All Ireland football final 2nd September 2018 - MOD NOTE POST #1 #1187 UPDATED

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yep, it does say something.
As does Harte's ability to win the finals he was involved in.
Really is a test of two managers. Fascinating in it's own way.

Since Gavin took over for the 2013 season, they have played 7 times (6 league and 1 championship match) 4 Dublin wins, 2 draws, both in the league. Last Tyrone win was 2013 in the league and Dublin beat them in the subsequent final. Will be interesting.

yobr

STB. wrote: »

If you want to do a comparitive head to head do it on their performances. The starter question for you is when did Tyrone last beat Dublin beit a league or championship game. ? ?

I was interested in this too, the answer is the first time they met when Jim Gavin was Dublin manager, back in the 2013 league campaign. Dublin met them in the subsequent final which they won.
Both of those matches were one point victories.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

Since Gavin took over for the 2013 season, they have played 7 times (6 league and 1 championship match) 4 Dublin wins, 2 draws, both in the league. Last Tyrone win was 2013 in the league and Dublin beat them in the subsequent final. Will be interesting.

It is quite clear in the year stats I posted showing Dublin's winning margins that 'finals' are different beasts altogether.

All other games and histories seem to go out the window.

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

20 minutes to go Tyrone will be within 3 - and then we will see what Gavin and Harte are made of.[/QUOTE

If that's the position Tyrone are in with 20 minutes to go they'll be well beaten by the end.

Powerhouse

robbiezero wrote: »

Dublin to win by 6 or more I think. just superior in most areas of the pitch vs a fairly average Tyrone team.
I give Tyrone no chance. if there is to be a somewhat surprising result I think it's more likely to be that dubs win by 12+ instead of the expected 6 ish.
hard game for the neutral to pick a team to favour.

But if you pick a team to favour then you are no longer neutral anyway?

STB.

Last year's championship semi final was also the test of two managers in Gavin's favour by some way.

Sean Cavanaghs last game. Remember some great pics of him and Cluxton.

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is quite clear in the year stats I posted showing Dublin's winning margins that 'finals' are different beasts altogether.

All other games and histories seem to go out the window.

I was responding to your second point about the tactical battle between the managers. In that context, previous meetings are important, and I think it’s clear that Gavin has the upper hand.

castletownman

STB- I wasn't using the stat as some sort of anti-Dublin or Jim Gavin remark. I was genuinely wondering whether any other manager done the same.

I haven't once questioned Gavin's standing as an all-time great manager either. You are putting words in my mouth. My original comment was giving a reason why I think it COULD be closer than predicted, using Harte's previous experiences in the finals, but still said that Dublin will more than likely win. And I don't know what relevance mentioning Tyrone not making an AI final in the last ten years has to your argument. Sure by the same token I could say Dublin weren't anywhere near an AI when Tyrone had that great team too.

You must be getting a bit nervous ahead of September 2nd

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Quite easy to see why that is if you wanted to.

Tyrone compete in a far more competitive province than Dublin do with more banana skin matches on their route to a final than Dublin have faced over the years.

Not sure Ulster is as banana-skin laden as you appear to think. Donegal have reached seven of the last eight Ulster finals.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

I was responding to your second point about the tactical battle between the managers. In that context, previous meetings are important, and I think it’s clear that Gavin has the upper hand.

Gavin you would have to say, based on the stats and facts, has an issue with getting his teams to perform to their high scoring best in finals. Winning only one by more than a point. Harte has won his by 3 points or more with teams not renowned for racking up high scores.

Just stating the fact that there is a chink there that another can exploit.

STB.

castletownman wrote: »

You must be getting a bit nervous ahead of September 2nd

Always

Genuinely I think that Mickey will set out to disrupt the flow of the game for a start. There'll be dragging diving and cards. Lots of cards.

And that's fine. What annoys me the most is the gamesmanship that I've seen Tyrone players adopting by running and encroaching on static free takers. They did it against Dublin in Omagh and Monaghan at Croke Park. They have been doing it for some time and refs have been ignoring it.

STB.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

yobr wrote: »

I was responding to your second point about the tactical battle between the managers. In that context, previous meetings are important, and I think it’s clear that Gavin has the upper hand.

Gavin you would have to say, based on the stats and facts, has an issue with getting his teams to perform to their high scoring best in finals. Winning only one by more than a point. Harte has won his by 3 points or more with teams not renowned for racking up high scores.

Just stating the fact that there is a chink there that another can exploit.

What exactly has Harte been winning with this current crop of players

You seem to be missing the winning part in those points you are trying to make!

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gavin you would have to say, based on the stats and facts, has an issue with getting his teams to perform to their high scoring best in finals. Winning only one by more than a point. Harte has won his by 3 points or more with teams not renowned for racking up high scores.

Just stating the fact that there is a chink there that another can exploit.

It is true that Dublin have won 5 of their All Ireland’s by the bare minimum. It is also true that they have not won them by the margin of a Leinster final victory.

If, as you suggest, that is a chink, and I don’t agree that it is, then Tyrone didn’t exploit it last year in the semi final or on the other two meetings we have had with them this year. Also, no other team that Dublin have played in those final’s have managed to exploit it either.

FrancieBrady

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure Ulster is as banana-skin laden as you appear to think. Donegal have reached seven of the last eight Ulster finals.

And won 4 of them.
I don't think anyone would claim Donegal 'dominated' Ulster in those years in the way Dublin have continued to totally dominate a province with 3 more teams in it.

A more revealing stat would be the amount of times an Ulster champion loses in the first round of the next year's championship. Happens often.

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Gavin you would have to say, based on the stats and facts, has an issue with getting his teams to perform to their high scoring best in finals. Winning only one by more than a point. Harte has won his by 3 points or more with teams not renowned for racking up high scores.

Just stating the fact that there is a chink there that another can exploit.

Some context is necessary here. Dublin scored 17 points in last year's All-Ireland football final. This has been bettered just four times in the entire history of All-Ireland football finals and two of those were 80 minute games.

The previous year they scored 15 which while at first glance seems modest has been surpassed just nine times in the other 32 finals played during the 70 minute era. In other words 23 All-Ireland winners did not score more points in the final than Dublin in 2016.

Gavin - as you would expect when the bar is raised - might have an issue with getting Dublin, in an All-Ireland final, to equal the scores they put up against weak Leinster opposition. He is, however quite good at getting them to score more than the opposition in the All-Ireland final.

warsaw2018

dublin by 10

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

It is true that Dublin have won 5 of their All Ireland’s by the bare minimum. It is also true that they have not won them by the margin of a Leinster final victory.

If, as you suggest, that is a chink, and I don’t agree that it is, then Tyrone didn’t exploit it last year in the semi final or on the other two meetings we have had with them this year. Also, no other team that Dublin have played in those final’s have managed to exploit it either.

If you can't handle the notion that this is a final and history doesn't matter in a final (as Gavin/Dublin themselves have clearly shown) then you seem to be saying that nobody need turn up to play Dublin?

That would be arrogance in extremis would it not?

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A more revealing stat would be the amount of times an Ulster champion loses in the first round of the next year's championship. Happens often.

That's your imagination playing tricks with you. This hasn't happened since 2009.

FrancieBrady

Powerhouse wrote: »

That's your imagination playing tricks with you. This hasn't happened since 2009.

How quickly they forget. Monaghan knocked out the 2017 champions who are now in the All Ireland final having beaten Monaghan who were knocked out of the Ulster Championship by Fermanagh.

So out in defense of Dublin it is impossible even to get you guys and girls to accept that Ulster is a far and away more competitive province than Leinster.

Funny boys and girls.

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you can't handle the notion that this is a final and history doesn't matter in a final (as Gavin/Dublin themselves have clearly shown) then you seem to be saying that nobody need turn up to play Dublin?

That would be arrogance in extremis would it not?

The fact that I have a different view to you which I have been able to support does not make my view arrogant.

Also, you have tied your argument up in knots. You have ignored the fact that your whole argument, that Dublin are in some way vulnerable as they have won the majority of their final matches by one point, is based on the HISTORY of Dublin’s performance in these matches. If, as you say, I think it is twice now, that history in finals is irrelevant, then your point about Dublin’s potential vulnerability has no basis.

Also, as you say that “history doesn’t matter in a final” then it also demolishes your other point about Mickey Harte’s great record in finals.

STB.

yobr wrote: »

Also, as you say that “history doesn’t matter in a final” then it also demolishes your other point about Mickey Harte’s great record in finals.

Constantly talking in riddles this chap. The mad thing is Tyrone have no recent form as they haven't made it to a all Ireland final in 10 years.

This chaps own county managed to fluff their lines twice last weekend and then he comes on pontificating about the dubs not doing enough in finals. Finals they've been winning all around them.

Gas.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

The fact that I have a different view to you which I have been able to support does not make my view arrogant.

Also, you have tied your argument up in knots. You have ignored the fact that your whole argument, that Dublin are in some way vulnerable as they have won the majority of their final matches by one point, is based on the HISTORY of Dublin’s performance in these matches. If, as you say, I think it is twice now, that history in finals is irrelevant, then your point about Dublin’s potential vulnerability has no basis.

Also, as you say that “history doesn’t matter in a final” then it also demolishes your other point about Mickey Harte’s great record in finals.

I only post Mickey's record because you guys conveniently ignore it. It's almost as impressive as Gavin's in finals.

There is a rather disparaging- anti the spirit of the game - term that has crept into Dublin fandom's vocabulary, the very arrogant taunt of 'bottlers' to describe Mayo's effort against them, that essentailly came down to a kick of the ball and luck.

You cannot apply that to Tyrone in finals.

Again, that makes it a fascinating duel for me. Two successful managers going head to head.

yobr

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I only post Mickey's record because you guys conveniently ignore it. It's almost as impressive as Gavin's in finals.

There is a rather disparaging- anti the spirit of the game - term that has crept into Dublin fandom's vocabulary, the very arrogant taunt of 'bottlers' to describe Mayo's effort against them, that essentailly came down to a kick of the ball and luck.

You cannot apply that to Tyrone in finals.

Again, that makes it a fascinating duel for me. Two successful managers going head to head.

Grand so. You continue to advance an argument (anti-Dublin) based on history but dismiss any other argument (pro-Dublin) which is also based on history. Then you throw out some point which is completely irrelevant to what is under discussion. I think I know where you are coming from. Good night Francie.

doc_17

I’m looking forward to this game. Hopefully it’ll be close with a Dublin win. Paul Mannion is one of my favourite players. Reminds me a lot of Paul Flynn. Can score and is a brilliant, hardworking tackler and defender. Hope he gets Footballer of the Year.

FrancieBrady

yobr wrote: »

Grand so. You continue to advance an argument (anti-Dublin) based on history but dismiss any other argument (pro-Dublin) which is also based on history. Then you throw out some point which is completely irrelevant to what is under discussion. I think I know where you are coming from. Good night Francie.

Facts here yobr: 1. Gavin's teams have not won a final by more than two points, despite racking up high winning margins in all other parts of the championship.

Fact 2. Tyrone don't have a record under Harte of losing finals or 'bottling them' as they say.

Fact 3: There is something for a manger to work on there, and I hope he does because football needs it.

You guys seem to have a problem whenever somebody puts facts in front of you if they even suggest there is a chink in Dublin.
Invariably, those stating those facts are told to go to bed/have a nap or the poster themselves goes to bed in a tantrum, mild or otherwise. :D

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

How quickly they forget. Monaghan knocked out the 2017 champions who are now in the All Ireland final having beaten Monaghan who were knocked out of the Ulster Championship by Fermanagh.

So out in defense of Dublin it is impossible even to get you guys and girls to accept that Ulster is a far and away more competitive province than Leinster.

Funny boys and girls.

Sorry, you are right of course about Monaghan this year - I remember people commenting that it hadn't happened since 2009. The problem with your claim is that you said it "happens often" which it clearly doesn't.

The question of competitiveness or relative competitiveness of provinces is another matter. What are the terms of reference?

Dublin have dominated Leinster but since they have also dominated the All-Ireland championship itself this does not necessarily render Leinster relatively uncompetitive.

Six counties have played in Ulster finals this decade. Seven Leinster counties have done so. If you use that as a measure t suggests the depth of competition holds up fairly well in Leinster.

Granted the National League suggests Ulster is better but only marginally - Div 1 teams 2018 League: Leinster 2, Ulster 3; Division 2 teams: Leinster 2, Ulster 2; Division 3 teams: Leinster 4 Ulster 3. In other words eight of Ulsters' nine counties are spread reasonably evenly across the top three divisions of the League. Leinster can make the same claim with its top 8 counties.

You could consider an individual measure such as the performance of Kildare in 2018 - they lost to Carlow in Leinster but beat Derry and Fermanagh (Ulster finalists) in the qualifiers. Then look at Meath who were beaten by Longford (a Division 3 team) but gave Tyrone their fill of it in the qualifiers losing by just a point. I don't think anyone would claim that Leinster is a stronger province than Ulster but when you examine things more closely the gap is not really significant.

And it certainly does not provide such an advantage as to explain Dublin's national dominance, no more than suggesting Dublin would struggle in Connacht as it's more "competitive". The main reason for the veneer of "competitiveness" in Ulster is that there are a lot of middling enough teams not good enough consistently to rise above the rest though Donegal have made a fair stab at it in recent years. Incidentally their four games in this year's Ulster championship featured margins of 8, 6, 13 and 12 points. No obvious banana skins there.

Slattsy

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Facts here yobr: 1. Gavin's teams have not won a final by more than two points, despite racking up high winning margins in all other parts of the championship.

Fact 2. Tyrone don't have a record under Harte of losing finals or 'bottling them' as they say.

Fact 3: There is something for a manger to work on there, and I hope he does because football needs it.

You guys seem to have a problem whenever somebody puts facts in front of you if they even suggest there is a chink in Dublin.
Invariably, those stating those facts are told to go to bed/have a nap or the poster themselves goes to bed in a tantrum, mild or otherwise. :D

Fact? 2015 says hi

Clueless.

Powerhouse

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fact 2. Tyrone don't have a record under Harte of losing finals or 'bottling them' as they say.

In the last eight years Tyrone have played in just two Ulster Finals, one National League final and no All-Ireland final. There really is not enough statistical evidence in recent times to properly assess Tyrone's finals record under Harte.

FrancieBrady

Powerhouse wrote: »

Sorry, you are right of course about Monaghan this year - I remember people commenting that it hadn't happened since 2009. The problem with your claim is that you said it "happens often" which it clearly doesn't.

The question of competitiveness or relative competitiveness of provinces is another matter. What are the terms of reference?

Dublin have dominated Leinster but since they have also dominated the All-Ireland championship itself this does not necessarily render Leinster relatively uncompetitive.

Six counties have played in Ulster finals this decade. Seven Leinster counties have done so. If you use that as a measure t suggests the depth of competition holds up fairly well in Leinster.

Granted the National League suggests Ulster is better but only marginally - Div 1 teams 2018 League: Leinster 2, Ulster 3; Division 2 teams: Leinster 2, Ulster 2; Division 3 teams: Leinster 4 Ulster 3. In other words eight of Ulsters' nine counties are spread reasonably evenly across the top three divisions of the League. Leinster can make the same claim with its top 8 counties.

You could consider an individual measure such as the performance of Kildare in 2018 - they lost to Carlow in Leinster but beat Derry and Fermanagh (Ulster finalists) in the qualifiers. Then look at Meath who were beaten by Longford (a Division 3 team) but gave Tyrone their fill of it in the qualifiers losing by just a point. I don't think anyone would claim that Leinster is a stronger province than Ulster but when you examine things more closely the gap is not really significant.

And it certainly does not provide such an advantage as to explain Dublin's national dominance, no more than suggesting Dublin would struggle in Connacht as it's more "competitive". The main reason for the veneer of "competitiveness" in Ulster is that there are a lot of middling enough teams not good enough consistently to rise above the rest though Donegal have made a fair stab at it in recent years. Incidentally their four games in this year's Ulster championship featured margins of 8, 6, 13 and 12 points. No obvious banana skins there.

Dublin have won 13 of the last 16 Leinster championships (I think that is the figure??). Do we really have to say anymore about relative competitiveness? Yes a team like Meath or Kildare will occasionally raise their game, but it doesn't make the province 'competitive'.
Ulster is a nightmare to compete in in comparison and is renowned for being competitive.

Nobody is denying Dublin's dominance of the national scene.

FrancieBrady

Slattsy wrote: »

Fact? 2015 says hi

Clueless.

Apologies, that was meant to say 3 points.


A one point slip and I am 'clueless'.

You got me Slattsy, you got me good!! :D:D :rolleyes: