All Ireland football final 2nd September 2018 - MOD NOTE POST #1 #1187 UPDATED

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 1:29pm

STB. wrote: »

Harte may very well be a 3 time All Ireland Winning Manager, but he hasn't done it in the last three years, on the bounce or otherwise.

Infact Harte has failed to get his team to an All Ireland Final 9 times out of the last 10 years. He has only won what is it 2 provincials in that time too.

When rushing to have a go, at least have some perspective to bolster your argument especially when attempting to make comparisons.

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Just An Opinion · 13-08-2018 1:30pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If they can consistently make Cluxton go long then Cavanagh on his day can compete.
That will make it very interesting IF they can do it consistently.
As you say, it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well. Tyrone unsettled them for a while in the Super 8's, if any manager can build on that it is Harte. (much and all as I dislike him today and most days! )

“it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well”

Yea I suppose winning 10 out of 12 national finals so far this decade really backs up your nonsense

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 1:36pm

Just An Opinion wrote: »

“it is a final, which Dublin don't seem to handle/manage well”

Yea I suppose winning 10 out of 12 national finals so far this decade really backs up your nonsense

It would be a bit silly to try and deny the reality that Dublin won them so what might Francie have mean't by that comment? hmmm?

Do you need a diagram? Do I really need to make the simple point again? :rolleyes:

You are getting tiresome now.

STB. · 13-08-2018 1:43pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Quite easy for you to perceive games of the back door variety to be banana skins because they can't get out of their own province as a way to explain their lack of appearance at finals.

Any chance that they weren't good enough to get there because they were not good enough ? Where have these other Ulster teams been come final day ?

9 times out of the last 10 Tyrone have failed to get to an AI final under Harte

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2018 1:46pm

mickeyk wrote: »

Gavin is a good if not a great manager!!

He has lost one championship game in six years. He is the best there has ever been, although he undoubtedly has had more help than most that have come before him. It will probably take time for his achievements to be truly recognised but I don’t think any other manager in the game would have achieved what he has in the past six years. It pains me to say that as a son of the kingdom.

You always know there's something brewing Mickey when ye all get so effusive.

Just An Opinion · 13-08-2018 1:46pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It would be a bit silly to try and deny the reality that Dublin won them so what might Francie have mean't by that comment? hmmm?

Do you need a diagram? Do I really need to make the simple point again? :rolleyes:

You are getting tiresome now.

Haha ok Francie take a nap :P

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 1:55pm

STB. wrote: »

Quite easy for you to perceive games of the back door variety to be banana skins because they can't get out of their own province as a way to explain their lack of appearance at finals.

Any chance that they weren't good enough to get there because they were not good enough ? Where have these other Ulster teams been come final day ?

9 times out of the last 10 Tyrone have failed to get to an AI final under Harte

Yes they did because there is some competitiveness left in Ulster. Monaghan put Tyrone out this year, then went out themselves and both still ended up in a semi.

We don't know yet if Tyrone are 'good enough' this year.

C__MC · 13-08-2018 2:03pm

A big boost for Tyrone this year has been the retirement of Sean Cavanagh and injury to Cathal mc Carron

Both were libalities for Tyrone last year- Cavanagh was done and mc carron is a poor player

seamus · 13-08-2018 2:05pm

Teams tend to rise/fall to the quality of their opposition, especially at the latter stages of a knockout competition.

It would be true to say that some of the Dublin finals were a bit flat; 2015 being a very notable example, but one could equally say that it was an unremarkable game because Kerry weren't at the races.

Likewise in 2016, some of Dublin's game in that first match was shocking. But so was Mayo's. Against such a mess, Mayo should have mopped the floor, but they didn't.

2017 was an exciting game, both teams gave it a great run. The fact that it was close doesn't mean Dublin didn't handle it well.

Tyrone are a bit of a wildcard. They're inconsistent. Dublin crushed them in the semi's last year, then in the quarters they gave Dublin the only real test of this year, and then they squeaked past Monaghan into the final.

So it's really hard to say how it'll go, because you can't really rely on Tyrone's past or even recent form. It's as likely that Tyrone don't turn up as it is that it'll be a last-minute gasp winner.

If you look at the quarter finals as a whole, though Dublin seemed to go through easier, Tyrone had a better scoring difference over the other two games.

I think this tallies with the numerous chances Galway had on Saturday - there seems to be some kind of chink in Dublin's defence, whether it's a specific strategy or a weak link. If Tyrone manage to exploit this and maybe get a few decent scores in after half-time, Dublin could be properly rattled.

STB. · 13-08-2018 2:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes they did because there is some competitiveness left in Ulster. Monaghan put Tyrone out this year, then went out themselves and both still ended up in a semi.

We don't know yet if Tyrone are 'good enough' this year.

You mean there's no consistency.

Semi finals ???? You are not good enough to win a final if you can't win a semi!

Where are these "competitive" Ulster teams come AI final day ?

Listen there was a time when the dubs could beat themselves in a game. This tranche of players don't have that mindset. Its what sets them apart from every other county. They have beaten Tyrone twice in Omagh this year (I remember your arguments back then too, they came to nothing).

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 2:23pm

STB. wrote: »

You mean there's no consistency.

Semi finals ???? You are not good enough to win a final if you can't win a semi!

Where are these "competitive" Ulster teams come AI final day ?

Listen there was a time when the dubs could beat themselves in a game. This tranche of players don't have that mindset. Its what sets them apart from every other county. They have beaten Tyrone twice in Omagh this year (I remember your arguments back then too, they came to nothing).

Dublin 1–12 Kerry 1–11
Dublin 2–12 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 0–12 Kerry 0–9
Dublin 1–15 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 1–17 Mayo 1–16

Dublin do not do as well in finals - the stats above show it clearly.
Championship and League results went out the window in those finals above too.

If there is a manager in Ireland who can exploit that, it is Mickey Harte. Maybe he won't, nobody knows yet. But, for me, I will find it fascinating enough to watch how he sends out his team.

yobr · 13-08-2018 2:27pm

seamus wrote: »

So it's really hard to say how it'll go, because you can't really rely on Tyrone's past or even recent form. It's as likely that Tyrone don't turn up as it is that it'll be a last-minute gasp winner..

Fair point, on the basis of the semi final performances though Dublin look in better shape. Also, their bench would have had the advantage of more game time, esp in view of the Roscommon match.

seamus wrote: »

If you look at the quarter finals as a whole, though Dublin seemed to go through easier, Tyrone had a better scoring difference over the other two games.

Yes and no. Both Tyrone and Dublin finished the Super 8's on the exact same scoring differential +22 points. You are correct when you leave out the results of the Dublin - Tyrone match but then again Dublin rested half the team for the Roscommon match.

seamus wrote: »

I think this tallies with the numerous chances Galway had on Saturday - there seems to be some kind of chink in Dublin's defence, whether it's a specific strategy or a weak link. If Tyrone manage to exploit this and maybe get a few decent scores in after half-time, Dublin could be properly rattled.

I've been reading this Dublin defence weak link for a few years now but I think they will be very alive to the threat from Tyrone's runners in this match. Also, don't rule out Dublin possibly playing a wild card like throwing Eoghan O'Gara up front just to occupy Tyrone defenders. Didn't work great last year against mayo but the early injury to Jack McC didn't help the cause.

yobr · 13-08-2018 2:32pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dublin 1–12 Kerry 1–11
Dublin 2–12 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 0–12 Kerry 0–9
Dublin 1–15 Mayo 1–14
Dublin 1–17 Mayo 1–16

Dublin do not do as well in finals - the stats above show it clearly.
Championship and League results went out the window in those finals above too.

If there is a manager in Ireland who can exploit that, it is Mickey Harte. Maybe he won't, nobody knows yet. But, for me, I will find it fascinating enough to watch how he sends out his team.

You are correct, the finals are much tighter affairs but Dublin's 6/6 record must say something about a team that knows how to win them? Ultimately, while we might all want a match like the 2013 semi final with Kerry, it's about winning.

FrancieBrady · 13-08-2018 2:39pm

yobr wrote: »

You are correct, the finals are much tighter affairs but Dublin's 6/6 record must say something about a team that knows how to win them? Ultimately, while we might all want a match like the 2013 semi final with Kerry, it's about winning.

Yep, it does say something.
As does Harte's ability to win the finals he was involved in.
Really is a test of two managers. Fascinating in it's own way.

Stoner · 13-08-2018 2:48pm

C__MC wrote:

A big boost for Tyrone this year has been the retirement of Sean Cavanagh and injury to Cathal mc Carron

I would have thought Sean was a loss to them but it certainly hasn't slowed them down, often these big players find it difficult to fit into a system

I think it will be a high tempo game, cool heads will be needed.

The ref will be key how he handles the early exchanges

Looking at Sludden after his goal yesterday he was very serious and focused,

Following on from last year I think Tyrone have done very well, the other lads are pulling together, possibly benefiting from not having an O'Neill or Sean Cavanagh type waiting to come off the bench.

tayto lover · 13-08-2018 2:59pm

The things that point to another Dublin All Ireland --

1. Better squad.
2. More experience of A I Final day.
3. The Croke Park factor.

The_Kew_Tour · 13-08-2018 3:00pm

We all thought Harte had trick up his sleeve for Dublin last year's Semi too.

Just can't see Tyrone doing enough.

But beauty of sport is that sometimes something happens that not even the hard thinkers get right or see coming.

But it's Dublin by 6-10 points for me

Stoner · 13-08-2018 3:15pm

The_Kew_Tour wrote:

We all thought Harte had trick up his sleeve for Dublin last year's Semi too.

That's true. It was different in Omagh though. I think they'll cause Dublin defenders trouble.

BPKS · 13-08-2018 3:15pm

I can see Dublin up by 4 or 5 points with 15 minutes to go, Tyrone then decide to go for it. The Dublin subs pick them off at will at the other end and we end up with a double digit victory for Dublin.

Edgware · 13-08-2018 4:09pm

tayto lover wrote: »

The things that point to another Dublin All Ireland --

1. Better squad.
2. More experience of A I Final day.
3. The Croke Park factor.

I agree. If Dublin were coming in without having won the last three it would be completely different scenario. They have All Ireland experience including games that have gone to the wire and to replays. Tyrone have no All Ireland winner on the team and hard to see anyone the equal of Canavan O Neill Mulligan or Dooher.
Tyrone will bring there own style but at this point Dublin has experience of plenty of that.

vetinari · 13-08-2018 4:10pm

Only chance for Tyrone is if Dublin have a really underwhelming today.
It's a testament to the gap between Dublin and everyone else that they still can win finals on their off days.
Dublin's ceiling performance wise is far higher than Tyrone's.

corny · 13-08-2018 4:16pm

Dublin are winning games on the drawing board. They're just too efficient for the likes of Tyrone.

Tyrone had loads of lads swinging their boot at low percentage shots yesterday. You just don't see Dublin doing that anymore. They make sure they contest all the entry points into game to win possession and when they have the ball they'll look after it until they can generate a good look at the target. Its almost inevitable they'll score more than opposition the way the games work out.

Tyrone will have to drastically change tactics to win. If they rely on the good defence/fast counter attack game they'll lose, and probably lose decisively. Funnily enough if they copied Dublins game i think they could do well. If you're patient against Dublins defence they might give you chances.

As it is Dublin are preying on the naivety of the teams they're facing. How times have changed!

C__MC · 13-08-2018 4:18pm

I think you’ll see a few change of tactics from Tyrone
Surely they’ll try and iscolate mc Mahon- he has been poor so far this year

They’ll have to push on the kick outs- something that worked in Omagh to an extent
Also, Tyrone’s tackling is much better then last year (Dublin were turned over a lot in Omagh)

Man mark Kilkenny everywhere
They sniffed out mc anespie yday but caffrey is a different kettle of fish

cj maxx · 13-08-2018 4:34pm

I think Dublin will win , but against Galway in the 1st half there looked to be chinks in their defence, whether Tyrone can exploit those however i have my doubts . It will take something like a latish goal to beat Dublin

castletownman · 13-08-2018 4:45pm

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

And earlier I posted my argument why Tyrone could be close (and even qualified it by saying Dublin will still win), and backed it up with facts, and still someone jumped down my throat. It seems you cannot mention Dublin in any sort of negative breath on here without being accused of heresy.

Gael85 · 13-08-2018 5:23pm

castletownman wrote: »

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

And earlier I posted my argument why Tyrone could be close (and even qualified it by saying Dublin will still win), and backed it up with facts, and still someone jumped down my throat. It seems you cannot mention Dublin in any sort of negative breath on here without being accused of heresy.

James Horan has done 3 times.(Counihan,Gilroy,McGuinness).Mayo also knocked Tyrone in 04 under John Maughan. Alan Dillon played in 4 games.

Stoner · 13-08-2018 5:25pm

Gael85 wrote:

James Horan has done 3 times.(Counihan,Gilroy,McGuinness).Mayo also knocked Tyrone in 04 under John Maughan. Alan Dillon played in 4 games.

He didn't win any AIs though Gael

You got a stat wrong. First time for everything

Gael85 · 13-08-2018 5:29pm

Stoner wrote: »

He didn't win any AIs though Gael

You got a stat wrong. First time for everything

:):)

STB. · 13-08-2018 6:19pm

castletownman wrote: »

A thought struck me: If Tyrone win, will Mickey Harte become the first manager to have won four AI titles by beating the reigning AI champions, and four different AI winning managers as well (Kernan, O'Connor, O'Shea, Galvin)?

Can't think of anyone that would have a similar record.

Is that some obscure stat meant to be relevant in some way ? Do you not see the inadequacy of what that stat says ?

Mickey Harte has been managing the Tyrone for 20 years. Yes he has managed to win 3 All Ireland's in that time (which is good) the last of them 10 years ago. In the intervening years ie the last 10, Tyrone have failed to even make an AI final even once outside this year all under his management.

Jim Gavin was appointed the Dubs manager in October 2012. His success record as a manager in such short period of time is unprecedented.

So just incase "one of the current hill 16 army" hasn't spelt it out for you there is no comparison with actual performances and your off the wall irrelevant stats.

If you want to do a comparitive head to head do it on their performances. The starter question for you is when did Tyrone last beat Dublin beit a league or championship game. ? ?

Let's hope we have a closer game than the last championship meeting in Croke Park between the two.

C__MC · 13-08-2018 6:44pm

One game that always for me that always led this Dublin dominance was the 2010 QF v Tyrone . Dublin became men that day and that win set them up. It was the first time in a long time they slayed a big gun

All Ireland football final 2nd September 2018 - MOD NOTE POST #1 #1187 UPDATED

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