So who's going to see the Pope?

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 12:40PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

And clearly, this church is turning a blind eye to wholesale breaking of it's rules but will insist that it's archaic dogma and rules are followed in education and health infrastructure they are involved in.

Hypocrisy of the highest order yet again from the Holy See.

Avatar MIA · 27-08-2018 12:41PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

... and identify as Catholic.

But not act like one.

Bit like Jew's, culturally from a certain religion, but many not practicing.

murpho999 · 27-08-2018 12:45PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

If you are Catholic, and identify as Catholic then you have to follow their beliefs and rules.

You don't have a choice on this.

If you don't believe in the stuff they preach then don't support them and identify as Christian and don't associate to a church.

....... · 27-08-2018 12:46PM

If baptism was no longer a requirement for most schools and the HSE opened up civil marriages to be available on Saturdays and Sundays (and bank holidays) I think we would see an even bigger shift away from the Church for the "cultural" stuff.

Theres definitely a market gap out there for non religious funerals. I have attended a number in recent years in churches where the families have said they only used a church because of the lack of other options.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 12:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And clearly, this church is turning a blind eye to wholesale breaking of it's rules....

Quite the contrary, in fact. The pope's own Amoris Laetitia acknowledges that gay Catholics, divorced Catholics, single parents, and others who do not fit the traditional mold deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. It urges clergy to “avoid judgements which do not take into account the complexity of various situations.” It says that people should not be “pigeonholed or fit into overly rigid classifications leaving no room for personal and pastoral discernment.” They should avoid “thinking that everything is black and white” and should not "simply apply moral laws to those living in 'irregular' situations, as if they were stones to throw at people’s lives."

kunst nugget · 27-08-2018 12:49PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

According to you, someone can be Catholic only if they vote against abortion, don't use contraceptives, don't have sex before marriage, don't support same-sex marriage, and follow to the letter of the law every other pronouncement or teaching the Church has ever made.

In short, you have a list of purity tests that someone must pass before he or she can identify as a Catholic.

Which is simply silly. There are clearly many people who have sex before marriage, use contraception, support gay marriage, etc., and still go to church and identify as Catholic.

The problem is that even though they may identify as Catholics, they can't be considered properly practising Catholics in the eyes of the church. Sex before marriage is considered a mortal sin and contraception would be considered one by many people as well.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 12:52PM

murpho999 wrote: »

If you are Catholic, and identify as Catholic then you have to follow their beliefs and rules.

I think Pope Francis himself would disagree with that, given his own emphasis on a Church that offers empathy and comfort rather than one that imposes rigid codes of conduct.

kunst nugget · 27-08-2018 12:52PM

....... wrote: »

If baptism was no longer a requirement for most schools I think we would see an even bigger shift away from the Church for the "cultural" stuff.

The new School Admissions Bill means that oversubscribed schools cannot discriminate based on religion so that's not going to be an excuse anymore.

Beechwoodspark · 27-08-2018 12:53PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Yes, look at what's "right there in the article" that you yourself linked.

What does the article actually say?

-- Young Irish adults practice their faith in surprisingly large numbers.
-- The decline of religion in Ireland is overstated.
-- 24 percent of young Irish (16-29) attend mass weekly, per the ESS.
-- Ireland is "extremely Catholic .. by any normal comparison."

And yet you're citing this article as proof of the spectacular collapse of Catholicism. :pac:

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 12:54PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

The problem is that even though they may identify as Catholics, they can't be considered properly practising Catholics in the eyes of the church. Sex before marriage is considered a mortal sin and contraception would be considered one by many people as well.

Pope Francis has admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

ohnonotgmail · 27-08-2018 12:55PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.

The amount of power it exerts over our education and healthcare systems is not indicative of how catholic this country is. Catholic in name only not in practice.

murpho999 · 27-08-2018 12:55PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

I think Pope Francis himself would disagree with that, given his own emphasis on a Church that offers empathy and comfort rather than one that imposes rigid codes of conduct.

Then he needs to change the rules.

I don't think the pope in any way supports gay marriage, abortion or contraception.

It still baffles me that people need the church at all in their lives.

Trasna1 · 27-08-2018 12:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The fall is spectacular.
1n 1990 81% said they attended weekly mass. Extrapolate what that percentage fall means...
Another 20 years at this rate and mass will be in a phone box, if you can find one of them.

It really depends on your frame of reference. Going from 80% to 20ish% is indeed a spectacular fall, but when you put it in the context of the wider economy and society in how we have equalised and surpassed the European average in many other societal indices - it has held up surprisingly well - but it has to be acknowledged it is being largely supported by a base whose faith formation preceded the liberalisation of Irelands economy and society. Catholicism in Ireland is dying in it's beds.

In terms of whether the numbers attending the event in the Phoenix Park were important - yes the numbers matter very much. One of the main points of the papal visit was to show Catholics in Ireland that after many years of being at the pointed end of scandal, and after losing two referendums was to show that they were still a sizeable cohort, that they mattered. To be perfectly honest, (rain notwithstanding) before the official attendance is released, there was obviously significantly less than half the expected crowd there. So rather than it being the hoped for show of strength, it turned out to be a show of weakness. If after loss of the 8th there were still questions over how relevant the Catholic caucus was, it has been answered in a clear - it does not.

The real smooth running of the event can possibly be put down in no small part to the overstaffing. But it was run well too to be fair. In relation to tickets, it must have been clear to event control that the numbers weren't materialising early on so overcrowding was never going to be an issue and therefore the idea of ticket checks was abandoned. I did enjoy the day however, and it was a nice experience.

Crowd estimation is hard so I'm reluctant to put a figure on it, but when it is released it will be extremely disappointing for the organisers.

Avatar MIA · 27-08-2018 12:58PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Pope Francis haes admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

So, you can get into heaven by claiming rather than acting like a Catholic. Good to know.

Beechwoodspark · 27-08-2018 12:58PM

Lots of ppl are not at all devout but still adamant they are Catholics.

jmayo · 27-08-2018 12:59PM

NIMAN wrote: »

In the great scheme of things, it was a flop.

There will be some who defend it like their lives depend on it, but it was a flop, end of.

Just to rock the boat, places exist outside Dublin.
And just in case some of the cosmopolitans dare swing the attendance that did show up as the culchies turning out, the culchies stayed away in droves this time, just like their city counterparts.

Rath than just concentrate on just the Phoenix Park and how much lower it was than the over 1 million in 1979.

Lets look at the rest.

The pope went to Drogheda where there were something like 300,000.
When he came back to Dublin there were over 500,000 out on the streets to greet him.

When he visited Clonmacnoise there were nearly 20,000 people.

He visited Ballybirt where there were 200,000 young people that he professed he loved.
Of course we were later to find out a lot of his priests loved young people in a different way. :rolleyes:
Oh and the two high profile clergy he shared the altar with had kids.

He then went on to Knock where there were something like 450,000.
My mother and most of our neighbours included.
And to dispel the myth being put out now about the weather having major affect on attendances, the weather that day in Knock was shyte.
As a kid at home, I couldn't even see the cattle in the fields due to the mist and drizzle.
Still happier than sitting waiting to see the pope 30 miles away in Knock.

And the crowds this time in Knock by all accounts were even shy of the 45,000 expected and planned for.

When the pope in 1979 visited Maynooth seminary there were supposedly something like 50,000 there.

And he then finished off the visit with Limerick racecourse another 400,000 odd were there.

All in all the pope in 1979 was greeted by something in the region of nearly 2.5 million people out of a population of roughly 3.5 million.

This time he might have been greeted by 300,000 odd.

I would equate it to the once great rock or pop act that filled out Croke Park, but now bearly fill the Olympia.

The times have changed.

27-08-2018 01:00PM

The CC are still covering up child care abuse. News reports saying one of the pedo priests from the latest scandal in the US was retired from public services by the CC. Only to be sent then sent to China and Cuba..

Also its alledged the CC top brass knew all about it.

Nothing to see here. It's only children..

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 01:04PM

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't think the pope in any way supports gay marriage, abortion or contraception.

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.

It still baffles me that people need the church at all in their lives.

Well, many do want and need it. It's a personal decision.

kunst nugget · 27-08-2018 01:05PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

Pope Francis has admitted that the Church in the past church has made mistakes in alienating people with rigid rules and a harshly judgmental attitude. He's not saying, "If you don't do X, Y, and Z, you can't be a Catholic." Quite the opposite.

Pope Francis has made certain pronouncements that seem to run completely contrary to Canon Law and which have caused considerable consternation with some cardinals and Catholic scholars.

amdublin · 27-08-2018 01:05PM

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Ireland is a very catholic country. Just look at the education system, the healthcare system alone. Regardless of whether they go to mass or not the Irish are cultural Catholics to some degree or other.

There are (a lot) of people out there who object to the examples you gave.

It's a bit ridiculous. The church and state must be separated imo.

People can continue to choose their religion/faith/church etc.

But Catholicism is definitely fading in Ireland imo.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 01:08PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Pope Francis has made certain pronouncements that seem to run completely contrary to Canon Law and which have caused considerable consternation with some cardinals and Catholic scholars.

Yes, and he should be applauded for it, in my view. He is the most forward-thinking pope in a very long time, and is more than willing to acknowledge the many mistakes that the church has made in the past.

Currache · 27-08-2018 01:09PM

Not me anyway!

harr · 27-08-2018 01:13PM

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 01:14PM

seamus wrote: »

You added the "16-29" part, the article doesn't qualify what "Young Irish" is, nor does it clarify what the ESS defines it as.

The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.

I'm just using the figures that I can find.

And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

FrancieBrady · 27-08-2018 01:16PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The pope has said in a recent interview: "It is not necessary to talk about [abortion, gay marriage and contraception] all the time. The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

In short, there's much more to being a Catholic, in the eyes of Pope Francis, than "following the rules" on a narrow spectrum of issues.

.

So what was all the objection and campaigning against the recent referendums about?

I will tell you what it was - this hypocritical church saying one thing while doing another in actuality and reality. Lying and waffling to cover the truth.

It is what has plagued it and led to it's stunning decline and it seems no closer to solving that on this Monday than it was last Monday and the Monday before.

You are witnessing the end of something not the begining.

27-08-2018 01:17PM

harr wrote: »

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

The CC are decades behind the developing world.

Glad they are dying off in Ireland. They have twisted views and cover up child abuse. Sick.

hatrickpatrick · 27-08-2018 01:17PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh never underestimate the power of faith and ultimately hope, catholicism isn't dead yet

Isn't that the issue, though? Right wing Catholicism has managed to totally separate "faith" and "hope" and place them diametrically opposed to one another, by vilifying a universal and unavoidable aspect of being a human. It's difficult to see the message of Catholicism as a "hopeful" one when there are sincere prachers within Catholicism who think that even entertaining the thought that someone you're looking at is sexually attractive is something you have to go home and desperately plead forgiveness for in order to avoid ending up burning for all eternity.

Again I can only speak for myself, but my estrangement from Catholicism as a teenager was precisely because I couldn't reconcile the idea that Catholicism was a "positive" or "hopeful" message when there were so many voices interpreting that "adultery in one's heart" passage to mean "have a crush on a girl in school, find her sexy? Congratulations, you're now in God's bad books."

The message around this needs to fundamentally change or it will never again resonate in a world which has moved on from seeing deliberately self-inflicted suffering and anguish as a positive virtue.

Trasna1 · 27-08-2018 01:20PM

jmayo wrote: »

He then went on to Knock where there were something like 450,000.
My mother and most of our neighbours included.
And to dispel the myth being put out now about the weather having major affect on attendances, the weather that day in Knock was shyte.
As a kid at home, I couldn't even see the cattle in the fields due to the mist and drizzle.
Still happier than sitting waiting to see the pope 30 miles away in Knock.
d.

As someone who has intimate knowledge of the running of a free public event (obviously nothing close to this scale) weather has a huge impact on attendance - though it wouldnt want to point the finger at that as the reason for poor attendance yesterday. The reason probably knocked a couple of percent off the attendance at most - since attending this had to be planned for.

One of the more significant barriers to attending would have been the long walks involved. As I said in my previous post, many of the most devout are elderly and therefore wouldn't have been fit for the day, so didn't go. This obviously contrasts with 79 when it was a broad following the CC had. That visit though was cloaked in positivity and generated it's own momentum which had a huge impact on turnout. The same can't be said for this one.

The size of the crowd will probably reflect how the Catholic Church see itself and it's congregation size in about 10 years, when today's old and infirm are gone.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 27-08-2018 01:22PM

harr wrote: »

So the pope was asked about Leo’s comments about new types of family in Ireland (same sex couples) the popes reply was to open dialogue with a child who might think they are gay and to include psychiatric if possible.
That was said in the interview on the plane as he departed Ireland..

To the question on how a family should treat a gay or lesbian child, the pope said: "To ignore a son or daughter with homosexual tendencies is a lack of paternity and maternity. You are my son, you are my daughter as you are! I’m your father, mother. Let’s talk! And if you, father and mother aren’t up to it, ask for help, but always in dialogue because that son and that daughter have the right to a family and that family of not being chased out of the family."

This is a message of acceptance. He's telling parents who reject gay children that they are not fulfilling their parental role. He's telling gay children that they too have the right to a family. So where's the problem?

ohnonotgmail · 27-08-2018 01:25PM

Camila Famous Granule wrote: »

The 16-29 part is indeed in the article, as the definition of what is meant by young adults. You must have overlooked it, along with all the other parts you somehow managed to overlook.

And yet you somehow managed to miss the headline figure in the article. Let me quote it for you again, from the second paragraph: "around 24% of young people attend Mass weekly, according to the latest figures from the European Social Survey (ESS)."

I posted the actual ESS figures earlier.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and yet the actual figures don't say that at all. I suspect that he is, in the parlance of the youth, talking out of his hoop

So who's going to see the Pope?

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