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Do you agree to this 'voluntary contribution' the schools ask for?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,446 ✭✭✭✭ Hotblack Desiato


    Why is it crazy exactly? Do you even understand what you’re talking about or why you are suggesting it’s crazy?

    Do you think it’s important for staff to be able to recognise a student of the school? The uniform and crest is important in this regard as is everything that makes it more difficult for random people entering a school. I personally think a school trousers would be better than some baggy trousers that could more easily conceal weapons or multiple weapons. Of course Ireland is not USA, but we’re heavily influenced by them and school security is important regardless of how small the threat might be.

    Uniforms create a sense of equality in a school. Plain clothes create disparity among students, creates visually defined groups and creates resentment between groups and students who don’t belong to any group.

    As for your point about teachers requiring uniforms. Well that’s just stupid. Teachers are recognised by almost everyone in a school. Although I would say schools in Ireland are far too open to intruders. It is certainly true that in most schools an adult can basically walk into the school without any questions asked and come into contact with students. IMO there should be a security guard at the entrances to schools but they’ll probably wait until after something happens.

    Most people will think I’m getting carried away, I get that. It’s usually the case and then when something happens everyone will be up in arms asking how people can so easily walk into a school with a knife or a gun or whatever.

    Wow. You're trying to solve a problem which doesn't exist by importing inappropriate 'solutions' from America which don't even work over there.

    Uniforms don't create equality when they are unnecessarily expensive, it puts an excessive burden on less well off families, for some schools the expensive uniform is only there for the snob factor.

    Anyone can walk into a university campus, do we need security measures there too? Maybe third level students should be wearing unforms?

    Anyone can walk into a church, do we need security measures there too?

    Anyone can walk into a shopping centre, do we need security measures there too?

    Your post is a load of paranoid nonsense from start to finish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    airy fairy wrote: »
    A lot of lazy teaching and learning these days.
    I'm not teacher bashing, just a simple observation through the years.
    Have you observed a lot about what happens in the classroom?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭ PowerToWait


    Thread needs more teacher bashing. Come on Andy, get stirring. Your earlier attempts were valiant but obviously more effort required


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,019 ✭✭✭✭ freshpopcorn


    I know a teacher who tried to reduce work boots on the school book list.
    She was given out to for having to much writing and for the kids having pages that got lost/etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭ PowerToWait


    Have you observed a lot about what happens in the classroom?

    He has been to school and is therefore an expert.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭ judeboy101


    airy fairy wrote: »
    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Children are very slow to take work down.
    30 children all struggling to take work down?

    However did we manage with 30 to 40 kids in a class taking work down from a blackboard!!!!!!
    A good hawthorn stick, that's how. There is a reasons my generation knew their times table by 2nd class and a reason they don't bother now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,019 ✭✭✭✭ freshpopcorn


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    A good hawthorn stick, that's how. There is a reasons my generation knew their times table by 2nd class and a reason they don't bother now.

    If it was such a good thing then.
    Why do we often read stories or hear them on TV about how horrible there schooling was due to the physical abuse in schools as a form of discipline.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    The oecd /pisa data backs up the when ict is used to replaced traditional teaching methods e.g books, copies, paper+pen, black/whiteboard, there is actually a decrease in attainment.


    I don't think that report is a great comparison. Comparing investment in schools ICT without comparing other variables, like classroom size, teacher training, parental education etc doesn't really give a fair comparison.


    Having said that, a lot of schools ICT investment had been misdirected or mishandled. A huge amount of money has gone into hardware - typically tablets - with very little money going into software or training. Tablets aren't necessarily the best device either - they are really designed for 'consuming' ICT rather than full engagement. They generally don't have a great keyboard, so if you're going to be doing proper 'essay question' responses, they're not the right device.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    A good hawthorn stick, that's how. There is a reasons my generation knew their times table by 2nd class and a reason they don't bother now.
    Do you beat many people in your daily life, Jude? Or just small people?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    you gotta be cruel to be kind :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    Thread needs more teacher bashing. Come on Andy, get stirring. Your earlier attempts were valiant but obviously more effort required

    true, observation though - i still maintain that there are a lot of fossil dinosaur teachers about the place ... you know, the ones that should have retired ages ago - they would never allow a different way of teaching especially using tablets or any other technology.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,019 ✭✭✭✭ freshpopcorn


    true, observation though - i still maintain that there are a lot of fossil dinosaur teachers about the place ... you know, the ones that should have retired ages ago - they would never allow a different way of teaching especially using tablets or any other technology.

    I get where your coming from but these are in every profession.
    They biggest issue for me with teachers is they become teachers and they don't relies what they are getting themselves into.
    They don't relies the paper work that is needed.
    How they've to deal with parents as well as the tricky kids.
    How a classroom actually works. From dealing with kids every day to the laws of what they can and can't do regarding giving a punishment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,640 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    The way we teach is often a response to what is coming in to us. Remember having a chat with the home economics teacher a few years ago and she was telling me about her first cookery class with the first years that year. She had asked them to wash their bowls in the sink and going around the kitchen discovered many of them putting them on the draining board face up full of water. Many had never washed a bowl in their life and didn’t understand the concept of allowing dishes to drain. Their response? We have a dishwasher and my mother loads it.

    A lot of parents do not give their children life skills and do everything for them. This translates to the classroom as some not having enough cop on to figure out how to do things. I teach science and in my first lesson was doing some lab safety. Only about 2 of the students in my class had ever lit a match and some of them were terrified of them. These are 12 year olds.

    Sometimes we have to adapt to get material taught

    Yes life skills are important but I remember a schoolmate who at 16 couldn't find a pan in their kitchen. She was a top achiever in our class, she had good gasp current affairs, excellent general knowledge and is now constitutional lawyer working for supreme court. I think she managed to get over her lack of cooking abilities.

    Kids might not know how to use matches but I wouldn't even know where to buy them today. Does anyone still use them instead of lighters? I'm pretty sure the same kids would be well able to light a cigarette or a joint. :D

    I think it's important to put things into perspective, it will be fairly easy to figure out how to dry dishes or fill a dishwasher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,086 ✭✭✭ James Bond Junior


    I did cooking with my class. First dish was scrambled egg on toast, I had 12 year olds unable to butter a slice of toast as "their parents always did them for them."


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,226 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Yes life skills are important but I remember a schoolmate who at 16 couldn't find a pan in their kitchen. She was a top achiever in our class, she had good gasp current affairs, excellent general knowledge and is now constitutional lawyer working for supreme court. I think she managed to get over her lack of cooking abilities.

    Kids might not know how to use matches but I wouldn't even know where to buy them today. Does anyone still use them instead of lighters? I'm pretty sure the same kids would be well able to light a cigarette or a joint. :D

    I think it's important to put things into perspective, it will be fairly easy to figure out how to dry dishes or fill a dishwasher.


    I use matches to light my stove in the evening as I’m sure many people do. Kids probably don’t know how to light a cigarette as so few smoke these days. Price has largely put it out of their reach.

    You say these are easily learned skills yet it didn’t occur to any of them to turn the bowl upside down to let it dry.

    Having everything done for them at home translates to many of them being quite helpless at school. E.g (and this has happened in my class countless times) student:I have no biro’
    Me: ‘have you considered asking the person next to you for a loan of one?’
    Student: ‘oh right’

    This is a regular occurrence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    in a way it always nearly amazed me how itinerants when I were growing up never went to school but learnt stuff fine (sure some of them might not have been able to read or spell stuff properly, but that happens with people who went to school too) - it was only when I moved to Ireland that most Itinerant/traveller children attended school the same as other children on a regular basis , I found it strange because as i say you would never get a traveller kid attend school in the UK when i was growing up and going to school. I dont know if its that the school wouldnt have them or that the travelers never hung around long enough in one place.

    Does anyone know if traveler children attend UK schools these days?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭ judeboy101


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    The oecd /pisa data backs up the when ict is used to replaced traditional teaching methods e.g books, copies, paper+pen, black/whiteboard, there is actually a decrease in attainment.


    I don't think that report is a great comparison. Comparing investment in schools ICT without comparing other variables, like classroom size, teacher training, parental education etc doesn't really give a fair comparison.


    Having said that, a lot of schools ICT investment had been misdirected or mishandled. A huge amount of money has gone into hardware - typically tablets - with very little money going into software or training. Tablets aren't necessarily the best device either - they are really designed for 'consuming' ICT rather than full engagement. They generally don't have a great keyboard, so if you're going to be doing proper 'essay question' responses, they're not the right device.
    Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.

    report away if they like - I would still like to see if there a difference between teaching someone at home using the internet and real life experiences than going to school and being taught by a 'proper' teacher ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,019 ✭✭✭✭ freshpopcorn


    report away if they like - I would still like to see if there a difference between teaching someone at home using the internet and real life experiences than going to school and being taught by a 'proper' teacher ...

    The media are doing a fantastic job at making kids afraid of the internet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,640 ✭✭✭✭ meeeeh


    I use matches to light my stove in the evening as I’m sure many people do. Kids probably don’t know how to light a cigarette as so few smoke these days. Price has largely put it out of their reach.

    You say these are easily learned skills yet it didn’t occur to any of them to turn the bowl upside down to let it dry.

    Having everything done for them at home translates to many of them being quite helpless at school. E.g (and this has happened in my class countless times) student:I have no biro’
    Me: ‘have you considered asking the person next to you for a loan of one?’
    Student: ‘oh right’

    This is a regular occurrence.

    Don't get me wrong I don't like helplessness in kids but I think helicopter parenting is more worrying for emotional development of kids and their confidence to try things on their own. They will quickly learn how to butter the toast if they are alone at home and hungry. I'm half suspicious our 5 year old is so good at buttering her crackers because she is so picky and has a habit of sneaking into the kitchen and eating crackers with butter after she didn't eat her dinner. Mechanics are relatively easy to learn when needed it's the lack of ability to try and fail and try again that's often missing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,019 ✭✭✭✭ freshpopcorn


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong I don't like helplessness in kids but I think helicopter parenting is more worrying for emotional development of kids and their confidence to try things on their own. They will quickly learn how to butter the toast if they are alone at home and hungry. I'm half suspicious our 5 year old is so good at buttering her crackers because she is so picky and has a habit of sneaking into the kitchen and eating crackers with butter after she didn't eat her dinner. Mechanics are relatively easy to learn when needed it's the lack of ability to try and fail and try again that's often missing.

    This is an example.
    I was going to school we'd have a fight about who got to light the candle now nobody wants to do it with the fear of cracking matches and classroom burning down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.
    Not sure why you think it is 'uncomfortable' - I've never heard anyone suggesting that technology would replace a teacher.


    Good use of technology can be helpful in a classrom for sure - that's very different from suggesting it would replace a teacher, which is a fairly nonsensical idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,095 ✭✭✭ Fuaranach


    Probably alone in the western world, about 85% of the student population of Ireland can, like their parents, truthfully declare that they have a private school education by virtue of the vast majority of schools being in the ownership of the private international business, and collaborator in concealing mass child abuse from the Irish state, known as the Roman Catholic Church.

    A mere 'voluntary contribution' is surely a small price to pay for such a bragging right.

    ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,474 ✭✭✭✭ snoopsheep


    Fuaranach wrote: »
    Probably alone in the western world, about 85% of the student population of Ireland can, like their parents, truthfully declare that they have a private school education by virtue of the vast majority of schools being in the ownership of the private international business, and collaborator in concealing mass child abuse from the Irish state, known as the Roman Catholic Church.

    A mere 'voluntary contribution' is surely a small price to pay for such a bragging right.

    ...

    my god a take as scorching hot as the sun itself *dons raybans*


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭ judeboy101


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Oecd pisa is the gold standard with regards to education. That report gave an uncomfortable truth, that no amount of tech can replace the teacher.
    Not sure why you think it is 'uncomfortable' - I've never heard anyone suggesting that technology would replace a teacher.


    Good use of technology can be helpful in a classrom for sure - that's very different from suggesting it would replace a teacher, which is a fairly nonsensical idea.
    Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.
    Technology is the best way to get teachers away from admin work to actual teaching work. Just like many, many other industries, technology is pretty good at managing routine admin tasks, if managed and implemented properly.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭ judeboy101


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Our governments policy is to reduce teacher student contact from one of the highest in the oecd to one of the lowest, technology will facilitate this by, for example, correcting tests/hw using software rather than teacher. Less contact time means gov can get teachers to do more admin like in other oecd countries. Irish teachers perform the lowest level of admin duties of 32 oecd countries.
    Technology is the best way to get teachers away from admin work to actual teaching work. Just like many, many other industries, technology is pretty good at managing routine admin tasks, if managed and implemented properly.
    Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,145 ✭✭✭✭ AndrewJRenko


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.


    All of these require input from the teacher. The teacher is the person with expert knowledge. Good technology will make it easy to capture, store and reuse the information, instead of fiddling round with sheets of paper.


    For the record, you're not the only one complaining about more admin work. I've heard the same gripes from Gardai, from architects, and engineers, from data protection officials and all kinds of office staff. Usually, this is a matter of accountability and tracking, which lots of people would prefer to avoid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,712 ✭✭✭✭ Andy From Sligo


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job and do more of the ancillary work.

    Gardai - years ago they used to arrest people and leave the paperwork and that to others (secretaries and office workers) but these days are bogged down with paperwork and office work along with their jobs ...


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭ judeboy101


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Actually it isn't. It takes time to update rolls, results, tracking, discipline etc. A lot of these jobs were done by management or post holders. This cost the gov money. Now those jobs are done by teachers using teaching time taken from them by the government. Name one other job where the policy is to make you do less of the job (teaching) and do more of the ancillary work.


    All of these require input from the teacher. The teacher is the person with expert knowledge. Good technology will make it easy to capture, store and reuse the information, instead of fiddling round with sheets of paper.


    For the record, you're not the only one complaining about more admin work. I've heard the same gripes from Gardai, from architects, and engineers, from data protection officials and all kinds of office staff. Usually, this is a matter of accountability and tracking, which lots of people would prefer to avoid.
    I'd rather my Gardaí police then pencil push, id rather my docs and nurses cure me than fill out countless forms and id rather teachers teach my kids for 740hrs a year, than for 650.just look at how admin technology has destroyed teaching in the UK. The burnout rate is crazy due to the pressure to track and record every aspect of students lives. All using the latest admin software that supposedly makes it "easier".


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