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Trans Pride

P_1

Anyone go? Any opinions? Thought the final rally in Fairview Park was very well put together with some fantastic speakers. Wasn't too pushed about the rally at the Custom House at the beginning, too many people pushing their on agendas and standing about in the rain probably didn't help. Great to see such a large crowd for it in spite of the weather.

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7aubzxk43m2sni

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I will refer you to the same link I posted in response to P_1 - I will not directly engage with you and your dismissing of children's ability to understand themselves again.

There's a shocker.

Here's a question - do you believe there should be an age of consent?

JackTaylorFan

Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »

A child can't legally make such a decision. Going into it "eyes wide open" is just not possible, there's a reason we have ages of consent and other things, they haven't reached mental maturity yet.

I will refer you to the same link I posted in response to P_1 - I will not directly engage with you and your dismissing of children's ability to understand themselves again.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

The standard of debate on it here is frankly shocking tbh.

The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

I appreciate how sensitive a topic this is and I hope you take this in the spirit is intended in.

As I said, I'm not participating in a debate on this issue (not on Boards). I will talk about bringing the HSE in-line with WPATH standards and how best to make that a reality, but I am not engaging in a discussion that will inevitably lead to attacks on doctors, parents and transpeople. And I would hope the Mods here see the distinction between these two things as well.

If you want to see firsthand how trangender kids are doing on blockers here's an unbiased documentary from the one and only Louis Theroux - https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x69kbj7

7aubzxk43m2sni

P_1 wrote: »

The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

A child can't legally make such a decision. Going into it "eyes wide open" is just not possible, there's a reason we have ages of consent and other things, they haven't reached mental maturity yet.

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

Also, does Boards allow discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.

The standard of debate on it here is frankly shocking tbh.

The only concern I'd have re puberty blockers is that (well at least from what I can tell) the current generation of people taking them are essentially guinea pigs. They might have no negative effects but we just do not know yet. Now if you go into that eyes wide open that's not an issue.

I appreciate how sensitive a topic this is and I hope you take this in the spirit is intended in.

7aubzxk43m2sni

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I tell you what, when you get back to me with the relevant doctorates in medicine, I'll entertain your concerns. Until then, nah... Thanks...

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/when-transgender-kids-transition-medical-risks-are-both-known-and-unknown/

https://world.wng.org/content/doctors_puberty_blockers_are_a_dangerous_experiment

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sex-change-drugs-that-delay-puberty-putting-healthy-children-in-danger-cnvzhrn6n

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2444866417301101

Not to mention the hundreds/ thousands of people who discuss growing up either gay or non gender conforming, who would have been thrown onto a puberty blocking / trans path in today's environment as a child, had the opportunity presented itself, and now are extremely grateful that they did not undergo surgery or anything similar, and are happy with their biological sex.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Thanks for the link and apologies for any crossed swords. It's easy to get snippy at someone especially when we both want the same thing

Cool. We don't on agree on certain things here obviously - but it's a good cause doing a lot of good work.

JackTaylorFan

Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »

Are you sure no is the answer? I'm sure there are forums discussing lots of different long term illnesses and the various medications available to patients.

You can't deny the controversial nature of puberty blockers.

To say

sounds a lot like Trump crying "fake news" at things that don't suit him.

Moral grandstanding and decrying anyone who raises even the slightest of questions a bigot serves no purpose except to protect yourself from perceived threats, and it does not help your movement.

I tell you what, when you get back to me with the relevant doctorates in medicine, I'll entertain your concerns. Until then, nah... Thanks...

7aubzxk43m2sni

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

Also, does Boards sanction discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.

Are you sure no is the answer? I'm sure there are forums discussing lots of different long term illnesses and the various medications available to patients.

You can't deny the controversial nature of puberty blockers.

To say

people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter

sounds a lot like Trump crying "fake news" at things that don't suit him.

Moral grandstanding and decrying anyone who raises even the slightest of questions a bigot serves no purpose except to protect yourself from perceived threats, and it does not help your movement.

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

- Get behind the This Is Me campaign

Thanks for the link and apologies for any crossed swords. It's easy to get snippy at someone especially when we both want the same thing

JackTaylorFan

Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »

Of course it's up for debate..

The debate people on Boards want is not about improving health care for trans people, it's about denying it altogether. That is the reality.

Also, does Boards allow discussion on best health care practices for cancer patients -i.e medication etc.? Let alone where doctors, relatives and patients are all being accused of child abuse? No, is the answer. But yet, that is the only kind of debate that happens on this site when it comes to trans healthcare.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Any other suggestions on practical ways we can enact change?

- Get behind the This Is Me campaign

https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsMeIreland/

7aubzxk43m2sni

[QUOTE=JackTaylorFan;107692721

Once puberty begins in earnest, trans kids should have the right to reversible blockers until the age of 16, during which at any point in treatment they can decide to desist the treatment if they wish, or alternatively begin full Hormone Replacement Therapy at 16. The undertaking of any such intervention is highly monitored and never taken lightly. The doctors, the patient and their parents/guardians will be well aware of the risks involved - far better than people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter.

I'm not going to argue the merits of this further with anyone on this thread either - trans healthcare is not up for debate.[/QUOTE]

Of course it's up for debate..

My question to anyone who wants to engage in reasonable discourse.. Is trans healthcare any more lacking than normal healthcare in this country? Especially in terms of wait times for psychiatric services?

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Nah... not really... unless you happen to be of the mindset that a Klan member holds an equal and fair opinion on a discussion concerning the validity of black people in America

Sometimes there is only one side worth hearing. Stop being an apologist for bigots already.

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Right now, it's a ****ing depressing world for the majority of transpeople, because of the bigotry you are defending. Funny that...

Man, if you were trying to parody a ridiculous and frustrating left winger who refuses to listen to an ounce of sense, you couldn't have done a better job.

The chap has a pride overlay on his boards avatar and you're calling him a bigot? Mad stuff

P_1

Ok so I think the awareness has been raised here. What are the next practical steps?

To me the key issue we can get a win on is increasing the number of consultants who can refer people for medical transition. I was telling my friends in Manchester we only have 2 and they were shocked.

Can we lobby Simon Harris on this one? Seeing how vocal he was in support of repeal and given health is his remit surely there is no better opportunity to enact change on this front.

Any other suggestions on practical ways we can enact change?

Annasopra

Mod

P1 - JTF take your issues with each other to pm and stop dragging the thread off topic

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Eh on the right? Cop on to yourself will you. I abhor them yet were stuck with them ruling over us no small part due the left being unable to organise a loss up in a brewery due to constant infighting and shouting down those who want the same thing but are more interested in finding practical ways to achieve them beyond making loud noises

If you want to have a discussion on the diverse political landscape this country has, by all means start a thread somewhere else on Boards.

This thread is about trans people and their rights, and you have positioned yourself on the wrong side of this discussion - i.e. the politically aligned right side (not to be confused with the correct side)

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Just so you know, I actually don't care what you, on the right, think. Only the people responsible for our health care. If you want to remain ignorant... cool.

Ta

Eh on the right? Cop on to yourself will you. I abhor them yet were stuck with them ruling over us no small part due the left being unable to organise a loss up in a brewery due to constant infighting and shouting down those who want the same thing but are more interested in finding practical ways to achieve them beyond making loud noises

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Its interactions like this that make me and many like me reluctant to properly engage with the left in this country.

Just so you know, I actually don't care what you, on the right, think. Only the people responsible for our health care. If you want to remain ignorant... cool.

Ta

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Are you done now?

I listen and talk to people who want to understand and be educated - I don't waste my time on trolls and bigots. There is a clear distinction and it's often one very easily made.

Thanks though.

As do I however I think we differ as to where the point is where someone can be educated. Feck even that's a bloody patronising term to use.

Also loosely agreeing with a point someone you may consider to be a bigot is not necessarily defending said bigot.

Its interactions like this that make me and many like me reluctant to properly engage with the left in this country.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Jesus H Christ I'm not defending bigotry. Look yes it is a bloody shítty world full of assholes, TERFs, SWERFs, biggots and whatever else is waiting to come crawling out of the woodwork. But you know what isn't going to bloody help that, misconstruing what someone who is on the same fúcking side as you is saying and taking offence when they try to introduce some nuance to the conversation. The world isn't black and white and if you try to view it in that way you're only going to hurt yourself.

Are you done now?

I listen and talk to people who want to understand and be educated - I don't waste my time on trolls and bigots. There is a clear distinction and it's often one very easily made.

Thanks though.

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Right now, it's a ****ing depressing world for the majority of transpeople, because of the bigotry you are defending. Funny that...

Jesus H Christ I'm not defending bigotry. Look yes it is a bloody shítty world full of assholes, TERFs, SWERFs, biggots and whatever else is waiting to come crawling out of the woodwork. But you know what isn't going to bloody help that, misconstruing what someone who is on the same fúcking side as you is saying and taking offence when they try to introduce some nuance to the conversation. The world isn't black and white and if you try to view it in that way you're only going to hurt yourself.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Well no but I do strongly believe that people should be given every opportunity to improve themselves and that shunning people or shouting bigot at them when they open their mouths is highly counterproductive. Look an asshole is always going to be an asshole, be they a liberal asshole or a conservative asshole, but believing that once an asshole, always an asshole is the way of life if a fúcking depressing way to view the world.

Right now, it's a ****ing depressing world for the majority of transpeople, because of the bigotry you are defending. Funny that...

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

Nah... not really... unless you happen to be of the mindset that a Klan member holds an equal and fair opinion on a discussion concerning the validity of black people in America

Sometimes there is only one side worth hearing. Stop being an apologist for bigots already.

Well no but I do strongly believe that people should be given every opportunity to improve themselves and that shunning people or shouting bigot at them when they open their mouths is highly counterproductive. Look an asshole is always going to be an asshole, be they a liberal asshole or a conservative asshole, but believing that once an asshole, always an asshole is the way of life if a fúcking depressing way to view the world.

Also chapeau on a magnificent strawman.

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Sometimes even the worst bigot in the world can come out with a point that makes you think.

Nah... not really... unless you happen to be of the mindset that a Klan member holds an equal and fair opinion on a discussion concerning the validity of black people in America

Sometimes there is only one side worth hearing. Stop being an apologist for bigots already.

P_1

JackTaylorFan wrote: »

I'm only going to wade in once here, on point 4 - which you are so in agreement with a very questionable Board's user. And that is to say this:

Nobody, at any point in their life, decides they "want" to be trans. But the question over a transperson's own bodily autonomy is very much like a case of underage abortion - this is their body and under proper medical supervision any trans person should have the right to decide what is happening regards their own body in - what is perceived by the individual experiencing it - the irreversible damage to their body from an unwanted, or the wrong, puberty. The fact is, this treatment at any early age is far less invasive than corrective procedures and surgeries later on in life - such as top surgery; facial hair removal etc. And even then there are some things that can never be corrected through surgeries - such as voice damage and skeletal structure. All of these permanent changes at this stage in development makes life a thousand times harder for a trans person in the long run. Blockers are by no means perfect, but they are, for trans people, a necessity.

Once puberty begins in earnest, trans kids should have the right to reversible blockers until the age of 16, during which at any point in treatment they can decide to desist the treatment if they wish, or alternatively begin full Hormone Replacement Therapy at 16. The undertaking of any such intervention is highly monitored and never taken lightly. The doctors, the patient and their parents/guardians will be well aware of the risks involved - far better than people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter.

I'm not going to argue the merits of this further with anyone on this thread either - trans healthcare is not up for debate.

Apologies I should have clarified.

"Under 16s legally are not recognised as intellutually able to make decisions." was what I agreed on, as currently that's how things are so to speak.

"It is impossible to be sure you want to be trans until you are intelltually mature." is well, horsesh*t.

The merits of puberty blockers is a controversial one but you're 100% correct, this isn't the place for that debate. Trans healthcare is a sad joke in this country and us miring down that rabbit hole is not going to to anything good to remedy that.

One final point and I mean this with no malice whatsoever, yes some people can have questionable opinions and can be potentially "blacklisted" as a result, that's a dangerous road to tread. Sometimes even the worst bigot in the world can come out with a point that makes you think. I think it's very important we don't lose sight of that. (Or that could just be me being some sort of a hippy dippy sh*te, you decide!)

JackTaylorFan

P_1 wrote: »

Ok to be fair points 2 and 4 I would agree with you on.

Point 1 yes it would be good to view data to confirm a sad suspicion I have.

Point 2 I would have a fundamental disagreement with you on.

I'm only going to wade in once here, on point 4 - which you are so in agreement with a very questionable Board's user. And that is to say this:

Nobody, at any point in their life, decides they "want" to be trans. But the question over a transperson's own bodily autonomy is very much like a case of underage abortion - this is their body and under proper medical supervision any trans person should have the right to decide what is happening regards their own body in - what is perceived by the individual experiencing it - the irreversible damage to their body from an unwanted, or the wrong, puberty. The fact is, this treatment at any early age is far less invasive than corrective procedures and surgeries later on in life - such as top surgery; facial hair removal etc. And even then there are some things that can never be corrected through surgeries - such as voice damage and skeletal structure. All of these permanent changes at this stage in development makes life a thousand times harder for a trans person in the long run. Blockers are by no means perfect, but they are, for trans people, a necessity.

Once puberty begins in earnest, trans kids should have the right to reversible blockers until the age of 16, during which at any point in treatment they can decide to desist the treatment if they wish, or alternatively begin full Hormone Replacement Therapy at 16. The undertaking of any such intervention is highly monitored and never taken lightly. The doctors, the patient and their parents/guardians will be well aware of the risks involved - far better than people on here searching for biased third party "research" on the matter.

I'm not going to argue the merits of this further with anyone on this thread either - trans healthcare is not up for debate.

P_1

An_Toirpin wrote: »

1. Maybe but it is suprising so I'd like to see the data.
2. A valid request.
3. Non binary is what sociologists call a 'gender', not a sex. If you legally recognised non binary every single vital document would still need to describe the sex next to non-binary in order to allow them to recieve normal services and care so not sure that this is a viable solution.
4. Under 16s legally are not recognised as intellutually able to make decisions. It is impossible to be sure you want to be trans until you are intelltually mature.

Ok to be fair points 2 and 4 I would agree with you on.

Point 1 yes it would be good to view data to confirm a sad suspicion I have.

Point 2 I would have a fundamental disagreement with you on.

Goodshape

An_Toirpin wrote: »

1. Maybe but it is suprising so I'd like to see the data.
2. A valid request.
3. Non binary is what sociologists call a 'gender', not a sex. If you legally recognised non binary every single vital document would still need to describe the sex next to non-binary in order to allow them to recieve normal services and care so not sure that this is a viable solution.
4. Under 16s legally are not recognised as intellutually able to make decisions. It is impossible to be sure you want to be trans until you are intelltually mature.

Cool – your opinions have been noted.

Thanks for contributing.

An_Toirpin

[font=poppins-semibold, poppins, sans-serif]Transgender people in Ireland suffer more hate crimes than anywhere else in Europe.[/font]

[font=poppins-semibold, poppins, sans-serif]Adequate Physical, Mental, and Sexual Healthcare for Trans or Intersex people in Ireland in almost non-existent. [/font]

[font=poppins-semibold, poppins, sans-serif]Non-Binary people are still not legally recognized[/font]

[font=poppins-semibold, poppins, sans-serif]Trans people under 16 are still not legally recognized as Trans.[/font]

Source: https://www.transpridedublin.org/about-trans-pride

1. Maybe but it is suprising so I'd like to see the data.
2. A valid request.
3. Non binary is what sociologists call a 'gender', not a sex. If you legally recognised non binary every single vital document would still need to describe the sex next to non-binary in order to allow them to recieve normal services and care so not sure that this is a viable solution.
4. Under 16s legally are not recognised as intellutually able to make decisions. It is impossible to be sure you want to be trans until you are intelltually mature.

robyntmorton

Jared Skinny Collar wrote: »

What are the main reasons for the trans community in Ireland to protest?

Oh I dunno, maybe things like healthcare, where for example:

I am on a waiting list for a psychiatrist (who can really only tell me that yes, I am who I say I am - and that as I have been living my life as a normal woman for some time now does fit an arbitrary set of requirements for treatment that are frankly ridiculous), with no appointment date give, or no indication of when I might be seen (most estimates put it at about 3 years)
That I have already been seen by a psychiatrist just to get to this point who said that I am a well adjusted woman with no mental health issues, but that I still need to jump through these hoops
That the HSE sent me a letter recently telling me I am on yet another waiting list, with again no indication of wait time, and asking "do I really want to be on this list?" with an astonishingly short reply window before getting removed from it.

This of course doesn't even mention life in general, where even though most people are perfectly fine with, or at least tolerable of in an apathetic way, of trans people, you still get the "You just want to get into women's toilets and changing rooms [true] because you're a pervert who wants to rape them" or "You were born a man, you'll always be a man, and you'll die a man".

Essentially, it's a protest saying that we are normal people, and want to go about our normal lives like all the other normal people, without having sh*t thrown at us just by virtue of being who we are. This is similar enough to gay pride of decades past which was a protest. Okay, Pride in general now is more of a celebration than a protest (though a protest element will always be there) but it doesn't mean that all groups in the LGBT+ umbrella are as far along as others, and sometimes you do need to stand by yourselves to make yourselves heard and get your point across.