rd level using social development.

meeeeh

judeboy101 wrote: »

Single sex is almost intrinsically linked to religious ethos. In most countries this means private school, but it also applies to Ireland, where many of the top performing schools are public and single sex. Unfortunately no country in the world matriculates to 3rd level using social development.

No but it is important for happy life. It's also completely bogus to compare private schools to public schools and say the difference is the gender policy.

evolving_doors

Jeez are we really doing the School Uniform debate.... again!!! It's like 1st years introduction to debating in english class again.... and again.

rainbowtrout

screamer wrote: »

Course they do....they write them for the greedy book publishers.... (For a nice fee I'd bet). What I am saying is that these books should be written for and published by the education department and done at a more nominal cost. With every child in every year having the same books the price would dramatically decrease.

Not sure why you are calling the publishers greedy. They are private businesses, the dept of education are perfectly capable of hiring people to write books if they want to and making them the standard text for all schools and choose not to. In the absence of department published texts of course private publishers are going to step in.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is a problem here in that those who make decisions about choosing books are not the ones paying the bill at the end of the day. Teachers need to pay more attention to cost, and indeed weight of books when making those choices.

Some textbooks are better than others. Do you want your child to have the cheap but poor quality textbook or the slightly more expensive one, with all the information that is required for their course, laid out in a suitable manner?

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I suppose in the past , teachers have been viewed as one of the most decent upstanding pillars of society and wouldn't dream of absconding it and using it for any other purpose than its intended purpose saying "thank you for your contribution, I will look after that envelope of 250euro and make sure it goes to the correct place"

I don't know any teachers responsible for collecting school contributions. Parents pay contributions to the school secretary.

Tegan Clumsy Fashion wrote: »

The school I worked in surveyed parents about the uniform as required by the Minister. Teachers had been pushing for a switch to generic jumpers to reduce costs. The expectation was that we would get lots of complaints about expenses. Instead they demanded a blazer in addition to the crested jumper, a new jumper colour, and a crested tracksuit. They also asked for a strict black shoes only policy where we had no rules about footwear at all. And ties for boys and girls when we had none at all.The reasons given were all about appearances, no concerns about costs. It's a DEIS school in one of the most disadvantaged areas of the country.

The local Educate Together secondary didn't intend to have a uniform as is the norm in their primary schools but parents insisted on one. Fashion shows and all were held to choose it. They chose a traditional uniform with a crested jumper in an unusual colour.

Same as. Parents and students were surveyed in the school I work in and overwhelmingly voted to keep the crested uniform. Parents want less hassle and rows about clothes. They don't want their kids whinging about what to wear in the morning and their kids don't want to have to compete with other kids in school. And what is alluded to above, it is a status symbol for some, the uniform identifies what school you choose to send your child to, for whatever reasons, be that the fee paying school where you've dropped €5k a year to send them there, or the local convent/CBS which would be considered a cut above the local vocational school by many.

Some parts of the uniform might be expensive but kids are wearing them 5 days a week for nine months of the year. They get more wear out of those clothes more than anything else they own. I never hear parents complain about the cost of premier league football jerseys that change every season.

judeboy101

meeeeh wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Single sex is almost intrinsically linked to religious ethos. In most countries this means private school, but it also applies to Ireland, where many of the top performing schools are public and single sex. Unfortunately no country in the world matriculates to 3rd level using social development.

No but it is important for happy life. It's also completely bogus to compare private schools to public schools and say the difference is the gender policy.

Yet the top single sex public schools out perform private mixed schools. I would have thought a good education was more highly correlated to a happy life, than social development.

meeeeh

judeboy101 wrote: »

Yet the top single sex public schools out perform private mixed schools. I would have thought a good education was more highly correlated to a happy life, than social development.

I would like to see the overwhelming evidence that you claim there is. I tried to Google and mostly found inconclusive stuff with trend for less and less single sex schools.

Andy From Sligo

you know when you deprive say kids from drinking any alcohol whn they are young teenagers and then they have their first legal drink and go over the top and cannot handle their drink and puke up and get leary .... this is what I purport single sex schools to be like lol

Mountainsandh

Grandeeod wrote: »

In relation to the point about no uniforms being a better solution, I'd disagree. Its not just about arguing over what outfit the child wants to wear, it also leads to crazy competition within schools over the course of 5 days. And if you think there isn't competition, well more fool you. Apart from the inevitable footwear, at least a uniform grounds things to a degree.

Thing is, how many character building tough experiences should we strive to spare our children ?

It's just another milestone we're delaying until their young adult years/20s, and then we wonder why that particular age group is worryingly juvenile and messed up.

I grew up in France with no uniform, and I survived.

Andy From Sligo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Thing is, how many character building tough experiences should we strive to spare our children ?

It's just another milestone we're delaying until their young adult years/20s, and then we wonder why that particular age group is worryingly juvenile and messed up.

I grew up in France with no uniform, and I survived.

did you used to go to school on a Saturday?

Mountainsandh

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

did you used to go to school on a Saturday?

Yeah

All primary school, and then in secondary school. Some years in secondary school were a bit easier, where you might only have a double of something on a Saturday morning. Some years were like fecking torture, like double maths, then double history or something on a Saturday morning.

And double was twice 60 minutes, not 40 !

But we had the Wednesday off (full in primary, afternoon in secondary), and gaps in the timetable during the week, so you could be starting at 10 am some days, or finishing at 3pm. (instead of 4 or 5 pm)

Andy From Sligo

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Yeah

All primary school, and then in secondary school. Some years in secondary school were a bit easier, where you might only have a double of something on a Saturday morning. Some years were like fecking torture, like double maths, then double history or something on a Saturday morning.

And double was twice 60 minutes, not 40 !

But we had the Wednesday off (full in primary, afternoon in secondary), and gaps in the timetable during the week, so you could be starting at 10 am some days, or finishing at 3pm. (instead of 4 or 5 pm)

ah right thank - i though it was saturday school for french kids - i didnt know about the other bits though.

could you imagine if the kids had to go to school on saturdays over here!

snor

Voluntary contribution in one of Our local secondary school in Dublin is a very hefty €600 Per child (not per family). Seemingly a lot of this goes on heating the school. Would love to know the percentsge of parents who pay this - have never seen the accounts to calculate. Add to that an expensive, crested uniform including coat, books, money for photocopying, lockers etc and it works out very Expemsive. Seems to be large discrepancy on voluntary contribution amounts between schools.

Mountainsandh

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ah right thank - i though it was saturday school for french kids - i didnt know about the other bits though.

could you imagine if the kids had to go to school on saturdays over here!

It's gone now, the Saturday in France, and there's a bit of an ongoing controversy about a 4 or 5 day week.

I went to school in the 80s, and did my baccalaureat in 1990 I think, or 91.
My timetable would have looked like this :
https://3eme2joliot.skyrock.com/1504065492-Notre-emploi-du-temps.html

AndrewJRenko

Tegan Clumsy Fashion wrote: »

The local Educate Together secondary didn't intend to have a uniform as is the norm in their primary schools but parents insisted on one. Fashion shows and all were held to choose it. They chose a traditional uniform with a crested jumper in an unusual colour.

Compulsory uniform? If so, where is this ET school?

airy fairy

Apologies if this info has been shared already, I can't read back through some pages?!!

I was not aware the schools get the money listed below ....

The State pays a direct capitation grant of €170 per student to each primary school. The State pays the teachers' salaries. Enhanced capitation grants are paid for children with special educational needs in special schools or who attend special classes in mainstream schools. Capitation grants are used for the day-to-day running of schools and for teaching materials and resources.

Primary schools also receive a grant for caretaking and secretarial services (called the Ancillary Services Grant Scheme) and this is €153 per student or €77.50 per student, depending on whether the school gets the full-rate or half-rate grant.

A local contribution was formerly required but has now been abolished.

Each school also receives a book grant. This is €21 per pupil for DEIS schools and €11 per pupil for non- DEIS schools.

Each school gets a grant towards the cost of minor works.

andekwarhola

My wife is on the Parent's Association for our kids' primary school and the parental contribution (a very modest one of 50 quid a family as it's a relatively small school) genuinely is used to bridge budget shortfalls in the school, usually for extra curricular activities, sports and recent stuff like trying to build a new classroom.

Incidentally, there's nowhere near a 100% take-up on the charge (which is genuinely voluntary) despite no child every being left out of any activity.

The PA generally plug the gap by fund raising. The PA comprised of the same few mugs year in year out.

That's all despite it being in no way a deprived area and the plethora of nice cars outside the school. Such is modern life and priorities I guess.

Andy From Sligo

snor wrote: »

Voluntary contribution in one of Our local secondary school in Dublin is a very hefty €600 Per child (not per family). ....

wow :eek: - well that's the most highest voluntary school contribution I have ever heard of to date. - crazy!

screamer

rainbowtrout wrote: »

screamer wrote: »

Course they do....they write them for the greedy book publishers.... (For a nice fee I'd bet). What I am saying is that these books should be written for and published by the education department and done at a more nominal cost. With every child in every year having the same books the price would dramatically decrease.

Not sure why you are calling the publishers greedy. They are private businesses, the dept of education are perfectly capable of hiring people to write books if they want to and making them the standard text for all schools and choose not to. In the absence of department published texts of course private publishers are going to step in.
.

Have you seen the prices they charge... absolute bolloxollogy. You've obviously never had to shell out for them.... And you're a teacher, right? So you'll never see the point of view of the parents who have to pay for all the bolloxollogy.... therein lies the issue.

Hotblack Desiato

What's scandalous is that the books change when the syllabus hasn't. That's purely a money making scam at the expense of parents.

A year after I did the LC a neighbour asked if I still had a particular school book, turned out I did but it was no use to them as the "new edition" had EXACTLY the same content as the older one, literally word for word, but the page size was changed so that all of the page numbers would be off. So the teacher insisted that everyone in the neighbour's son's class had to have the new edition.

rainbowtrout

screamer wrote: »

Have you seen the prices they charge... absolute bolloxollogy. You've obviously never had to shell out for them.... And you're a teacher, right? So you'll never see the point of view of the parents who have to pay for all the bolloxollogy.... therein lies the issue.

You really have the knife in teachers don’t you? I doubt anyone could provide a rational explanation to you that you would accept.

Consider a new novel. Paperback, something by Dan Brown etc, sells by the shedload, doesn’t have pictures, isn’t printed in colour except for the cover, paper quality is what is standard for most novels, slightly rough to the touch. It’ll cost you about €15 on average. If you stump up for the hardback version maybe €25.

Now consider school books. Based on the number of junior cert and leaving cert students sitting exams each year, there are approximately 60,000 students in any one year group nationwide. A
Much smaller pool of customers. Not all of them do the same subjects. Books published are typically printed on good quality paper, it’s glossy, books are printed in colour which make them more engaging for the student, there are plenty of photographs in them which have to be paid for from stock libraries, illustrations and diagrams drawn to aid your child’s learning where an illustrator has to be paid for their work. The author will get a royalty for their work and the publishers will pay to market the book and make some profit on it. Your child will use that book for a minimum of one year, which is the most likely outcome if they are in primary school. They will possibly have that book for 2 years if it is for leaving cert and in junior cert while some courses like maths are split into two books, some courses contain the entire course in one book, e.g. science.

The book I teach from for one of my subjects costs €39.95 and my other subject is €29.95. However the student gets two full years education using those books. Consider third level, there is a registration fee for college of €3k per year, if you had to pay course fees you would be looking at least at another 7k. No books are provided. Students take lecture notes.

I don’t know many items that parents spent €30-40 on that their child has for two years that they can learn so much from and at the end can sell on the books if they bought them. If there is a book rental scheme in the school parents pay a fraction of the price for the books.

I think books of any type are a fantastic investment in a child’s life but many parents never seem to view them this way when paying for textbooks.

By the way you posted earlier in the thread about teachers changing the book every year. They can’t. Publishers are bound by an agreed code of conduct that they will not produce a new edition of a book for four years and when the new edition comes out the previous edition has to remain in print for at least two more years. So new editions are not printed annually. In my two subjects I’ve been using one book for the last 8 years and for my other subject it’s been 5 years

meeeeh

snor wrote: »

Voluntary contribution in one of Our local secondary school in Dublin is a very hefty €600 Per child (not per family). Seemingly a lot of this goes on heating the school. Would love to know the percentsge of parents who pay this - have never seen the accounts to calculate. Add to that an expensive, crested uniform including coat, books, money for photocopying, lockers etc and it works out very Expemsive. Seems to be large discrepancy on voluntary contribution amounts between schools.

That's ridiculous. They are using big tank of diesel per approximately two students. I don't buy this and it's actually unethical, it's public school trying to limit access like private school and working hard to avoid undesirable students.

snor

meeeeh wrote: »

That's ridiculous. They are using big tank of diesel per approximately two students. I don't buy this and it's actually unethical, it's public school trying to limit access like private school and working hard to avoid undesirable students.

Agree, but it's obviously working - school is way over subscribed.

Geuze

There are over 3,200 primary schools in Ireland.

This means 3200 principal salaries and principal pensions, as well as 3200 running costs.

If we insist of having hundreds of small schools, with high costs per pupil, then of course there will be less resources for the capitation grant to each school

LirW

Geuze wrote: »

There are over 3,200 primary schools in Ireland.

This means 3200 principal salaries and principal pensions, as well as 3200 running costs.

If we insist of having hundreds of small schools, with high costs per pupil, then of course there will be less resources for the capitation grant to each school

I get where you're coming from, I'm living rural and within the 10k from my house are 6 primary schools I know of, all serving rural small communities. I don't see the necessity of that many but then again it's simply a space problem, when you close 3 or 4 of them, you don't have the space in the remaining schools to accommodate the amount of children. Ours has around 100 children attending 2 years are together in one room. There wouldn't be any space for an additional 200 students. There wouldn't even be space for pre-fabs since the plots are usually not huge either. That's one of the reasons why they keep status quo.

Hotblack Desiato

Exactly, we have a school system which is needlessly balkanised on the grounds of gender and religion.

Bad news for taxpayers, parents and kids, good news for would-be principals.

Segregating children on the grounds of religion is a really bad idea which the history of this island has provided ample proof of. If we're not extremely careful a certain minority religion will take advantage of our tradition of religious segregation to effectively create a society within a society, rejecting the values of wider society and interacting minimally with it. There are ample examples of where that leads, too.

andekwarhola

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

What's scandalous is that the books change when the syllabus hasn't. That's purely a money making scam at the expense of parents.

A year after I did the LC a neighbour asked if I still had a particular school book, turned out I did but it was no use to them as the "new edition" had EXACTLY the same content as the older one, literally word for word, but the page size was changed so that all of the page numbers would be off. So the teacher insisted that everyone in the neighbour's son's class had to have the new edition.

Everything is 'workbooks' now.

Shorthand for expensive and non-transferable.

AndrewJRenko

Geuze wrote: »

There are over 3,200 primary schools in Ireland.

This means 3200 principal salaries and principal pensions, as well as 3200 running costs.

If we insist of having hundreds of small schools, with high costs per pupil, then of course there will be less resources for the capitation grant to each school

You know that in smaller schools, principals are teaching principals, right? So where are these high costs per pupil coming from?

Andy From Sligo

can we not just get away from workbooks, and other books these days and let the children learn from internet instead - much better for the environment , cheaper, more modern , more exciting for the pupils we are in a modern society and i bet you can learn just as much (if not more) about history , science and whatever by looking on the internet instead of printed books these days.

Remember at one time in schools there used to be blackboards with chalk and erasers , quills with ink pots and loads of other things that have been taken over by modern practices - there are a lot of modern practices why are kids still going to school with bags on their backs full of books?

I dunno something like tablets or something should be used these days at every desk or something these days. will there ever be a day books are eradicated at every class? - some other countries around the world have done it , why can we over here not make the leap?

josip

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

My children are all grown up now but i remember this 'voluntary contribution' their schools were looking for around about this time when they went back to school after their summer holidays. - do you agree with it?

Yes

Andy From Sligo

josip wrote: »

Yes

oh , do please feel free to elaborate if you wish!

Geuze

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You know that in smaller schools, principals are teaching principals, right? So where are these high costs per pupil coming from?

Excessive running costs due to not exploiting economies of scale.

Example: one parish near me has 5 schools.

Reduce to two.

Energy / maintenance / insurance / all overheads - these will all fall, per pupil.

Principals are paid extra, these allowances would fall.

mloc123

Looking forward to the move from paying €12,000 a year in creche fees to only having to pay a few hundred on uniform and contributions. ..