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Trans Pride

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    #32
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    Jesus H Christ I'm not defending bigotry. Look yes it is a bloody shítty world full of assholes, TERFs, SWERFs, biggots and whatever else is waiting to come crawling out of the woodwork. But you know what isn't going to bloody help that, misconstruing what someone who is on the same fúcking side as you is saying and taking offence when they try to introduce some nuance to the conversation. The world isn't black and white and if you try to view it in that way you're only going to hurt yourself.


    Are you done now?

    I listen and talk to people who want to understand and be educated - I don't waste my time on trolls and bigots. There is a clear distinction and it's often one very easily made.

    Thanks though.


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    #33
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Are you done now?

    I listen and talk to people who want to understand and be educated - I don't waste my time on trolls and bigots. There is a clear distinction and it's often one very easily made.

    Thanks though.

    As do I however I think we differ as to where the point is where someone can be educated. Feck even that's a bloody patronising term to use.

    Also loosely agreeing with a point someone you may consider to be a bigot is not necessarily defending said bigot.

    Its interactions like this that make me and many like me reluctant to properly engage with the left in this country.


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    #34
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »

    Its interactions like this that make me and many like me reluctant to properly engage with the left in this country.

    Just so you know, I actually don't care what you, on the right, think. Only the people responsible for our health care. If you want to remain ignorant... cool.

    Ta


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    #35
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Just so you know, I actually don't care what you, on the right, think. Only the people responsible for our health care. If you want to remain ignorant... cool.

    Ta

    Eh on the right? Cop on to yourself will you. I abhor them yet were stuck with them ruling over us no small part due the left being unable to organise a loss up in a brewery due to constant infighting and shouting down those who want the same thing but are more interested in finding practical ways to achieve them beyond making loud noises


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    #36
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    Eh on the right? Cop on to yourself will you. I abhor them yet were stuck with them ruling over us no small part due the left being unable to organise a loss up in a brewery due to constant infighting and shouting down those who want the same thing but are more interested in finding practical ways to achieve them beyond making loud noises

    If you want to have a discussion on the diverse political landscape this country has, by all means start a thread somewhere else on Boards.

    This thread is about trans people and their rights, and you have positioned yourself on the wrong side of this discussion - i.e. the politically aligned right side (not to be confused with the correct side)


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    #37
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,982 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Mod

    P1 - JTF take your issues with each other to pm and stop dragging the thread off topic

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #38
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Ok so I think the awareness has been raised here. What are the next practical steps?

    To me the key issue we can get a win on is increasing the number of consultants who can refer people for medical transition. I was telling my friends in Manchester we only have 2 and they were shocked.

    Can we lobby Simon Harris on this one? Seeing how vocal he was in support of repeal and given health is his remit surely there is no better opportunity to enact change on this front.

    Any other suggestions on practical ways we can enact change?


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    #39
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    [QUOTE=JackTaylorFan;107692721

    Once puberty begins in earnest, trans kids should have the right to reversible blockers until the age of 16, during which at any point in treatment they can decide to desist the treatment if they wish, or alternatively begin full Hormone Replacement Therapy at 16. The undertaking of any such intervention is highly monitored and never taken lightly. The doctors, the patient and their parents/guardians will be well aware of the risks involved - far better than people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter.

    I'm not going to argue the merits of this further with anyone on this thread either - trans healthcare is not up for debate.[/QUOTE]

    Of course it's up for debate..

    My question to anyone who wants to engage in reasonable discourse.. Is trans healthcare any more lacking than normal healthcare in this country? Especially in terms of wait times for psychiatric services?
    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Nah... not really... unless you happen to be of the mindset that a Klan member holds an equal and fair opinion on a discussion concerning the validity of black people in America

    Sometimes there is only one side worth hearing. Stop being an apologist for bigots already.
    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Right now, it's a ****ing depressing world for the majority of transpeople, because of the bigotry you are defending. Funny that...

    Man, if you were trying to parody a ridiculous and frustrating left winger who refuses to listen to an ounce of sense, you couldn't have done a better job.

    The chap has a pride overlay on his boards avatar and you're calling him a bigot? Mad stuff


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    #40
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »

    Any other suggestions on practical ways we can enact change?

    - Get behind the This Is Me campaign
    https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsMeIreland/


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    #41
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    Of course it's up for debate..

    The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

    Also, does Boards allow discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.


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    #42
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    - Get behind the This Is Me campaign

    Thanks for the link and apologies for any crossed swords. It's easy to get snippy at someone especially when we both want the same thing


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    #43
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

    Also, does Boards sanction discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.

    Are you sure no is the answer? I'm sure there are forums discussing lots of different long term illnesses and the various medications available to patients.

    You can't deny the controversial nature of puberty blockers.

    To say
    people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter

    sounds a lot like Trump crying "fake news" at things that don't suit him.

    Moral grandstanding and decrying anyone who raises even the slightest of questions a bigot serves no purpose except to protect yourself from perceived threats, and it does not help your movement.


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    #44
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    Are you sure no is the answer? I'm sure there are forums discussing lots of different long term illnesses and the various medications available to patients.

    You can't deny the controversial nature of puberty blockers.

    To say



    sounds a lot like Trump crying "fake news" at things that don't suit him.

    Moral grandstanding and decrying anyone who raises even the slightest of questions a bigot serves no purpose except to protect yourself from perceived threats, and it does not help your movement.

    I tell you what, when you get back to me with the relevant doctorates in medicine, I'll entertain your concerns. Until then, nah... Thanks...


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    #45
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    Thanks for the link and apologies for any crossed swords. It's easy to get snippy at someone especially when we both want the same thing

    Cool. We don't on agree on certain things here obviously - but it's a good cause doing a lot of good work.


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    #46
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    I tell you what, when you get back to me with the relevant doctorates in medicine, I'll entertain your concerns. Until then, nah... Thanks...

    https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/

    https://world.wng.org/content/doctors_puberty_blockers_are_a_dangerous_experiment

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-change-drugs-that-delay-puberty-putting-healthy-children-in-danger-cnvzhrn6n

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101

    Not to mention the hundreds/ thousands of people who discuss growing up either gay or non gender conforming, who would have been thrown onto a puberty blocking / trans path in today's environment as a child, had the opportunity presented itself, and now are extremely grateful that they did not undergo surgery or anything similar, and are happy with their biological sex.


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    #47
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

    Also, does Boards allow discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.

    The standard of debate on it here is frankly shocking tbh.

    The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

    I appreciate how sensitive a topic this is and I hope you take this in the spirit is intended in.


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    #48
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    P_1 wrote: »
    The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

    A child can't legally make such a decision. Going into it "eyes wide open" is just not possible, there's a reason we have ages of consent and other things, they haven't reached mental maturity yet.


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    #49
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    The standard of debate on it here is frankly shocking tbh.

    The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

    I appreciate how sensitive a topic this is and I hope you take this in the spirit is intended in.

    As I said, I'm not participating in a debate on this issue (not on Boards). I will talk about bringing the HSE in-line with WPATH standards and how best to make that a reality, but I am not engaging in a discussion that will inevitably lead to attacks on doctors, parents and transpeople. And I would hope the Mods here see the distinction between these two things as well.


    If you want to see firsthand how trangender kids are doing on blockers here's an unbiased documentary from the one and only Louis Theroux - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69kbj7


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    #50
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    A child can't legally make such a decision. Going into it "eyes wide open" is just not possible, there's a reason we have ages of consent and other things, they haven't reached mental maturity yet.

    I will refer you to the same link I posted in response to P_1 - I will not directly engage with you and your dismissing of children's ability to understand themselves again.


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    #51
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    I will refer you to the same link I posted in response to P_1 - I will not directly engage with you and your dismissing of children's ability to understand themselves again.

    There's a shocker.

    Here's a question - do you believe there should be an age of consent?


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    #52
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    As I said, I'm not participating in a debate on this issue (not on Boards). I will talk about bringing the HSE in-line with WPATH standards and how best to make that a reality, but I am not engaging in a discussion that will inevitably lead to attacks on doctors, parents and transpeople. And I would hope the Mods here see the distinction between these two things as well.


    If you want to see firsthand how trangender kids are doing on blockers here's an unbiased documentary from the one and only Louis Theroux - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69kbj7

    That's fair enough and completely understandable given the standard of debate. I'm more than happy to take it to PM though just accept my apologies in advance for any delayed replies. Hopefully we can avoid having a row mind!


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    #53
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    A child can't legally make such a decision. Going into it "eyes wide open" is just not possible, there's a reason we have ages of consent and other things, they haven't reached mental maturity yet.

    Now theres far more nuance to that to be fair. With the right checks and balances in place it has the potential to save a lot of people a lot of unnecessary pain


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    #54
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    There's a shocker.

    Here's a question - do you believe there should be an age of consent?


    Lord, look where we are going already...


    Are you seriously trying to conflate the sexual abuse of a minor with healthcare for a minor?

    So done...


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    #55
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    P_1 wrote: »
    Now theres far more nuance to that to be fair. With the right checks and balances in place it has the potential to save a lot of people a lot of unnecessary pain

    How do we know what the right checks and balances are?

    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Lord, look where we are going already...


    Are you seriously trying to conflate the sexual abuse of a minor with healthcare for a minor?

    So done...

    No ? :confused:


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    #56
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »




    No ? :confused:

    Yeah... sure... :rolleyes:


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    #57
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    How do we know what the right checks and balances are?




    No ? :confused:

    That's the major question. It's such a cluster**** of a political football these days that finding an unbiased medical report or reccomemdation is difficult to find.

    Also just for clarity I presume you're referring to the medical age of consent as opposed to the sexual one here. Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth.


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    #58
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    P_1 wrote: »
    Also just for clarity I presume you're referring to the medical age of consent as opposed to the sexual one here. Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth.

    Nah, they were doing what everyone on boards who comes on here to attack us does... Dog whistling


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    #59
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Yeah... sure... :rolleyes:

    Keep fighting the good fight my dude.
    P_1 wrote: »
    That's the major question. It's such a cluster**** of a political football these days that finding an unbiased medical report or reccomemdation is difficult to find.

    Also just for clarity I presume you're referring to the medical age of consent as opposed to the sexual one here. Apologies if I'm putting words in your mouth.

    Absolutely true.

    Honestly both raise the same point - under a certain age society has agreed that children are not fully capable of fully considering the consequences of a situation and can not legally make a decision.


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    #60
    7aubzxk43m2sni
    Closed Accounts Posts: 636 ✭✭✭7aubzxk43m2sni


    JackTaylorFan wrote: »
    Nah, they were doing what everyone on boards who comes on here to attack us does... Dog whistling

    Yes, anyone who asks a question is attacking you :rolleyes:

    Talk about a victim complex


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    #61
    JackTaylorFan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭JackTaylorFan


    Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »
    Keep fighting the good fight my dude.


    And now, just blatant misgendering... this was always inevitable..


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