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Should we protest against the pope's visit?

work

I believe a huge protest against the popes visit is required to show the government and church they are no longer welcome or wanted in our society. What do you think? There are many stakeholders that should protest their removal from any influence in our society. Some that come to mind are:
1) Anyone not supportive of misogyny
2) Anyone that doesn't believe in school indoctrination of children in a massive lie.
3) Anyone concerned about abusers in positions allowing abuse
4) Anyone with the most basic scientific education.
5) Anyone that doesn't support cults
6) Anyone that believes LGBT people should be treated fairly in society.
7) Anyone that believes women should have ANY control of their bodies.
8) Anyone that is not seen as equal in the church namely women children and men.

There are many other areas but I realised I have covered everyone. As such let's all go to the Phoenix park to let the Vatican know they are not welcome.
Are there any peaceful groups planning to protest?

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AudreyHepburn

work wrote: »

so you completely don't support the church due to the paedophilia, subsequent cover up+++, hate of gays and children out of wedlock BUT you will go as something to look back on and because of your faith (belief in something with no basis or evidence). How can you sell that to yourself it seems insane logic.....??

I’m not seeing the problem to be honest - I’m going because of my faith not the organization, how hard is that to understand.

If it makes anyone here feel any better know that I struggled for a long tome with my faith and I even try to make myself not believe because sometimes you feel like a criminal for saying you believe in god. But no matter how hard I tried I just couldn’t not believe.

I didn’t get to where I am without a lot of hard thinking and worrying about how I’d be perceived in modern day Ireland. I’m not a sheep or an apologist. I’m just who has great faith and who won’t let a few evil individuals turn her away from that.

If that angers, upsets or in way bothers people here I can only apologize but I can’t change it.

work

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think the problem here is that people either can’t or won’t separate the religion from the institution.

I am going to the park next week and I have no shame in saying I’m looking forward to it. But here’s the thing - I’m not going because I support the church or because I believe that child abuse ok - quite the contrary, I think it’s abhorrent and anyone who does it deserves castration without anesthesia. It’s not because I believe it’s shameful to be an unmarried mother- I’m the daughter of the one and I’m proud to be her daughter. It’s not because I think gay people are evil- my younger brother is gay and I have zero problem with it. I think anyone that does needs to take a good hard look at themselves.

So why then am I going? Because my faith has given my comfort and strength at different times in my life and I have seen the comfort it has given others - the central teaching of love and acceptance are what matter to me. And Pope Francis seems to me a progressive and forward thinking man more so that any of his predecessors.

The church has done a lot of good in the world especially in the Third World that simply cannot be ignored. I support those good men and women who want nothing than to live their lives serving god and helping those in need and who I am sure are abhorred by the the terrible things that have happened.

I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there.

Instead of jumping to conclusions about people’s motivations in going to the park maybe stop and consider that instead of being one big homogeneous group we are a individuals with different ideas and beliefs and we don’t all have the same motives.

Also consider that not everyone supports the institution but that the religion itself is what’s driving them.

so you completely don't support the church due to the paedophilia, subsequent cover up+++, hate of gays and children out of wedlock BUT you will go as something to look back on and because of your faith (belief in something with no basis or evidence). How can you sell that to yourself it seems insane logic.....??

AudreyHepburn

murpho999 wrote: »

I find your posts very contradictory.

If you are going next week, which is your right, then you must accept that you are supporting the organisation as it is their event.

Therefore you are showing support to their policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You cannot seperate the church from these issues.

You say you have faith, ok, but why do you need this church then as you say you don't support what they preach?

Also, this "progressive" pope has changed nothing whilst in office, absolutely nothing.

It’s not as black and white as you would like it to be I’m afraid. I don’t need the church and never said otherwise. But my faith is important to me and it’s that that I’ll celebrate on Sunday. My faith not the organization.

I’m not homophobic nor do I agree with child abuse, shaming unwed mothers or any other accusation you care to level at me and I’d appreciate if you didn’t make such assertions.

Sal Butamol

Cabaal wrote: »

errr...not really

The best protest is to protest and be heard and seen, to let them know they can't just give a meaningless apology and then its back to business as usual.

Protest and be heard? You think the Church isn't aware of the sentiment here? They are well aware but don't give a ****. Let off the hook by the state at every opportunity.

They gave meaningless apologies and this visit is exactly that, business as usual.

People need to turn their back on the Church, stop giving them money and attention and let the Churches close.

timthumbni

Edgware wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

It’s got Feck all to do with that. I just find it astounding that intelligent people still send their wee ones
Every Sunday to some kind of paedophile superstore.

What will you be posting ****e about when the visit is over?

I’ve no idea what you are on about chum. Care to explain?

Edgware

timthumbni wrote: »

It’s got Feck all to do with that. I just find it astounding that intelligent people still send their wee ones
Every Sunday to some kind of paedophile superstore.

What will you be posting ****e about when the visit is over?

Taytoland

timthumbni wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

Home rule is Rome rule!

It’s got Feck all to do with that. I just find it astounding that intelligent people still send their wee ones
Every Sunday to some kind of paedophile superstore.

Makes them different from the bad Brits.

timthumbni

Taytoland wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

Home rule is Rome rule!

It’s got Feck all to do with that. I just find it astounding that intelligent people still send their wee ones
Every Sunday to some kind of paedophile superstore.

timthumbni

Taytoland wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

Home rule is Rome rule!

It’s got Feck all to do with that. I just find it astounding that intelligent people still send their wee ones
Every Sunday to some kind of paedophile superstore.

Taytoland

timthumbni wrote: »

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

Home rule is Rome rule!

Taytoland

timthumbni wrote: »

Strazdas wrote: »

murpho999 wrote: »

I find your posts very contradictory.

If you are going next week, which is your right, then you must accept that you are supporting the organisation as it is their event.

Therefore you are showing support to their policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You cannot seperate the church from these issues.

You say you have faith, ok, but why do you need this church then as you say you don't support what they preach?

Also, this "progressive" pope has changed nothing whilst in office, absolutely nothing.

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You don't do nuance, everything is rigid and black and white in your world.

It is slightly weird though that Irish people still worship at the altar of a church who has caused so much harm, both physically and sexually to it’s children. And still send their their kids to the same cover up club..

Glad I wasn't born into that Church. But if Irish people want to celebrate the Pope then go ahead.

Discodog

It's bad enough that so many attend church & then go home to totally ignore it's teaching on love & compassion. Then throw in child abuse & the only conclusion is that they are a bunch of hypocrites.

timthumbni

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

timthumbni

Maybe he will be bringing over a planeload of Vatican stolen cash to help cover the massive child abuse permitted and covered up by his so called church..... Happy communion.....

volchitsa

Strazdas wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

They actually are, you know. That's even the church's justification for its spokesmen having such ready access to the media to express their views on this that and the other - that all those people who send their children to catholic schools or who get married in church and all the rest are in fact signed up to everything else the church has to say too.

Of course we all know it's a fiction, and that the church's quasi monopoly on schools is the real reason many people pretend to be signed up to religion.
The church knows it too, but since they also know that admitting to this openly would defeat the whole purpose of anyone doing it, they use it shamelessly to push the rest of their agenda.

And the numbers rocking up to the Pope's gig will most definitely be exploited by the church as more evidence of support for the church and all its foibles.
So yes, it definitely is giving them help and succour. Including for their actions over child abuse. It would be incredibly naive to think it wasn't.

Cabaal

Strazdas wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You don't do nuance, everything is rigid and black and white in your world.

Like it or not they actually are supporting the church and as such by extension supporting the church's policy. Thats the reality.

If the GAA hated gay or black people would you think giving money to the GAA, playing for the GAA and going to see GAA matches is NOT supporting the GAA and what it stands for?

If so, what sort of upside down world do you live in?

By the way, its the church that don't do nuance. You either believe their stuff or you don';t, for example if you don't believe in transubstantiation which is a core catholic belief but yet you consider yourself a catholic then you are only kidding yourself. I'd wager most people don't even know what transubstantiation means (bet you have to look it up

) and even more people think its nonsense what they read about it.

murpho999

timthumbni wrote: »

It is slightly weird though that Irish people still worship at the altar of a church who has caused so much harm, both physically and sexually to it’s children. And still send their their kids to the same cover up club..

Agree.

Most Irish people are socially conditioned to get their child christened and then not go to the church again until communion.

It's ridiculous.

And as shown by the poster above, they think being catholic and getting christened, communion, confirmation, marriage and funerals from the church does not mean that you are stating that you adhere to church policies and rules.

timthumbni

Strazdas wrote: »

murpho999 wrote: »

I find your posts very contradictory.

If you are going next week, which is your right, then you must accept that you are supporting the organisation as it is their event.

Therefore you are showing support to their policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You cannot seperate the church from these issues.

You say you have faith, ok, but why do you need this church then as you say you don't support what they preach?

Also, this "progressive" pope has changed nothing whilst in office, absolutely nothing.

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You don't do nuance, everything is rigid and black and white in your world.

It is slightly weird though that Irish people still worship at the altar of a church who has caused so much harm, both physically and sexually to it’s children. And still send their their kids to the same cover up club..

murpho999

Strazdas wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You don't do nuance, everything is rigid and black and white in your world.

Yes, if you use the church's services for marriage, funerals etc then you are signing up to their beliefs and rules.

That's what people commit to when they get their children christened.

The church has rules and these are not open to selection as to which you prefer

By the way I didn't use any analogy, just facts.

Strazdas

murpho999 wrote: »

I find your posts very contradictory.

If you are going next week, which is your right, then you must accept that you are supporting the organisation as it is their event.

Therefore you are showing support to their policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You cannot seperate the church from these issues.

You say you have faith, ok, but why do you need this church then as you say you don't support what they preach?

Also, this "progressive" pope has changed nothing whilst in office, absolutely nothing.

Absolute rubbish. Using your analogy, anyone who goes to Mass, gets married in a church, holds a funeral or christening there is "supporting the Church's policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You don't do nuance, everything is rigid and black and white in your world.

Cabaal

Sal Butamol wrote: »

Best protest is to ignore it.

.

errr...not really

The best protest is to protest and be heard and seen, to let them know they can't just give a meaningless apology and then its back to business as usual.

Cabaal

Ronan|Raven wrote: »

**** the Pope and **** the church. But do you know what? Let them at it. If people want to go to it then so be it.

I'd agree with you.....IF they weren't wasting over 30million euro of tax payer money on this gig. Also there's the slight issue of how they have mistreated abuse victims and not compensated them.

murpho999

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Oh well that’s ok then.

I don’t support the organization, I support the faith and the good people who dedicate their lives to it. I do not support the monsters who used the faith for their own cruel purposes or those who protected them.

I don’t see what’s wrong with that?

I find your posts very contradictory.

If you are going next week, which is your right, then you must accept that you are supporting the organisation as it is their event.

Therefore you are showing support to their policies on homosexuality, women's rights, paedophilia etc.

You cannot seperate the church from these issues.

You say you have faith, ok, but why do you need this church then as you say you don't support what they preach?

Also, this "progressive" pope has changed nothing whilst in office, absolutely nothing.

timthumbni

As an atheist I find the whole thing regarding the pope ridiculous tbh. Imagine going out in your hundreds of thousands to show support for the head of an organisation that has taken part in and covered up paedophiles for many years.

Maybe he can sell off some of the Vatican riches and compensate those abused by his church instead of the state footing the bill. Disgusting.

Discodog

The abuse happened because ordinary people were in awe & fear of the church. According to their beliefs the pope is chosen by god. He is god's representative. So if a pope knew & allowed abuse, which they did, then maybe the abuse was god's work ?

Of course people should protest. This pope is every bit as guilty as his predecessors. He has been around long enough to know about abuse but he chose to stay with the organisation. He could of walked away & shown his decency by fighting for the rights of the abused.

He accepted the job & is now the CEO. He has assumed full responsibility. Maybe he should be arrested for being complicit & aiding/abetting criminals ?

Strazdas

Fighting Tao wrote: »

You are not separating religion from the institution. You are attending due to your faith to an event organised by the institution. That is certainly not separating the two and is supporting the institution. They will count you as a loyal member coming out to see the leader. Maybe your comment "I also like the idea of being able to look back in years to come and say I was there" really gives away your reason. Fear of missing out. Irish people have a huge tendency to go to things for fear of missing out and being able to say "I was there".

People don't need to see the pope say mass or even go to church to practice their faith. It can be done anywhere.

A very judgemental attitude. The poster doesn't need to explain themselves or justify why they are going to the Phoenix Park. There was an atheist columnist in the Evening Herald a few weeks ago saying he was going along to the Mass and he's really looking forward to the occasion.

You said people can practise their faith anywhere. That includes going along to the Papal mass if they so desire, they don't your permission or approval.

eviltwin

Deleted User wrote: »

bollix it’s not a protest- in every national newspaper I’ve read this weekend it’s called a protest- it’s called a protest in this thread- so why are you fudging it now?

If I wanted to protest I'd be at the park waving banners.

I'm going to the gathering in town to be around fellow survivors. This week will be distressing for a lot of people myself included, I want to be with people who get it.

It's not a protest, I have no issue with anyone going to the mass. I hope they have a great day.

AudreyHepburn

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Have you ever done anything to try and fix the Roman organisation?

Such as? I’m not to blame for the things they did - why I fix their problems for them?

Water John

I tell you the fastest way to change the church is, not to put money in the collection box. Attend mass or don't as your faith dictates.

Sycamore Tree

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

martyc5674 wrote: »

No one thinks you are that.
But they think you support an organisation that’s ok with that, and may frown upon you for supporting them- that’s all.

Oh well that’s ok then.

I don’t support the organization, I support the faith and the good people who dedicate their lives to it. I do not support the monsters who used the faith for their own cruel purposes or those who protected them.

I don’t see what’s wrong with that?

Have you ever done anything to try and fix the Roman organisation?