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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

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Comments

  • #842
    buckwheat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 344 ✭✭buckwheat


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    After what has come out this week in terms of the US, which mirrors what Ireland and plenty of other countries, how can anyone justify a continued support for this organisation?

    Is it simply because they don't care?
    They have convinced themselves that its totally different now?
    That their own faith is such that stepping away from the CC would give them no basis?

    I really don't understand it. Belief in God and Jesus does not need the CC. One can continue to have faith, to read the bible, to live in the way of Jesus, without continued support for such an organisation.

    What message do these people think they are sending both to the church and to the wider world by their attending the event? Or are they of the view that that doesn't matter once they get to take part?

    It is really odd to see that there is still so many people willing to support this.

    What would it actually take for them to turn their backs on the CC? I cannot imagine how much worse it needs to get    .

    There is nothing that would do it. If child rape and the associated cover up and lack of remorse doesn't do it nothing will imo. It genuinely is like a mental illness


  • #843
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,839 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Basically, Colm O'Gorman said he was not organising it as a protest, but more out of solidarity with those abused. If an individual wants to go, as a protest, that's their call.
    Generally, 6% of priests have been abusers. The RCC at all senior levels knew of them. The general strategy was to move them around. So the church needs to fully take ownership of what it deliberately did over the decades and the appalling damage that this caused.


  • #844
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I think the problem here is that people either can’t or won’t separate the religion from the institution.

    I am going to the park next week and I have no shame in saying I’m looking forward to it. But here’s the thing - I’m not going because I support the church or because I believe that child abuse ok - quite the contrary, I think it’s abhorrent and anyone who does it deserves castration without anesthesia. It’s not because I believe it’s shameful to be an unmarried mother- I’m the daughter of the one and I’m proud to be her daughter. It’s not because I think gay people are evil- my younger brother is gay and I have zero problem with it. I think anyone that does needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

    So why then am I going? Because my faith has given my comfort and strength at different times in my life and I have seen the comfort it has given others - the central teaching of love and acceptance are what matter to me. And Pope Francis seems to me a progressive and forward thinking man more so that any of his predecessors.

    The church has done a lot of good in the world especially in the Third World that simply cannot be ignored. I support those good men and women who want nothing than to live their lives serving god and helping those in need and who I am sure are abhorred by the the terrible things that have happened.

    I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there.

    Instead of jumping to conclusions about people’s motivations in going to the park maybe stop and consider that instead of being one big homogeneous group we are a individuals with different ideas and beliefs and we don’t all have the same motives.

    Also consider that not everyone supports the institution but that the religion itself is what’s driving them.


  • #845
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 42,983 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    And Pope Francis seems to me a progressive and forward thinking man more so that any of his predecessors.
    But as previously mentioned, it was a low bar to overcome. Nonetheless Frank has done nothing of any substance.


  • #846
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    I'm not gonna lie. I despise the organisation and everything it stands for. However I do understand that a lot of people get a lot of strength through their faith. I'll be protesting against the organisation but I wont begrudge anyone who wants to go to the park


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  • #847
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I think the problem here is that people either can’t or won’t separate the religion from the institution.

    I am going to the park next week and I have no shame in saying I’m looking forward to it. But here’s the thing - I’m not going because I support the church or because I believe that child abuse ok - quite the contrary, I think it’s abhorrent and anyone who does it deserves castration without anesthesia. It’s not because I believe it’s shameful to be an unmarried mother- I’m the daughter of the one and I’m proud to be her daughter. It’s not because I think gay people are evil- my younger brother is gay and I have zero problem with it. I think anyone that does needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

    So why then am I going? Because my faith has given my comfort and strength at different times in my life and I have seen the comfort it has given others - the central teaching of love and acceptance are what matter to me. And Pope Francis seems to me a progressive and forward thinking man more so that any of his predecessors.

    I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there.

    Instead of jumping to conclusions about people’s motivations in going to the park maybe stop and consider that instead of being one big homogeneous group we are a individuals with different ideas and beliefs and we don’t all have the same motives.

    Also consider that not everyone supports the institution but that the religion itself is what’s driving them.

    You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. They will count you as a loyal member coming out to see the leader. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

    People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.


  • #848
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

    People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.

    To be fair I can see the appeal.

    Look at it this way. You can cycle the Sally Gap whenever you want to. Can you say the same about Alpe d'Huez?


  • #849
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

    People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.

    I never said I needed the Pope for anything and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to tell me what my motives are - you have no idea.

    The Pope represents both the organization and faith but they are two separate things - you can believe in Christ without subscribing to the outdated organization that is the church. My faith in my religion is was motivats me not any faith in the church as an organization.


  • #850
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    P_1 wrote: »
    To be fair I can see the appeal.

    Look at it this way. You can cycle the Sally Gap whenever you want to. Can you say the same about Alpe d'Huez?

    I can't because I'd never make it up Alpe d'Heuz. No point in even trying. Sally Gap is testing enough! :D


  • #851
    Fighting Tao
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,498 ✭✭✭Fighting Tao


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I never said I needed the Pope for anything and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t try to tell me what my motives are - you have no idea.

    The Pope represents both the organization and faith but they are two separate things - you can believe in Christ without subscribing to the outdated organization that is the church. My faith in my religion is was motivats me not any faith in the church as an organization.

    They are two separate things. We agree on that. However, attending an event organised by the institution/organisation is supporting them. Faith can be practiced anywhere.


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  • #852
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    They are two separate things. We agree on that. However, attending an event organised by the institution/organisation is supporting them. Faith can be practiced anywhere.

    You see this is why I don’t like admitting my faith to people nowadays - who do you think you are to assume that because I’m choosing to go up the park next week I must be ok with the terrible things the church have done.

    I despise the church and how it has corrupted the faith and made it a near crime to be Catholic.

    I’m going to the park because of my personal faith not the organization that has twisted and corrupted it.


  • #853
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    I can't because I'd never make it up Alpe d'Heuz. No point in even trying. Sally Gap is testing enough! :D

    Rule 5


  • #854
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    You see this is why I don’t like admitting my faith to people nowadays - who do you think you are to assume that because I’m choosing to go up the park next week I must be ok with the terrible things the church have done.

    I despise the church and how it has corrupted the faith and made it a near crime to be Catholic.

    I’m going to the park because of my personal faith not the organization that has twisted and corrupted it.

    Do what gives you strength. Fcuk what other people think


  • #855
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    P_1 wrote: »
    Do what gives you strength. Fcuk what other people think

    Easier said than done when my faith means people have the right to assume I’m a child abuse supporting homophobe who looks down on unwed mothers and thinks covering up the most heinous of crimes is ok.


  • #856
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Easier said than done when my faith means people have the right to assume I’m a child abuse supporting homophobe who looks down on unwed mothers and thinks covering up the most heinous of crimes is ok.

    I find headphones and loud Pantera are great for dealing with sh1t like that


  • #857
    martyc5674
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,522 ✭✭✭martyc5674


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Easier said than done when my faith means people have the right to assume I’m a child abuse supporting homophobe who looks down on unwed mothers and thinks covering up the most heinous of crimes is ok.

    No one thinks you are that.
    But they think you support an organisation that’s ok with that, and may frown upon you for supporting them- that’s all.


  • #858
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    martyc5674 wrote: »
    No one thinks you are that.
    But they think you support an organisation that’s ok with that, and may frown upon you for supporting them- that’s all.

    Oh well that’s ok then.

    I don’t support the organization, I support the faith and the good people who dedicate their lives to it. I do not support the monsters who used the faith for their own cruel purposes or those who protected them.

    I don’t see what’s wrong with that?


  • #859
    Bredabe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,415 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    A new form of protest maybe.

    A posting on a local fb page giving out about the 'Pride Parade' yes, 'They should be ashamed having a parade of them types and the pope only 90 miles away next week'

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



  • #860
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Bredabe wrote: »
    A new form of protest maybe.

    A posting on a local fb page giving out about the 'Pride Parade' yes, 'They should be ashamed having a parade of them types and the pope only 90 miles away next week'

    Gowls like that have no place in our Republic. They can piss off to Uganda. They'll be right at home there.


  • #861
    RustyNut
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    P_1 wrote: »
    Do what gives you strength. Fcuk what other people think

    Easier said than done when my faith means people have the right to assume I’m a child abuse supporting homophobe who looks down on unwed mothers and thinks covering up the most heinous of crimes is ok.
    That is the official position of the catholic church though isn't it?


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  • #862
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. They will count you as a loyal member coming out to see the leader. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

    People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.

    sheerly pedantic is your post with no understanding of the issues.
    by any standards this is an important faith event and an important state event. The two are inextricably intertwined,,

    and every mass is "organised" by the church and Sunday mass IS obligatory for practising catholics. as is every act of faith.


  • #863
    Eggs For Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭Eggs For Dinner


    Graces7 wrote: »
    every mass is "organised" by the church and Sunday mass IS obligatory for practising catholics.

    Unless you go on Saturday Evening.


  • #864
    P_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Graces7 wrote: »
    sheerly pedantic is your post with no understanding of the issues.
    by any standards this is an important faith event and an important state event. The two are inextricably intertwined,,

    and every mass is "organised" by the church and Sunday mass IS obligatory for practising catholics. as is every act of faith.

    See that's the issue with organised religion. Why is there such a need for so many rules and obligations. If you have faith why cant you just reflect and gain strength your own way


  • #865
    Ronan|Raven
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,152 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    **** the Pope and **** the church. But do you know what? Let them at it. If people want to go to it then so be it.


  • #866
    Sal Butamol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 523 ✭✭✭Sal Butamol


    Best protest is to ignore it.

    I have no time for the Church, I'm not going. I don't go to mass either.

    I find all this hysteria amazing. People complaining about the Church non-stop who still go to this are the biggest fools.

    People who think they can reform the Church are also fools. It is beyond reform, riddled with paedophiles, with a long history of sick behaviour.

    Nothing like religion to illustrate the mental gymnastics and cognitive dissonance of the masses.


  • #867
    Sycamore Tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    martyc5674 wrote: »
    No one thinks you are that.
    But they think you support an organisation that’s ok with that, and may frown upon you for supporting them- that’s all.

    Oh well that’s ok then.

    I don’t support the organization, I support the faith and the good people who dedicate their lives to it. I do not support the monsters who used the faith for their own cruel purposes or those who protected them.

    I don’t see what’s wrong with that?

    Have you ever done anything to try and fix the Roman organisation?


  • #868
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,839 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I tell you the fastest way to change the church is, not to put money in the collection box. Attend mass or don't as your faith dictates.


  • #869
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Sycamore Tree wrote: »
    Have you ever done anything to try and fix the Roman organisation?

    Such as? I’m not to blame for the things they did - why I fix their problems for them?


  • #870
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    bollix it’s not a protest- in every national newspaper I’ve read this weekend it’s called a protest- it’s called a protest in this thread- so why are you fudging it now?

    If I wanted to protest I'd be at the park waving banners.

    I'm going to the gathering in town to be around fellow survivors. This week will be distressing for a lot of people myself included, I want to be with people who get it.

    It's not a protest, I have no issue with anyone going to the mass. I hope they have a great day.


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  • #871
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,402 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Fighting Tao wrote: »
    You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. They will count you as a loyal member coming out to see the leader. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

    People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.

    A very judgemental attitude. The poster doesn't need to explain themselves or justify why they are going to the Phoenix Park. There was an atheist columnist in the Evening Herald a few weeks ago saying he was going along to the Mass and he's really looking forward to the occasion.

    You said people can practise their faith anywhere. That includes going along to the Papal mass if they so desire, they don't your permission or approval.


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