Off Topic Chat. (MOD NOTE post# 3949 and post#5279)

Grizzly 45

ask also this question..If in the USA , where t it is almost expected as an LE officer you will get into a shootout at least once in your career,and there are literally millions of more guns than here, and more nutters willing to use them too.
Why do US police depts not issue their beat officers with FA firearms? The few that are, are the SWAT units or the like, and then only for specific tasks.?IE dynamic entry or "dook kicker" teams. etc.

cookimonster

Ahh there is the issue or lack if it so to speak.... the use of non lethal deterrent in the past was limited to weight in numbers, physical restraint, use of none lethal force ie the butt of a rifle or baton (If issued), CS gas, Water Cannon or baton rounds. All usually not available to troops while on routine ACP duties.

But as I've said the use of force, including the firing of warning shots or containing shots, is in response to the threat level. So I put it to you that if there are no non leathal control methods to hand and a situation warrants the use of warning or containing shots then this is a better scenario then the shooting an individual even with so called low shots fired to disable.

Thanks for the info on the cash in transit raid, I must do a bit of digging. But as you rightly pointed out the preference of both para military and criminal organisations would be for soft targets ie targets not protected by substantialy armed forces.

By the way I never held any weight in the 'no hostile action against Republic forces' we may not have been legitimate targets but if we were in the way that would change very quickly.

cookimonster

In relation to US LE officers, they have many, many different agencies at play there and they have their own historic f#ck ups were they were out gunned / tacticaly menovered.

Today's US agencies that can be called upon are a different kettle of fish then those of the past decades. It took the Americans a long, long time to realise the threat of home grown terrorism from with in thier own.

Today's escalation of violence and terror at the hands of Irish criminals have replaced terrorism as the number one very real threat posed to the state. So yes it could be a hangover from the troubles or a very plausible justification.

cookimonster

Grizz, have you a link or ref to the hold up of the CIT while under guard by the Irish Army. I'm usually good at digging something up from the net but I keep drawing a blank.. the more recent hold ups are clogging up my search.

German pointer

It was the Barna Gap robbery in Co Limerick 1978 I think . They got close to half a Mil don't remember them disarming the troops but they did use diversion signs.
Snap shot from the book Deadly Divisions

cookimonster

German Pointer, thanks for that.

https://books.google.ie/books?id=hseNDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT108&lpg=PT108&dq=Barna+Gap+robbery+in+Co+Limerick%C2%A0&source=bl&ots=jwOieHVU6k&sig=xVGlkGJzLJ3_6pVIoB-bZJBq1Gk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjkyLi82p_cAhWKJcAKHV01AZUQ6AEwBHoECAMQAQ.
This is a squinty reference to it. It outlines the plan and circumstances around it.
I think the historic reference to the raid and the Irish Army was in fact it spurred the then government to assign military escorts to CIT along side the GS in order to prevent further theft.

The below is taken from Dail Questions ...

Willie O'Dea. Thursday, 21 April 2005
'The initiative whereby the Garda Sh, subsequently with back-up from the Army, began to escort these cash transit operations commenced in 1978 as a result of a spectacular robbery in my adjoining constituency in west Limerick, at Barna Gap where a large amount of cash was seized. There was paramilitary involvement in that robbery and it was considered at the time that the State had an interest in not letting large consignments of cash fall into the hands of paramilitaries or other criminal elements. Obviously the paramilitary threat has receded somewhat but there is ample evidence that the people involved in cash transit robberies at present are highly organised criminal gangs who are looking for money to invest, largely in the drug trade'.


https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2005-04-21.252.0

cookimonster

German pointer wrote: »

It was the Barna Gap robbery in Co Limerick 1978 I think . They got close to half a Mil don't remember them disarming the troops but they did use diversion signs.
Snap shot from the book Deadly Divisions

....
Your quicker than me, thanks

gunny123

The army still do be in and out of the central bank mint in sandyford. I was looking at their very swanky new 4x4's recently. All carrying their augs.
I don't think anything was ever attempted robbery wise there, probably too tough a nut to crack.

gunny123

The army still do be in and out of the central bank mint in sandyford. I was looking at their very swanky new 4x4's recently. All carrying their augs.
I don't think anything was ever attempted robbery wise there, probably too tough a nut to crack.

Grizzly 45

Ok so we found the reference to the signpost raid in Barna gap.

Ahh there is the issue or lack if it so to speak.... the use of non lethal deterrent in the past was limited to weight in numbers, physical restraint, use of none lethal force ie the butt of a rifle or baton (If issued), CS gas, Water Cannon or baton rounds. All usually not available to troops while on routine ACP duties.

Two, well three different missions there. Are you CIT, riot control aiding AGS or dealing with an armed terrorist/criminal situation? different equipment and lethal responses required or allowed. And again is it smart to use military personnel in a police action, as that can go very wrong, very quickly as we have seen here in Bloody Sunday?

But as I've said the use of force, including the firing of warning shots or containing shots, is in response to the threat level. So I put it to you that if there are no non leathal control methods to hand and a situation warrants the use of warning or containing shots then this is a better scenario then the shooting an individual even with so called low shots fired to disable

.[/QUOTE]
gain,depending on your mission.and again I refer to bloody Sunday.Using troops and live ammo in a civillian situation is just asking for trouble.

cookimonster

In all cases - CIT, Riot Control situations, Check Points, you are in fact aiding the AGS, but not in their job. This is different to what was seen in Northen Ireland, a military policing action. At times certain military duties will bring you in contact with public and the guards are then there to assist you, such as EOD teams, Specilist Search Teams.

In relation to the AGS and aid to civil power your job is to protect the guards while they do their job. Your orders would still cover the various degrees of force open to you to carry out your duty. Obviously they start with the least harmful and make their way up to deadly force and equally as obvious you dismiss the the parts that do not pertain to that operational situation. So hypotheticaly if you are to protect a check point and the troops where armed with service rifle only well then use of force would include restraint by weight of numbers, striking with the butt of the weapon, warning shots, containing shots, wounding shots and deadly force. All the others- baton, gas, baton rounds, Water Cannon etc are redundant as they are not to hand.

We're kind of covering history now as now adays military and Garda operations involving armed troops are nearly exclusive to large scale operations. The further devopment of the ERU and armed response units etc have more or less done away with the need for armed soldiers watching over Garda check points etc. I work and live in areas that are very active in gang land ongoings and all armed check points are completely Garda operated where as before the Army would have supported them as seen with the Ring of Steal and BSE operations to name a few.
There are operational restraints when the Army support the Gaurds and I would suspect that it suits the Gaurds to be autonomous when it comes to having armed units present. Outside of the plain clothed armed Garda the new units are capable of deploying both leathal and non leathal methods of control that will keep both themselves and innocent members of the public safe. A lad off his meds swinging a Hurley stick around the street can expect and rightly so, a face full of mace or a bean bag to the chest, but if you decide it's wise to rob a bank or what not with a gun then prepare for the worst.

meathstevie

cookimonster wrote: »

The good guys will always be at a disadvantage to the bad guys.
There are a specific set of rules governing the use of force one can level at an individual and the use of force escalates in accordance to the threat level to either your self or an individual.
There are very real and conceivable scenarios where the use of deadly force would be your first and imeadiate course of action but if your not justified, and 'justification' is a deciding factor in the use and degree of force you can bet your arse that no uniform or badge will save you from the high jump.

So no, clearing a building of bad guys with grenades is not an option for many day to day armed confrontations encountered by the the Gaurds but the use of warning shots and containing shots is approved for Irish troops when working in aid to civil power as a lesser degree of force. Whether the armed units of the guards can do the same I don't know.

That's why I specifically mentioned other jurisdictions in my post. Ireland, the UK and Europe in general is quite careful when it comes to using lethal force in law enforcement and links it to very strong scrutiny which is a good thing. That still doesn't diminish the necessity for law enforcement to have weaponry and tactics capable of outperforming the criminal arsenal.

Grizzly 45

How many times is tho MS there a "Heat" movie like shootout with criminals anywhere in the EU or even the US? The last full auto usage by criminals was the Hollywood bank robbery in the 1990s and before that the Orlando shootout in the 1980s.

Nor does it go like Hollywood portrays it. As the amount of ammo expended is going to mean the bad guys are going to be running dry pretty quickly which is what happened in the Hollywood bank raid,the only reason they didn't go down quickly is they were wearing head to toe kevlar.

Nor would I want to be the person in charge of a police operation where full auto fire was authorised explaining that to. [My direct superiors, the mayor and council [if in the US]. The internal affairs of the police dept,
Every human rights and do-gooder group, out to nail "da pigs fo usin full auto on some poor civilians" and the media.
Then the Mount Everest of paperwork accounting for where EVERY single round fired by both sides went, what it hit and why it was fired?And explaining that in testimony and court?

And the then following lawsuits for injury, death or damage on your dept, city or whatever for missed rounds.
Had the Heat film shootout occurred in real life,I reckon Al Pachino's character would just about now be finishing the paperwork and internal affairs investigations.:)
The simple fact is, there is little or no reason for LE to be using full auto Submachine guns, which are a CQB battlefield weapon in an urban environment, where a controlled semi-auto fire will do the job just as well if needed. Remember the bad guys can only carry so much ammo and don't have a massive back up organisation coming in behind them to help out, and will have a specialised unit with full auto fire if absolutely needed on tap.But even ask a SWAT unit, how often have they even needed to use full auto in any situation??

cookimonster

Is it a standard rule of thumb that most European armed response units are actually issued with automatic weapons or are we the only ones?

To partly answer my own question, so far I've come up with this:

Great Britain : semi auto only
France: fully auto
Germany : fully auto

If it's general practice then it must be for a reason, if not then yes it's a hang over from the past, an unjustified evolution from the Thompson thru the Uzi, HK and so forth.

Grizzly 45

ASFIK, all EU police, bar for some reason UK police,[excluding the UK Atomic energy Police] carry full auto stuff.

It goes back apparently to 19th century Prussia. Where you couldn't even be a beat copper until you had attained the rank of "Unteroffizer" [Sgt to you and me] in his Imperial majesty's army. As Prussia and eventually all of Germany became a militarised state, the equipment of both imperial police and military was interchangeable right down to the uniforms!

100 years ago the first SMGs also started to appear in the trenches and after armistice 1918, they started to show up, along with crew-served machine guns... in the various militias, police forces and revolutionary groups about in Weimar Germany.
Then in the 3rd Reich and the remilitarisation of the police, as well as the secret state police [Gestapo], sub guns show up again as issued equipment.
No one ever said the German police were inefficient or ineffective, so maybe it's just something we have EU wide just kept aping as it was always so and ever thus, without going into the question of was it needed?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

ASFIK, all EU police, bar for some reason UK police,[excluding the UK Atomic energy Police] carry full auto stuff.

It goes back apparently to 19th century Prussia. Where you couldn't even be a beat copper until you had attained the rank of "Unteroffizer" [Sgt to you and me] in his Imperial majesty's army. As Prussia and eventually all of Germany became a militarised state, the equipment of both imperial police and military was interchangeable right down to the uniforms!

100 years ago the first SMGs also started to appear in the trenches and after armistice 1918, they started to show up, along with crew-served machine guns... in the various militias, police forces and revolutionary groups about in Weimar Germany.
Then in the 3rd Reich and the remilitarisation of the police, as well as the secret state police [Gestapo], sub guns show up again as issued equipment.
No one ever said the German police were inefficient or ineffective, so maybe it's just something we have EU wide just kept aping as it was always so and ever thus, without going into the question of was it needed?

I thought that wouldve been just because they were available? Maybe the full auto carry comes from hand me downs from militaries, after ww2 there were huge amounts of surplus and police took advantage of all the equipment they could get?

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok so we found the reference to the signpost raid in Barna gap.

Ahh there is the issue or lack if it so to speak.... the use of non lethal deterrent in the past was limited to weight in numbers, physical restraint, use of none lethal force ie the butt of a rifle or baton (If issued), CS gas, Water Cannon or baton rounds. All usually not available to troops while on routine ACP duties.

Two, well three different missions there. Are you CIT, riot control aiding AGS or dealing with an armed terrorist/criminal situation? different equipment and lethal responses required or allowed. And again is it smart to use military personnel in a police action, as that can go very wrong, very quickly as we have seen here in Bloody Sunday?

But as I've said the use of force, including the firing of warning shots or containing shots, is in response to the threat level. So I put it to you that if there are no non leathal control methods to hand and a situation warrants the use of warning or containing shots then this is a better scenario then the shooting an individual even with so called low shots fired to disable

.

gain,depending on your mission.and again I refer to bloody Sunday.Using troops and live ammo in a civillian situation is just asking for trouble.[/quote]

With the appropriate training military personnel can very adequately be used in what would essentially be policing type tasks. Ireland runs an internationally renowned military training establishment in the Curragh for among other things preparing troops for exactly that.

Bloody Sunday is a different kettle of fish alright. The type of training Cold War era para's received would not have been very suitable to use them to contain civil disorder to say the least. When you throw personal convictions and motivations into the mix as well the result is what happened on Bloody Sunday.

Savage93

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The INLA in Kerry did one back in the 1970s early 1980s and TBH it was a play straight out of a Hollywood production. They used diversion signs and diverted the CIT convoy into a narrow boreen where the troops couldn't deploy from the vehicles and were trapped inside. The INLA relived them of arms and the CIT of money.:)

Also note that the PIRA "Green book" specifically forbade hostile actions against the forces of the Republic, and also it is an axion of guerilla warfare, not to waste manpower against superior forces. Why bother with attacking an armed CIT when you can blag four of the local post offices on dole day?:)

TBH,it is a hangover from what EU police forces did and what we had left in the armouries post civil war.Our SB men had Thompsons as std issue one time too.

Sorry Grizz your facts are wrong on this one.
1. not Kerry but Barna , Co. Limerick
2. Not INLA but local Provos who did indeed switch to banks and post office robberies as a result of army escorts on large CIT deliveries. Indeed some of these were involved in the Adare murder of Gerry Mc Cabe almost 20 years after.
3.No army presence at robbery, Army escorts only commenced after, and as a recspnse to, this robbery.
4. No troops were disarmed by these thugs are there were no troops present at this robbery ( only unarmed Gardai but I stand to be corrected on this.)

BattleCorp

Steve wrote: »

Jaysus, I want one now.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Jaysus, I want one now.

There you go!IF you can get a full auto Class3 in the US
https://www.armsunlimited.com/Heckler-Koch-MP7A1-PDW-4-6x30mm-Submachine-Gun-p/hk-mp7a1.htm

And this is why not it wont be built in semi auto ...Apart from HK's customer service motto of "Fk you, we hate our customers!":P
https://www.guns.com/2012/09/17/hak-semi-automatic-mp7-market-viability

Grizzly 45

Savage93 wrote: »

Sorry Grizz your facts are wrong on this one.
1. not Kerry but Barna , Co. Limerick
2. Not INLA but local Provos who did indeed switch to banks and post office robberies as a result of army escorts on large CIT deliveries. Indeed some of these were involved in the Adare murder of Gerry Mc Cabe almost 20 years after.
3.No army presence at robbery, Army escorts only commenced after, and as a recspnse to, this robbery.
4. No troops were disarmed by these thugs are there were no troops present at this robbery ( only unarmed Gardai but I stand to be corrected on this.)

Absolutely correct, :)was quoting from memor y,although I do recall the INLA claiming it as one of theirs?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

There you go!IF you can get a full auto Class3 in the US
https://www.armsunlimited.com/Heckler-Koch-MP7A1-PDW-4-6x30mm-Submachine-Gun-p/hk-mp7a1.htm

And this is why not it wont be built in semi auto ...Apart from HK's customer service motto of "Fk you, we hate our customers!":P
https://www.guns.com/2012/09/17/hak-semi-automatic-mp7-market-viability

Do H&K really hate their civvi customers or is that just an internet myth?:D
In the US their selling the MR556,MR762 and the USC(civvi ump) so maybe their just not bothered with the mp7 because of the issues raised in your link?

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

I thought that would've been just because they were available? Maybe the full auto carry comes from hand me downs from militaries, after ww2 there were huge amounts of surplus and police took advantage of all the equipment they could get?

Proably,but the idea of a militarised police force is definitely a Prussian concept. Post Armstice 1918 Germany was in chaos,you had returning troops coming home in a fully intact and functional,albeit very battle weary army. The Kaiser had run off to Holland,Berlin and Munich were declaring as Soviets,starvation,and other paramilitary groups abounded.And that's not even dealing with the international situation.So yes there was plenty of everything available to just about everyone of any political hue.
Post ww2 certainly too. German police in Bavaria were issued M1 carbines and were in some cases still using un issued MP44s.

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Do H&K really hate their civvi customers or is that just an internet myth?:D

Jury is out on that one,although they do seem to have a "German" attitude to customer service alright.:) Maybe that grinds American gears?:D

ED E

While I totally agree that you don't want AGS spraying 556 into Henry Street what alternative are you suggesting? Detectives etc carry sidearms but specialist units everywhere use SMGs (or BTP who have feckin armalites for tube stations.....). When you're looking at PDWs its MP7, MP9, P90 or machine pistols hoses like an M11/Uzi. Should we spend extra to have customized units with the FA feature removed? Maybe.

AFAIK we trust the PDF with AUGs with two part triggers which have a far larger risk of accidental auto, if they can manage that then you would hope AGS can train to push the selector to the first stop (the click is significant, you'll know when its changed position to single fire).

Grizzly 45

It's a difficult one alright EDE. Because AGS as such is still an "unarmed police force" insomuch as the first on the scene police officers are going to be unarmed, and unfortunately not going to be able to do much to contain an armed situation. They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.be it Europe or the US at least your officers are armed and can start responding there and then and have either a patrol carbine or riot gun. Although I don't know even in the EU what the protocol for being able to use the SMG straight away?I'd assume you need someone higher up to authorise it on FA??

Maybe something along the line of a compact Browning or Remington-style deer rifle type design? Decent calibre, capable of AP rounds, semi-auto, pull the trigger fast enough you can put enough rounds downrange if needed.Hi cap mag, and doesn't look military, black gun scary, in these PC snowflake times?

Uinseann_16

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It's a difficult one alright EDE. Because AGS as such is still an "unarmed police force" insomuch as the first on the scene police officers are going to be unarmed, and unfortunately not going to be able to do much to contain an armed situation. They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.be it Europe or the US at least your officers are armed and can start responding there and then and have either a patrol carbine or riot gun. Although I don't know even in the EU what the protocol for being able to use the SMG straight away?I'd assume you need someone higher up to authorise it on FA??

Maybe something along the line of a compact Browning or Remington-style deer rifle type design? Decent calibre, capable of AP rounds, semi-auto, pull the trigger fast enough you can put enough rounds downrange if needed.Hi cap mag, and doesn't look military, black gun scary, in these PC snowflake times?

Maybe Ruger mini-14s i think french police used them and so did the police in northern Ireland in the past. with a walnut wood stock they dont look too military like. Also theres no need for AP rounds when using a 5.56/.223 they will defeat iiia body armour with standard fmj rounds;).

ED E

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They have to wait for the ASU to arrive, whenever, depending on how close one is.

My understanding is they don't. The figure I've heard is 30%. You'll have a detective available within each division that'll be closer than the ASU if you're out in the sticks. One would hope that the majority of calls would be sufficiently controlled by two detectives with sidearms.

Grizzly 45

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Maybe Ruger mini-14s i think french police used them and so did the police in northern Ireland in the past. with a walnut wood stock they dont look too military like. Also there's no need for AP rounds when using a 5.56/.223 they will defeat iiia body armour with standard fmj rounds;).

The French make a copy of the Mini14 and the RUC version was I think the select fire version AC556?

Here would be my contender,with a solid butt folding stock.20 round mag. [Aimed shots count,not near misses with a SMG]slightly shorter barrel.Think that design would serve very well.

https://stateofguns.com/fnar-a-hunting-rifle-turned-badass-417/

Savage93

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The French make a copy of the Mini14 and the RUC version was I think the select fire version AC556?

Here would be my contender,with a solid butt folding stock.20 round mag. [Aimed shots count,not near misses with a SMG]slightly shorter barrel.Think that design would serve very well.

https://stateofguns.com/fnar-a-hunting-rifle-turned-badass-417/

The main plus for SMG PDW tyoes rather than rifles ( Gardai also use HK416 and Remington 700s) for easy inconspicuous carry rather than visible deterrent(ASU RSU) for plain clothes cops.