Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

whiskeyman · 22-08-2018 07:50PM

KD345 wrote: »

70% of Dublin Bus passengers use Leap.

Anyone else think this is low?
Does the remaining 30% include cash only, or a mix of free pass / other cards?
I only use the bus a handful of times a year but still have a leap card.

There really is no valid argument for cash.

Qrt · 22-08-2018 07:52PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Robert Troy complaining about this happening before a cashless system is introduced.

What's Leap?

I despair

Was this on 98FM too?

DivingDuck · 22-08-2018 08:01PM

gctest50 wrote: »

iPhones can't encode data onto a tag, Android can - Apple are supposed to be enabling it this year

Not a Leap card / app problem, more a phone manufacturer with notions

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately Apple have decided not to allow their NFC functionality to work with apps from external companies so there is nothing that the NTA can do about this particular issue until Apple stop trying to control everything so much and give their customers a bit more freedom to decide how they want to use their device.

Apple are not the problem here. Dublin Bus is aware that not all of its customers have access to an NFC device, and should not be relying on this feature to allow customers to top up their cards.

Apple is not a small brand with a tiny market share, but beyond that: not all Android phones can do this, either. Many of the budget models can't (as I discovered when trying to get an NFC enabled phone for under 200e). A lot of bus users (especially younger ones and those on a restricted income) will be using a budget phone. Between the iPhone/dumbphone/budget Android users, there's a decent proportion of Dublin Bus customers who don't have access to an NFC device.

The Leap system is great for the rail lines, where they can be topped up at stations, but it's hopeless for the bus system where sometimes you would have to add a long time to your journey to top up, and that's assuming the top-up points are even open. Considering a lot of them in the suburbs are small shops that might close at 6pm, that's not helpful. My old top-up point meant a 30 minute walk (ten minutes away from my house, ten back, then another ten to the bus stop), always closed at 6pm, and shut its doors for good in the last year or two. I've no idea where my nearest point is now, which to me shows how restrictive and unhelpful the system is from a consumer's point of view.

gctest50 wrote: »

The fact is we have a 20 year old ticketing system, new functionality needs new ticket machines so we either adapt what functionality we have or make no changes at all until new machines come along.

I completely appreciate that there are technical limitations with the current system, but as you admit here: they could have gone with making no changes until they had better technology. This would have been much more reasonable and fairer to the customer.

They chose poorly.

BonnieSituation · 22-08-2018 08:10PM

DivingDuck wrote: »

Apple are not the problem here. Dublin Bus is aware that not all of its customers have access to an NFC device, and should not be relying on this feature to allow customers to top up their cards.

Apple is not a small brand with a tiny market share, but beyond that: not all Android phones can do this, either. Many of the budget models can't (as I discovered when trying to get an NFC enabled phone for under 200e). A lot of bus users (especially younger ones and those on a restricted income) will be using a budget phone. Between the iPhone/dumbphone/budget Android users, there's a decent proportion of Dublin Bus customers who don't have access to an NFC device.

The Leap system is great for the rail lines, where they can be topped up at stations, but it's hopeless for the bus system where sometimes you would have to add a long time to your journey to top up, and that's assuming the top-up points are even open. Considering a lot of them in the suburbs are small shops that might close at 6pm, that's not helpful. My old top-up point meant a 30 minute walk (ten minutes away from my house, ten back, then another ten to the bus stop), always closed at 6pm, and shut its doors for good in the last year or two. I've no idea where my nearest point is now, which to me shows how restrictive and unhelpful the system is from a consumer's point of view.

I completely appreciate that there are technical limitations with the current system, but as you admit here: they could have gone with making no changes until they had better technology. This would have been much more reasonable and fairer to the customer.

They chose poorly.

So should the NTA not have bothered with a top up app because not everyone could use it on their phone?

There have been seriously bizarre posts in this thread but this one is special.

n!ghtmancometh · 22-08-2018 08:13PM

You can top up at any Luas or Irish Rail TVM. You can top up in shops, and you can enable auto top up from your bank account. If you don't want to use any of those reasonable options to save a significant % off a cash bus fare, then onus is on you to have the exact fare, or lose whatever you overpaid. There is no credible argument for not using Leap imo.

vectorvictor · 22-08-2018 08:15PM

Regarding comments about percentage of leap users.

I think the real figure that is important is that just 17% of change receipts get redeemed.

So in reality that reduces the 30% of cash customers "impacted" to below 5%

john boye · 22-08-2018 08:17PM

heroics wrote: »

I saw that and there was nearly 140 million journeys on Dublin bus last year. That makes nearly 40 million journeys not using leap. Hardly an insignificant number of people that will be effected by this.

Reason I asked again was someone said last night that the 30% probably includes free travel but I can’t find any figures for that.

Why wouldn't the 30% include FPTs? It would be very odd not to, especially given how many holders you see using the bus

Hurrache · 22-08-2018 08:30PM

vectorvictor wrote: »

Strongly support this , it removes the messing and is about educating people to go cashless. Can only be a positive thing especially when some (albeit undisclosed percentage) goes to community spirit , they do some really good work with this

I'd love to go cashless like I can on the Luas, using Visa debit.

heroics · 22-08-2018 08:33PM

john boye wrote: »

Why wouldn't the 30% include FPTs? It would be very odd not to, especially given how many holders you see using the bus

All I was saying was that the numbers are hard to find. Dublin bus must know these. If it only effected a small number of users surely they would say that. Completely made up example: of the 140 million journeys we this would only effect 10 thousand. As the number of journeys is so large even if it effects 5% of journeys that still 7 million effected by this change

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 08:42PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So should the NTA not have bothered with a top up app because not everyone could use it on their phone?

There have been seriously bizarre posts in this thread but this one is special.

You'd be surprised how many people I've seen casually make that remark.

With regards to other contactless methods. The leap card itself is a precursor to implementing those. They won't work without the appropriate backends in place. And eventually it is on a long term plan. It's not an easy thing to implement. Too many people seem to forget with the advances in technology, services and applications still take a long time to develop, test and implement.

Was anyone truly surprised by Sony's comments lately about their difficulties keeping android updated on a wide range of phones, compared to Apple with iOS on a relatively limited range of devices?

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 08:46PM

heroics wrote: »

But what about the occasional used that don’t want to have to carry a leap card for the one or two times a year I get the bus

Occasional bus users are also much less likely to know what the exact fare is

If ocassional bus users aren't bothered to get or use a Leap card then I seriously doubt they're going to be bothered to go into O'Connell Street to cash in change tickets. Why would they pay the €2.85 or €3.30 cash fare to get into town and another €2.85 or €3.30 back to get maybe a Euro at the most back in cash.

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 08:46PM

vectorvictor wrote: »

Regarding comments about percentage of leap users.

I think the real figure that is important is that just 17% of change receipts get redeemed.

So in reality that reduces the 30% of cash customers "impacted" to below 5%

Something that's not acknowledged, is a leap user can overpay also. And they aren't currently issued a change receipt.

john boye · 22-08-2018 08:52PM

heroics wrote: »

All I was saying was that the numbers are hard to find. Dublin bus must know these. If it only effected a small number of users surely they would say that. Completely made up example: of the 140 million journeys we this would only effect 10 thousand. As the number of journeys is so large even if it effects 5% of journeys that still 7 million effected by this change

Is your problem with them scrapping the change ticket or going cashless completely? There's an easy solution to both.

heroics · 22-08-2018 09:00PM

john boye wrote: »

Is your problem with them scrapping the change ticket or going cashless completely? There's an easy solution to both.

I have no problem with cashless if I could use contactless visa debit or Android/Apple Pay. I very rarely have change on me. I carry a wallet that holds 6 cards and notes only. Sometimes I only carry my mobile and use that if I need something when out. I simply think removing the change option before having a proper contactless is premature.

punisher5112 · 22-08-2018 09:05PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

Something that's not acknowledged, is a leap user can overpay also. And they aren't currently issued a change receipt.

Explain.....

It's usually the user not knowing how to use it.

The driver can anul the transaction if there is an issue.

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 09:16PM

DivingDuck wrote: »

Apple is not a small brand with a tiny market share, but beyond that: not all Android phones can do this, either. Many of the budget models can't (as I discovered when trying to get an NFC enabled phone for under 200e). A lot of bus users (especially younger ones and those on a restricted income) will be using a budget phone. Between the iPhone/dumbphone/budget Android users, there's a decent proportion of Dublin Bus customers who don't have access to an NFC device.

The Leap system is great for the rail lines, where they can be topped up at stations, but it's hopeless for the bus system where sometimes you would have to add a long time to your journey to top up, and that's assuming the top-up points are even open. Considering a lot of them in the suburbs are small shops that might close at 6pm, that's not helpful. My old top-up point meant a 30 minute walk (ten minutes away from my house, ten back, then another ten to the bus stop), always closed at 6pm, and shut its doors for good in the last year or two. I've no idea where my nearest point is now, which to me shows how restrictive and unhelpful the system is from a consumer's point of view.

I can't think of many android phones which don't have NFC. Almost every Android phone made since 2015 has NFC enabled and I don't many people who have a smart phone which is more than 3 years old judging by most smartphones I see people using. My own phone cost me €200 and has NFC and my last phone cost me €150 and had NFC.

Here's a long list of all NFC enabled phones I'm sure plenty can be picked up for under €200. LG, Huawei and Vodafone Smart are on the list which are generally fairly cheap.

https://www.unitag.io/nfc/is-my-phone-compatible-with-nfc

I also can't think of too many areas in Suburban Dublin which aren't in walking distance of less than 10 mins of a shop which does leap top up. If people pre planned a bit better then it wouldn't be an issue as they could top up their card when they are out and about plenty of leap agents out there.

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 09:17PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Explain.....

It's usually the user not knowing how to use it.

The driver can anul the transaction if there is an issue.

They don't always know the driver can annul. A lot of people tend to assume the validator at the door will adjust based on the distance into the journey.

DivingDuck · 22-08-2018 09:22PM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So should the NTA not have bothered with a top up app because not everyone could use it on their phone?

There have been seriously bizarre posts in this thread but this one is special.

That's not the argument I'm making.

The argument I'm making is that they would not have released a top-up app if they did not recognise there is a need for one. Unfortunately, said app will only reach a small percentage of customers— the rest will have to make do with the pay point system, which in my opinion, is dire. "Top up in a shop that might add twenty minutes to your journey assuming it isn't closed" is not reasonable in this day and age.

I believe it's unfair to make it harder for people to opt out of that system (by keeping their change) when the only reason they get away with having that system at all is because customers have no plausible alternative.

DivingDuck · 22-08-2018 09:32PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

I can't think of many android phones which don't have NFC. Almost every Android phone made since 2015 has NFC enabled and I don't many people who have a smart phone which is more than 3 years old judging by most smartphones I see people using. My own phone cost me €200 and has NFC and my last phone cost me €150 and had NFC.

Here's a long list of all NFC enabled phones I'm sure plenty can be picked up for under €200. LG, Huawei and Vodafone Smart are on the list which are generally fairly cheap.

https://www.unitag.io/nfc/is-my-phone-compatible-with-nfc

I also can't think of too many areas in Suburban Dublin which aren't in walking distance of less than 10 mins of a shop which does leap top up. If people pre planned a bit better then it wouldn't be an issue as they could top up their card when they are out and about plenty of leap agents out there.

When I was looking for a phone, I wanted one with decent RAM and that didn't require rooting the phone to remove the crapware on it (which rules out the Vodafone options completely, and many of the others). In the end, I had a choice of about three at the sub-€200 mark.

I can't address the latter point without giving you my address, so you'll have to take my word for it. I have a ten to fifteen minute walk to the nearest place I (think I) can top up, and while I could get a bus there, it would terminate in the wrong place, so I have to walk back to where I started, then five to ten minutes in the opposite direction. Maybe this is an outlier? I doubt it, though.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't take spontaneous trips, or that people who have travel needs that crop up at short notice should be penalised? That people should keep a standing balance on their Leap cards just in case?

The system is plainly behind the times, and massively inconvenient for many users. That's the only point I'm making, and I don't know why people are arguing against it so vociferously. If it doesn't inconvenience your life because you have a decent non-Apple phone or live near a shop, that's great for you, but it doesn't negate the experiences of people whose situations are different.

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 09:35PM

Cashless buses are nothing new and have existed long before the advent of smartcards, contactless cards and mobile phone payment. Many cities have had cashless buses since the abandonment of conductors. In Rome for example you buy a ticket in a shop before you board which is valid on all buses and trams for 90 mins or one metro or suburban rail journey and it's been like that for years.

I personally DB should have gone cashless twenty years ago with Travel 90 tickets only before the advent of Leap cards.

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 10:13PM

DivingDuck wrote: »

When I was looking for a phone, I wanted one with decent RAM and that didn't require rooting the phone to remove the crapware on it (which rules out the Vodafone options completely, and many of the others). In the end, I had a choice of about three at the sub-€200 mark.

It not something the majority of people would consider when buying a phone. Overall I would say at least 60% of smartphones these days have NFC.

I can't address the latter point without giving you my address, so you'll have to take my word for it. I have a ten to fifteen minute walk to the nearest place I (think I) can top up, and while I could get a bus there, it would terminate in the wrong place, so I have to walk back to where I started, then five to ten minutes in the opposite direction. Maybe this is an outlier? I doubt it, though.

A ten or fifteen minute walk is not very far. Most areas which aren't near shops in Dublin would have a lack of amenities which includes poor bus services.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't take spontaneous trips, or that people who have travel needs that crop up at short notice should be penalised? That people should keep a standing balance on their Leap cards just in case?

No I don't think people shouldn't make spontaneous trips but I do think regular commuters should be prioritised. We should be looking at ways to make ocassional users regular users. Yes I do think should keep a standing balance on a Leap card for the same reason they should keep a standing balance on their mobile phones or petrol in their cars.

The system is plainly behind the times, and massively inconvenient for many users. That's the only point I'm making, and I don't know why people are arguing against it so vociferously. If it doesn't inconvenience your life because you have a decent non-Apple phone or live near a shop, that's great for you, but it doesn't negate the experiences of people whose situations are different.

Yes I agree the system is behind the times, I think everyone agrees that. What is needed is a flat fare, contactless and phone paymentsand new faster validators the current system is unacceptable. It dosen't inconvience my life that you don't have an NFC phone or live near a shop but dwell times at bus stops do inconvience my life.

punisher5112 · 22-08-2018 10:13PM

Don't be stressing they will be alloing visa payment just not yet.

devnull · 22-08-2018 10:23PM

punisher5112 wrote: »

Don't be stressing they will be alloing visa payment just not yet.

Can't see it being anytime soon, they'll have to replace every single ticket machine, do a new back-end, get a card processing system working, train all the staff etc.

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 10:33PM

devnull wrote: »

Can't see it being anytime soon, they'll have to replace every single ticket machine, do a new back-end, get a card processing system working, train all the staff etc.

They should gradually introduce it and then start accepting contactless when every bus has been retrofitted with new ticketing equipment.

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 11:39PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

They should gradually introduce it and then start accepting contactless when every bus has been retrofitted with new ticketing equipment.

That's a long process. You cant just pull it from one operator in another region and slap it into ours. Do you think leap was developed entirely in house in ireland? Its a combination of services from many different providers. And your earlier suggestion of getting a 90 minute ticket as a means of going cashless is just promoting a disposable leap card.

Stephen15 · 22-08-2018 11:43PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's a long process. You cant just pull it from one operator in another region and slap it into ours. Do you think leap was developed entirely in house in ireland? Its a combination of services from many different providers. And your earlier suggestion of getting a 90 minute ticket as a means of going cashless is just promoting a disposable leap card.

True but something needs to done which BC is proposing

I'm not suggesting that 90 minute tickets are introduced I'm saying they should have been introduced in the past but they would be obsolete now due to Leap.

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 11:47PM

DivingDuck wrote: »

When I was looking for a phone, I wanted one with decent RAM and that didn't require rooting the phone to remove the crapware on it (which rules out the Vodafone options completely, and many of the others). In the end, I had a choice of about three at the sub-€200 mark.

I can't address the latter point without giving you my address, so you'll have to take my word for it. I have a ten to fifteen minute walk to the nearest place I (think I) can top up, and while I could get a bus there, it would terminate in the wrong place, so I have to walk back to where I started, then five to ten minutes in the opposite direction. Maybe this is an outlier? I doubt it, though.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't take spontaneous trips, or that people who have travel needs that crop up at short notice should be penalised? That people should keep a standing balance on their Leap cards just in case?

The system is plainly behind the times, and massively inconvenient for many users. That's the only point I'm making, and I don't know why people are arguing against it so vociferously. If it doesn't inconvenience your life because you have a decent non-Apple phone or live near a shop, that's great for you, but it doesn't negate the experiences of people whose situations are different.

That's not leap cards fault either. The technology requires the card to connect to a designated device to commuinicate. If it doesnt it cant. No one can change that. Theres no point on arguing that in London you can use your debit card. We aren't there. Nor is the system in place to make that work here, yet. You can talk about it being somewhere else all you want, that won't bring visa contactless services here any quicker.

Dravokivich · 22-08-2018 11:51PM

Stephen15 wrote: »

True but something needs to done which BC is proposing

I'm not suggesting that 90 minute tickets are introduced I'm saying they should have been introduced in the past but they would be obsolete now due to Leap.

Other than the route planning anything else bus connects comments on is not really in their remit. They just added stuff about fares and technology as consultants. I don't believe they were really in a position to discuss them. That falls under other projects being led and planned by NTA.

DivingDuck · 23-08-2018 03:45AM

Stephen15 wrote: »

A ten or fifteen minute walk is not very far. Most areas which aren't near shops in Dublin would have a lack of amenities which includes poor bus services.

But I was talking about a walk in excess of twenty minutes in addition to my existing "not very far" walk of ten minutes. That's a half hour walk, purely because of the inability of the DB card system to accept payment via contactless. I could walk most of the way to town in that time, busses be damned. There's no lack of amenities in my area, just a lack of places to top up the Leap cards.

Overall I would say at least 60% of smartphones these days have NFC.

...

It dosen't inconvience my life that you don't have an NFC phone or live near a shop but dwell times at bus stops do inconvience my life.

IMO, 60% is very low for them to be pushing so hard to kill cash payments. When they provide a facility for 90%+ of customers to pay cashless on boarding, then it would be reasonable for them to attempt to kill off cash payments. Before that is simply trading on the fact that they have a monopoly and can do whatever they fancy. We wouldn't accept that from most retailers or service providers, so why should we accept it from Dublin Bus?

Dravokivich wrote: »

That's not leap cards fault either. The technology requires the card to connect to a designated device to commuinicate. If it doesnt it cant. No one can change that. Theres no point on arguing that in London you can use your debit card. We aren't there. Nor is the system in place to make that work here, yet. You can talk about it being somewhere else all you want, that won't bring visa contactless services here any quicker.

I never mentioned it being anywhere else. What I said was that it isn't here, and yet they are introducing measures (removing the refund option) which penalise cash users— this on top of the existing tariff penalty.

My point is that they should have waited to introduce this system until such time as they were able to handle cashless payments on boarding, not simply via an app many people can't use and via pay points which are not convenient for many customers.

I don't object to a cashless system. It's necessary for the long-term. I object to the heavy penalising of cash users at a point where they have yet to implement a cashless system which is convenient and is accessible to a strong majority of users.

Podge_irl · 23-08-2018 08:15AM

DivingDuck wrote: »

But I was talking about a walk in excess of twenty minutes in addition to my existing "not very far" walk of ten minutes. That's a half hour walk, purely because of the inability of the DB card system to accept payment via contactless. I could walk most of the way to town in that time, busses be damned. There's no lack of amenities in my area, just a lack of places to top up the Leap cards.

Set up an auto-topup of your leap card and you'll never have to go near a shop again.

The systems are already in place to satisfy pretty much everyone. This change isn't even a method to "force" people into using Leap, it is a consequence of multiple operators starting to operate the buses in Dublin.

Removal of Change Reciepts on Dublin Bus Services.

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