So it looks like FF will back the Frances Black / SF bill to start boycotting Israeli products. The shows how FF will sell out anything or anyone if they think it is worth it to get back votes on the left / hard left. A worrying fact for gun owners in Ireland.

Steve wrote: »

I am genuinely curious as to why AGS even have access to such a weapon.

According to the internet, they are using an MP7A1.
Capable of 960 rpm / 16 rps and a capacity of 20, 30, or 40 rounds. This gives an effective mag life of 1.25 to 2.5 seconds on full auto.

How, in any scenario is this useful (except maybe in the hands of a criminal or terrorist)?

Yea it's great fun in Airsoft to have a MP "hedge trimmer" but the mag can hold several hundred rounds... Any firearms experience I've had WRT full auto weapons is that the only shot that counts is the first one, the rest are indiscriminate. That was from friends I went to ranges with in the US who had either military or police training.

You don't have to empty a magazine, burst fire is available too. You could also keep it on semi automatic.

What else would you suggest they use instead?

Steve wrote: »

A weapon limited to semi automatic.

My question was, why the need for a fully automatic weapon and what possible advantage would this give? What situation would it ever pay them to use it in?

I'm sure you have done way more CQB in airsoft than I have and know that the ability to blind fire an automatic gun around a corner of a building will result in more kills but in real life and where law enforcement is concerned, that is not possible.

Buddy airsoft really?... jesus christ. Adrenaline is a mighty drug(also someone could be on actual drugs like PCP) so it often takes more than one round to actually stop something or someone, and also i dont think mp7s come in semi auto only:pac:

[

QUOTE=o1s1n;107513008]You don't have to empty a magazine, burst fire is available too. You could also keep it on semi-automatic.
What else would you suggest they use instead?

You are dealing with two different doctrines of firearms usage. Military and police.
the military is designed for mass production, expend ammo,a lot of ammo, at a target,or group of targets in a trench,or enclosed area. You don't need a superior target rifle, when you have yourself,a squad,a designated marksman,a light support machine gunner, a "door kicker" CQB guy who carries a shotgun as well as breaching tools, and a radioman to call in artillery if you cant take or hold a position. Not to mind,you are expecting to have people being killed.A total opposite to any police operation. Look at the way the AK is laid out on the fire selector. Safe, FULL auto,Semi. The reason is simple. Its a doctrine of using full auto to storm positions, and then use semi to finish off any other survivors.

Police work OTOH is a whole different kettle of fish.The first edict of it is to save lives and not shoot at all,if at all possible.If say it is a hostage situation, you have it contained and cordoned off. Your snipers can pick their locations, have bags of time to set up and range estimate and do all the rest behind their super accurate and heavy rifles that are capable of ultra sub-MOA cold bore shots at a given distance. Compare a police sniper rifle to a military sniper rifle and you will see what I mean, two different doctrines and environments for a gun to be used in.
Its why the Germans developed the HK PSG1,a super accurate SA police rifle after Munich, where they discovered that surplus M1carbines with 4power scopes were not good police sniper weapons at Furstenfeldbruck airfield when the Black September lit up the Israeli hostages.But the PSG1 is way too heavy for a military sniper.At almost 12lbs you would be hard pushed to do a Gunny Hathcock 5day crawl to target with that lump.

So translating all of this to what we have here.A sub gun is by its nature not accurate,as most inc the AGS UZI are open bolt design. While simple does not lend to accuracy irrespective on semi or full.HK with their delayed roller back does give you better accuracy in their personal defence weapon which is what the 7 is.

[There is a difference now between PDW and SMG, usually more now with caliber rather than design and usage.A PDW is more used by military personnel who don't need a full assault rifle all the time.IE tank crews, radiomen, cooks, REMF's:) etc, and ignoring the logistics of supplying two different calibre ammo... But again .how accurate can you be resting your cheek on a wire strut? If you are going to be doing headshots from 10 to 100 meters over iron sights off a wire frame stock and can assure 100% hits. I doff my cap to you Sir.
Next problem, human reaction under stress fire. There is plenty of evidence of US police officers literally emptying their service pistols into a victim, reloading, and shooting another mag into the corpse. Their after action reports make interesting reading and even under questioning a variation of this is"I thought I had only fired 4or 5shots and didn't even realise I had reloaded"
IOW in the time when the bullets are flying, people can go into shutdown mode and go to instinct and training takes over.So how easy could it be for someone to hit the full switch and not realise it?

Finally, our policing using firearms is totally different to the rest of the worlds armed police.An incident occurs with armed police, the first officer on the scene's job is to access and if possible contain the situation while radio in for backup, guaranteeing that more armed help is on the way within minutes.
Here our unarmed police have to radio in for armed support,who might be nowhere near,and the situation could have changed dramatically in minutes. Ergo, having full auto won't contain the situation much better,and going by incidents like Athy and Garde Effie getting shot by friendly fire, it sounds like the last thing you want in a situation involving civilians.

Ultimately, who is responsible for someone using a full auto weapon and the shots go and hit some innocent party. We are responsible every time we pull the trigger on single shot.I'd hate to be the person in the witness box or the chief commissioner or the justice minister explaining why my burst of 9mm managed to miss my target,but riddled Mrs Murphy's kitchen window, her dog and the late Mr Murphy by mistake.

So what do we need to arm our AGS properly?I would say a short barrelled carbine in semi-auto with 308 and the proper ammo[Black tip armour piercing] if facing barricaded or Kevlar, and literally HUNTING ammo hollow point boat tail for nigh on one shot ending of situations. Ironically, police forces CAN use HP ammo as the Hauge and Geneva conventions only refer to military prohibitions on its use.
In fact, HK made a perfectly good rifle for this the HK SLB 2000.30.06. It's accurate for police work, detachable box mag, a calibre that has plenty of AP and frangible bullets to prevent over penetration.

Steve wrote: »

From the wiki link I provided, those with access to the machine pistol in question are:

Garda; Special Detective Unit, Emergency Response Unit, Regional Support Unit, National Bureau of Criminal Investigation

I'm simply asking if anyone can provide a scenario where the use of a fully automatic weapon could be justified.

Better to have and not need, than need and not have

Why do Gardai have full auto body armour shredders ? There's a simple answer to that question. Because the scum have full auto weapons and body armour and talking doesn't always work with them. In an armed confrontation looking at it is far better than looking for it.

Does anyone recollect the incident in Ballymun a few months ago where Gardai were about to enter a drug dealers house ? They were fired upon before they could even enter resulting in fortunately fairly minor injuries to Gardai. That's why they need this type of tools. In a scenario like that there's quite a few jurisdictions where the response would have been to chuck in a few grenades and not of the smoke or flashbang variety.

The good guys will always be at a disadvantage to the bad guys.
There are a specific set of rules governing the use of force one can level at an individual and the use of force escalates in accordance to the threat level to either your self or an individual.
There are very real and conceivable scenarios where the use of deadly force would be your first and imeadiate course of action but if your not justified, and 'justification' is a deciding factor in the use and degree of force you can bet your arse that no uniform or badge will save you from the high jump.

So no, clearing a building of bad guys with grenades is not an option for many day to day armed confrontations encountered by the the Gaurds but the use of warning shots and containing shots is approved for Irish troops when working in aid to civil power as a lesser degree of force. Whether the armed units of the guards can do the same I don't know.

cookimonster wrote: »

but the use of warning shots and containing shots is approved for Irish troops when working in aid to civil power as a lesser degree of force. Whether the armed units of the guards can do the same I don't know.

Warning and containing shots...Hmmm,I reckon a good defence lawyer could seriously make a meal of such actions by either military or police or civillian.. Where did that warning shot bullet go for once?If you are firing warning shots,your life cant be in that much of a danger then can it? So why fire,and you are clearly misjudging the situation? That kind of training/ thinking needs to go out the door pronto. As there is less lethal options available and you can escalate or de-escalate the force required these days.Tazers,Mace,pepperball,riot ammo ,all useable before leathl force needs to be applied.