Is Brendan Howlin in trouble?

blanch152 · 04-08-2018 9:51pm #1

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/16-labour-councillors-back-brendan-howlins-leadership-after-quartet-call-for-him-to-step-down-37184076.html

When I read this article and see that Brendan Howlin has got the backing of 16 councillors after the last few days, I think to myself that he has escaped the worst as there were only four calling for this resignation. Then I check the list of councillors on the Labour Party website:

https://www.labour.ie/people/

There are 49 of them. 29 have said nothing.

Then I think about the silence from former TDs and from current TDs, and I wonder is there something more to this leadership challenge. Do any of you have any better information on what is going on?

L1011 · 05-08-2018 2:27pm

Unless the party rules are changed to allow a leader from the Seanad there's no sensible replacement. Alan Kelly is tainted for at least another Dail term due to IW, even if it was mostly cleaning up Hogan's mess.

If Nash, Humphreys, O Riordain or Lynch get back in as TDs I think any one of them would do better with the public as leader

Sad Professor · 05-08-2018 3:58pm

Other than Kelly, who else would want to be leader?

Labour's best hope is to keep their head down until the public start to forget their betrayal and Howlin is the man to do that. Sure, you'd barely know he was in the Dail. Making Kelly leader would just hasten the party's demise. But I assume they have to keep dangling the leadership in front of him to stop him leaving for his true home in Fine Gael.

James Brown · 07-08-2018 2:01pm

They need Fianna Fail to get back in then they can build their base back up criticising Fianna Fail policy. They are currently too tied to the current Fine Gael regime. A similar problem as they had after they partnered with Fianna Fail. They need to take a good look at who they really are or profess to be.

07-08-2018 2:13pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They need Fianna Fail to get back in then they can build their base back up criticising Fianna Fail policy. They are currently too tied to the current Fine Gael regime. A similar problem as they had after they partnered with Fianna Fail. They need to take a good look at who they really are or profess to be.

This is one of the issues, they can't criticise the current government after implementing the austerity the way they did, right alongside them.

They committed political suicide in 2012. They should have led the opposition and mounted a proper challenge. As it was they've stuck us with the status quo and left us with no centre left option.

BarryD2 · 07-08-2018 2:23pm

Who's the best alternative. Not a huge fan of Howlin but Alan Kelly is a fierce chancer altogether. Nearly any time I hear him, he seems to drop clangers. I suppose he has more charisma but you need substance as well.

James Brown · 07-08-2018 2:42pm

They should beg Roisin Shortall's forgiveness and make her leader. She's more Labour than Labour.

Squatter · 07-08-2018 2:45pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They should beg Roisin Shortall's forgiveness and make her leader. She's more Labour than Labour.

Roisin has serious problems dealing with men! Just ask Stephen Donnelly (or James Reilly).

And Alan "the mouth" Kelly is little more than a self-promoting windbag - his commitment to socialism is about as fickle as my support for Irish Womens' hockey!

bobbysands81 · 07-08-2018 2:46pm

Labour are a shambles.

Brendan Howlin cut the wages of all public sector workers when in Govt, he doesn’t deserve to be leader for that alone.

Alan Kelly doesn’t have the temperament to be leader, nor does he have the ability to bring people with him. Anyone that works with him finds him incredibly difficult to deal with.

Red_Wake · 07-08-2018 2:47pm

They'll merge with the Soc Dem's in a few years and start growing again by hoovering up the less intellectually damaged elements of the current left in Ireland.

James Brown · 07-08-2018 2:49pm

Squatter wrote: »

Roisin has serious problems dealing with men! Just ask Stephen Donnelly (or James Reilly).

And Alan "the mouth" Kelly is little more than a self-promoting windbag - his commitment to socialism is about as fickle as my support for Irish Womens' hockey!

The Reilly problem was crony clinic allocation, not leaving the toilet seat up.

Grab All Association · 07-08-2018 3:08pm

Do they think they'll win more seats with the egomaniac narcissist Alan Kelly?

The people of Nenagh were fully convinced Apple were opening a store in the old O'Connors site. Their shock when a Mr. Price opened

His canvassers were telling people everything at the door. I wouldn't be surprised if they said he created the solar system.

He claimed credit here in Thurles for CCTV (which was funded by Pobal years before he ever entered politics), saving Templemore station (it's a mainline station)

Newstalk were in Thurles with their mobile studio, Lowry and McGrath interviewed and he wasn't invited. He was driven state car to Thurles and made a scene like a child in front of everyone in Liberty Square.

Do they really want this man to lead their party?

Squatter · 07-08-2018 3:14pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The Reilly problem was crony clinic allocation, not leaving the toilet seat up.

That was the Shortall spin right enough.

Hitman3000 · 07-08-2018 3:20pm

Labour party did incredible damage to themselves in 2011 with their every little hurts campaign. I'm of the opinion the older members Rabitte and Co knew they would only get one more chance in government and said anything they could they obtain a ministerial post. They enthusiastically implemented every FG cut and measure. Spear heading Irish Water when they knew it was toxic demonstrated the arrogance normally associated with FG was astounding for a party that claims to represent the workers.
Labour I believe are finished.

emo72 · 07-08-2018 3:32pm

They'll never be forgiven. I expected FG to put the austerity boot into us. We all thought labour would protect us. It's akin to a poor sick fella lying on the ground taking a beating from a bully, and your hoping for a friend to help you, but he sneaks in on the sly and puts a sneaky boot into you when your not looking.

They're finished.

James Brown · 07-08-2018 3:53pm

Squatter wrote: »

That was the Shortall spin right enough.

Can you elaborate? She wasn't calling out Reilly on clinic allocation? She certainly was and Labour failing to support her or call Reilly out was a major reason why she left or do you know otherwise?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw · 07-08-2018 6:52pm

I don't think Alan Kelly would make a great leader. He is too closely associated with the Irish Water disaster. He was its most enthusiastic cheerleader, way ahead of anyone in Fine Gael. Even the name "Irish Water" gives off such bad vibes, they should consider changing the name.

Turnipman · 07-08-2018 10:46pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can you elaborate? She wasn't calling out Reilly on clinic allocation? She certainly was and Labour failing to support her or call Reilly out was a major reason why she left or do you know otherwise?

Yes, I can elaborate. Junior Minister Rosie drew up her little list and then the Minister (Reilly) augmented it as advised by the HSE so Rosie took the huff and flounced away. The poor dear hadn't a notion about Ministerial power so she had deluded herself into thinking that she had statutory responsibility for something!

Grab All Association · 08-08-2018 12:00am

The same James Reilly who in 2011 closed beds in the Hospital of Assumption, a modern 5 year old facility HSE nursing home whilst he was shareholder in a private nursing home in nearby Carrick On Suir.

bobbysands81 · 08-08-2018 12:49am

298is1tkn6f4l0 wrote: »

I don't think Alan Kelly would make a great leader. He is too closely associated with the Irish Water disaster. He was its most enthusiastic cheerleader, way ahead of anyone in Fine Gael. Even the name "Irish Water" gives off such bad vibes, they should consider changing the name.

The fact that he’s universally disliked will also work against him.

Squatter · 08-08-2018 11:31am

Grab All Association wrote: »

The same James Reilly who in 2011 closed beds in the Hospital of Assumption, a modern 5 year old facility HSE nursing home whilst he was shareholder in a private nursing home in nearby Carrick On Suir.

The beds closed by the HSE, you mean? Or have you evidence of Ministerial interference for personal gain?

James Brown · 08-08-2018 2:58pm

Turnipman wrote: »

Yes, I can elaborate. Junior Minister Rosie drew up her little list and then the Minister (Reilly) augmented it as advised by the HSE so Rosie took the huff and flounced away. The poor dear hadn't a notion about Ministerial power so she had deluded herself into thinking that she had statutory responsibility for something!

She was the only minister looking out for the tax payer on that issue. She should be commended. Reilly was feathering his own nest. She called him out. It was two fingers to the electorate thinking we'd a new way of doing business with FG. All your sexism aside, you are plainly wrong. Attempted to get two primary care sites in his own constituency.
Letting that slide lost Labour support. It was the beginning of the end for them.

Annasopra · 08-08-2018 3:58pm

This is game playing by Alan Kelly. He knows that O Riordain, Nash or another person might have a better chance at winning leadership post an election so he reckons - get in there first is a good game strategy. This isnt genuinely about the Labour Party or Howlins leadership of the party at all. It is about Alan Kellys ego. Absolutely nothing else.

James Brown · 08-08-2018 4:26pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This is game playing by Alan Kelly. He knows that O Riordain, Nash or another person might have a better chance at winning leadership post an election so he reckons - get in there first is a good game strategy. This isnt genuinely about the Labour Party or Howlins leadership of the party at all. It is about Alan Kellys ego. Absolutely nothing else.

I don't see the point either. Labour need some time to think about who they are. Regardless of who the leader is they'll have that time in spades.

DickSwiveller Returns · 15-08-2018 10:41pm

They have no purpose at the moment. They have pretty much lost their working class base and have been eclipsed by Fine Gael as the party of middle class liberals. It will disappear in a few years.

Loafing Oaf · 19-08-2018 7:01pm

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/o-riordain-warns-restive-party-against-labour-leadership-heave-9623ql39f

Aodhan O'Riordain channeling the spirit of Gerry Collins: "I pleaded with Alan Kelly, I told him you're bursting up the party, you're showing frightening immaturity...I myself have no leadership ambitions.":pac:

Annasopra · 19-08-2018 7:13pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/o-riordain-warns-restive-party-against-labour-leadership-heave-9623ql39f

Aodhan O'Riordain channeling the spirit of Gerry Collins: "I pleaded with Alan Kelly, I told him you're bursting up the party, you're showing frightening immaturity...I myself have no leadership ambitions.":pac:

Ya wha? None of what you just typed is in the article

19-08-2018 7:14pm

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/o-riordain-warns-restive-party-against-labour-leadership-heave-9623ql39f

Aodhan O'Riordain channeling the spirit of Gerry Collins: "I pleaded with Alan Kelly, I told him you're bursting up the party, you're showing frightening immaturity...I myself have no leadership ambitions.":pac:

I mean who could have predicted that joining FG in attacking their base would destroy the party.

Oh wait I did, along with several others, but were told where to go at a party meeting

Beechwoodspark · 19-08-2018 7:18pm

Howlin has been ineffectual.

Kelly has the albatross of Irish water around his neck.

Lot of labour members can’t stand him.

Don’t think he’s overly popular among the public either.

He seems to be very ambitious and in a hurry.

L1011 · 19-08-2018 7:26pm

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

He seems to be very ambitious and in a hurry.

Because this is his only chance as any one of Lynch, O'Riordain, Humphreys or Nash would be more likely to win should they get returned to the Dail.

However, if he did get in now he'd have to either enter Government or there'd be another leadership election anyway under party rules.

Loafing Oaf · 19-08-2018 7:35pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Ya wha? None of what you just typed is in the article

I was referencing this infamous episode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Collins_(politician)

In 1991, tensions began to surface within Fianna Fáil regarding the continued leadership of Charles Haughey. Minister for Finance Albert Reynolds was the main challenger, however, he had little support from his cabinet colleagues. In an infamous interview on the Six One News Collins made a plea to Reynolds asking him not to challenge Haughey for the leadership of the Fianna Fáil party: "This is going to wreck our party right down the centre and it's going to burst up government". The incident was much parodied, particularly by Dermot Morgan later that year.

of which O'Riordain's recent maneuverings seem to me to be strangely reminiscent...

DickSwiveller Returns · 19-08-2018 8:58pm

I've always liked Alan Kelly. I've no idea why. I don't like Labour and I'm not a liberal but I've always preferred him to other Labour members.

19-08-2018 9:02pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I've always liked Alan Kelly. I've no idea why. I don't like Labour and I'm not a liberal but I've always preferred him to other Labour members.

Because he's none of these things either.
FG seems to be his natural home

Annasopra · 20-08-2018 11:39am

Deleted User wrote: »

Because he's none of these things either.
FG seems to be his natural home

More ff if you ask me

Larbre34 · 31-08-2018 10:26am

Alan Kelly on Tipp FM this morning ready to offer the ultimate sacrifice and lay down his life selflessly and lead the Labour Party.......... if a vacancy arose....

Apparently Labour is not connecting with the public and he is the man to offer new energy and vision.

Sure.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 11:20am

Can't link it but the Journal is carrying an article claiming that Alan Kelly has called on Howling to go. If he does and Kelly gets the gig that's the final nail in Labour's coffin. Go for it Alan.

aroundthehouse · 31-08-2018 11:22am

Alan Kelly is some dose, he would single handidly drive labour into the ground

31-08-2018 11:31am

aroundthehouse wrote: »

Alan Kelly is some dose, he would single handidly drive labour into the ground

He's done untold damage already. Christ that Frank Underwood nonsense alone, never mind IW

Red_Wake · 31-08-2018 3:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

aroundthehouse wrote: »

Alan Kelly is some dose, he would single handidly drive labour into the ground

He's done untold damage already. Christ that Frank Underwood nonsense alone, never mind IW

I think the electorate would forget that pretty quickly.

My concern is that he'd move Labour into more populist territory and they'd just become another collection of crackpot leftists with no intentions of ever going into Government.

Ireland badly needs a responsible party of the Left like Labour to grow.

31-08-2018 3:22pm

Red_Wake wrote: »

I think the electorate would forget that pretty quickly.

My concern is that he'd move Labour into more populist territory and they'd just become another collection of crackpot leftists with no intentions of ever going into Government.

Ireland badly needs a responsible party of the Left like Labour to grow.

Go into government? That's what destroyed the party in the first place

This country destroys minority parties at election time as they blame the minority for not magically fixing all the ills of FF or FG

Labour had the chance to lead the last opposition and be in with a huge shout for actually leading a government this time around but shat the bed

Red_Wake · 31-08-2018 3:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Red_Wake wrote: »

I think the electorate would forget that pretty quickly.

My concern is that he'd move Labour into more populist territory and they'd just become another collection of crackpot leftists with no intentions of ever going into Government.

Ireland badly needs a responsible party of the Left like Labour to grow.

Go into government? That's what destroyed the party in the first place

This country destroys minority parties at election time as they blame the minority for not magically fixing all the ills of FF or FG

Labour had the chance to lead the last opposition and be in with a huge shout for actually leading a government this time around but shat the bed

It's always a debate for smaller parties whether it's better to go into government and get some of their agenda done[with the large risk of getting destroyed in the following election], or waiting forever in the wings in the hopes of becoming the senior partner.

Bear in mind that no party has successfully managed the latter. I can't blame them for following the former-you can't be building for the future forever[as Arsene Wenger found out to his cost

].

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 31-08-2018 3:35pm

aroundthehouse wrote: »

Alan Kelly is some dose, he would single handidly drive labour into the ground

He's a right gowlbag alright.

Sad Professor · 31-08-2018 4:09pm

They way I see it, there's no reason for Labour to exist anymore. They are a centre-right liberal party. But Ireland already has a centre-right liberal party. They are called Leo's Fine Gael. What Ireland needs, and what Labour has falsely presented itself as for decades, is a genuinely centre-left social democratic party. One that is prepared to go into government - but not with right-wing parties.

VonZan · 31-08-2018 4:16pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Go into government? That's what destroyed the party in the first place

This country destroys minority parties at election time as they blame the minority for not magically fixing all the ills of FF or FG

Labour had the chance to lead the last opposition and be in with a huge shout for actually leading a government this time around but shat the bed

In order to get into government in this county Labour have to make major concesessions on their ideal policies as Ireland just isn't a left wing country. In order to govern or have influence they have to, largely, abandon their idealogy which is not a recipe for success.

Labour can only become relevant again. Although Labour should be commended for at least trying unlike some other left-wing TDs. The left of Ireland is better in the hands of Laboutr than champagne socialists like Murphy and RBB.

oscarBravo · 31-08-2018 6:21pm

Sad Professor wrote: »

What Ireland needs, and what Labour has falsely presented itself as for decades, is a genuinely centre-left social democratic party. One that is prepared to go into government - but not with right-wing parties.

So... with whom?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they go into government with FF or FG, they're propping up right-wing parties. If they refuse to go into government, they're watching from the sidelines as the right-wing parties divide the spoils.

banie01 · 31-08-2018 6:26pm

Whilst Labour are in trouble and in real danger of becoming irrelevant if they don't answer some hard questions on policy and the direction of the party.
If Alan Kelly is found to be the answer to any of those questions, Labour will be reduced to a footnote.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 6:28pm

oscarBravo wrote:

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they go into government with FF or FG, they're propping up right-wing parties. If they refuse to go into government, they're watching from the sidelines as the right-wing parties divide the spoils.

Labour had an opportunity in 2011 to become the largest opposition party and let FG govern on their own. 2016 I believe would have seen a Labour dominated government. Instead the old guard of Labour saw a final opportunity of a ministerial role. I fully believe they knew they were throwing the new and younger Labour TD's under a bus driven by FG.

oscarBravo · 31-08-2018 6:53pm

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Labour had an opportunity in 2011 to become the largest opposition party and let FG govern on their own.

With 76 seats?

2016 I believe would have seen a Labour dominated government.

With what coalition partners?

Instead the old guard of Labour saw a final opportunity of a ministerial role. I fully believe they knew they were throwing the new and younger Labour TD's under a bus driven by FG.

The problem with the argument that if they had done x, y would have resulted is that it is unknowable. You may believe that, but your hindsight-informed beliefs in 2018 are completely and utterly useless to someone making a decision as to whether or not to go into coalition in 2011.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 6:58pm

oscarBravo wrote:

With what coalition partners?

I said dominated, therefore in a position to push for more of their policies.

Hitman3000 · 31-08-2018 7:00pm

oscarBravo wrote:

The problem with the argument that if they had done x, y would have resulted is that it is unknowable. You may believe that, but your hindsight-informed beliefs in 2018 are completely and utterly useless to someone making a decision as to whether or not to go into coalition in 2011.

Plenty of the labour grassroots voted against Labour going into government in 2011. As an aside what I have seen in the past when a smaller party enters government allows me to make an assumption as to what Labour could have avoided.

01-09-2018 12:07am

oscarBravo wrote: »

to someone making a decision as to whether or not to go into coalition in 2011.

I was there, that was the truth of it

Is Brendan Howlin in trouble?

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