Ireland v Australia - 2nd test, how the expected starting XVs compare.

Peregrine · 17-06-2018 01:55PM

Anthracite wrote: »

Sigh. I think you've become entrenched in a rather silly position. I'll leave it there. Others can decide for themselves.

Here, you're the one who said 'third deliberate knock on' about five times. I'm not saying you're wrong but the least you could do is answer who, other than Timu, committed the other deliberate knock on or admit you made a mistake. Rather than throw your toys out of the pram.

17-06-2018 02:02PM

If Healy get's cited for that then every rugby match from now on is going to have upto 10 additional citing's each game if that precedent is followed.

Peregrine · 17-06-2018 02:02PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Best clear out in recent memory for me was O'Brien against France in 2015 6 nations. Took three lads off the ruck and sat on them.

Yeah_Right · 17-06-2018 02:07PM

shootermacg wrote: »

I think what is bothering people about the ref, is, there were 3 deliberate knock-ons by Australia (surely the last one needs a card to send a message regardless of perceived intent).

On top of this there was deliberate (cynical) infringements by Australia in their own 22, again enough of them to cause any ref to just card someone to send a message. How many off-sides on the 5m line before the ref starts handing out cards?

I know the Union need to blood new referees and I think it wasn't a terrible game, by the ref. He'll have to manage how his perceived decisions are interpreted by both teams.

The ref was a bit unlucky with timing, but the message he sent to Ireland was, any infringements will be dealt with severely, meanwhile the message he sent to Australia is anything goes.

So while there's no way he set out to be, and nobody is questioning the ref's integrity, what he ended up doing is the very definition of inconsistent refereeing.

Perception is a big thing. I think a lot of Irish fans are viewing it through green-tinted glasses. Understandably so. All fans do that. I'm trying to look at it more dispassionately. The repeated infringements on the line probably would have resulted in a yellow card but Ireland scored. Would have been happy if he'd still carded a player.

Also, I've only seen two deliberate knock ons by Aus.

I don't think he was inconsistent. Maybe not strict enough but not inconsistent. If McGrath had been carded for being offside or not rolling away, that would have been inconsistent.

Faugheen · 17-06-2018 02:14PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1008318590695628800?s=19

Notice how nothing is being said about that clearout when people bitched and whinged about the one on Conway a few weeks back.

Absolute animal, is our Tadhg.

Shefwedfan · 17-06-2018 02:40PM

umop episdn wrote: »

You're kidding? He changed direction to block him...I'd be surprised if he doesn't get a citing

Your having a laugh? If he gets cited for that you will seen 20-30 other players this week cited for the same thing....

Christy42 · 17-06-2018 02:43PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth. I very clearly didn't say or suggest that all penalties are yellow cards. In fact I have already stated that many instances only get a yellow card if it is for multiple offences. So I have already answered your question.

Now can we go back to discussing the incident properly or are you going to pretend I have made some unrelated ridiculous argument?

Foley knew full well hr was not going to catch that and that he needed to stop it.

Sorry. Didn't mean to upset you and I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I'm trying to understand your position. Do you believe that a deliberate knock on is meant to always result in a yellow card?

Because I don't. I explained how the deliberate knock ons were different and therefore resulted in different sanctions.

I think Foley thought he was going to get an intercept. The fact is neither of us know what he was thinking.

Foley did not go for the ball. If anyone thinks that then they must consider Foley an imbecile. You can't catch a ball going full pace shooting one hand at it without supporting with the rest of your body. He lashed at it to block it when he realised he was out of position. His body was not going towards it to secure the catch. His other hand likewise. He made no attempt to catch it.

Finally I also don't think a yellow was coming if Furlong had not scores. Unless I missed it I did not hear a warning from the ref. I heard one after Foley's knock on but that was a decent bit and a few penalties later. I reckon if Furlong had dropped it a warning was coming next (frustratingly).

I do think all deliberate knock ons should have a yellow card though I feel it should only be called a deliberate knock on if the ref feels it deliberate. If the ref feels like it was an attempt at a catch it should be a knock on.

PhlegmyMoses · 17-06-2018 03:13PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Foley did not go for the ball. If anyone thinks that then they must consider Foley an imbecile. You can't catch a ball going full pace shooting one hand at it without supporting with the rest of your body. He lashed at it to block it when he realised he was out of position. His body was not going towards it to secure the catch. His other hand likewise. He made no attempt to catch it.

Finally I also don't think a yellow was coming if Furlong had not scores. Unless I missed it I did not hear a warning from the ref. I heard one after Foley's knock on but that was a decent bit and a few penalties later. I reckon if Furlong had dropped it a warning was coming next (frustratingly).

I do think all deliberate knock ons should have a yellow card though I feel it should only be called a deliberate knock on if the ref feels it deliberate. If the ref feels like it was an attempt at a catch it should be a knock on.

He gave a warning before the Furlong try and they continued to infringe up until the try. He gave a second warning after Foley knocked on. Australia had 15 pens against and one yellow for an obvious piece of dangerous play to Ireland's 4 before McGrath got binned, making it 5 and 2 yellows (we ratched up the pens in the last 10). It was a crazily frustrating performance as Ireland were the better team by far and Australia were infringing because they were scrambling. It's up to the ref to help the dominant team there.

blackdog2 · 17-06-2018 04:46PM

Is there anything to be said for paddy wallace?

Yeah_Right · 17-06-2018 05:19PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Foley did not go for the ball. If anyone thinks that then they must consider Foley an imbecile. You can't catch a ball going full pace shooting one hand at it without supporting with the rest of your body. He lashed at it to block it when he realised he was out of position. His body was not going towards it to secure the catch. His other hand likewise. He made no attempt to catch it.

Finally I also don't think a yellow was coming if Furlong had not scores. Unless I missed it I did not hear a warning from the ref. I heard one after Foley's knock on but that was a decent bit and a few penalties later. I reckon if Furlong had dropped it a warning was coming next (frustratingly).

I do think all deliberate knock ons should have a yellow card though I feel it should only be called a deliberate knock on if the ref feels it deliberate. If the ref feels like it was an attempt at a catch it should be a knock on.

So your issue is with the laws. You want all deliberate knock ons to be yellow cards. At the moment there are two types of deliberate knock ons; intentionally slapping the ball down (McGrath and Hughes at the weekend) which are nearly always yellowcards, then there's sticking a hand out when they don't have a realistic chance of catching it (Foley and Timu) and those are sometimes a yellow card and sometimes not.

You can catch a ball with one hand while running at full pace. I've seen players do it. Watch 7s or Super Rugby. It happens a lot.

I think the ref would have given a card if Furlong hadn't scored. You disagree. We'll never know. But the ref did give Hooper a warning. Go back and watch it.

Christy42 · 17-06-2018 06:06PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So your issue is with the laws. You want all deliberate knock ons to be yellow cards. At the moment there are two types of deliberate knock ons; intentionally slapping the ball down (McGrath and Hughes at the weekend) which are nearly always yellowcards, then there's sticking a hand out when they don't have a realistic chance of catching it (Foley and Timu) and those are sometimes a yellow card and sometimes not.

You can catch a ball with one hand while running at full pace. I've seen players do it. Watch 7s or Super Rugby. It happens a lot.

I think the ref would have given a card if Furlong hadn't scored. You disagree. We'll never know. But the ref did give Hooper a warning. Go back and watch it.

My issue with the laws is separate. I mean why call it deliberate if it is not deliberate (using the English definition of intentional). I don't get what the odds of success should have to do with it. Either you went to catch it or you didn't, you should not have to work out the odds on the fly to avoid a penalty. Either you make a proper catching motion or you don't. However I still feel that Foley should get a yellow card under the current iteration. Making a catch attempt means more than sticking a hand up and hoping, it would involve supporting motions from the rest of the body.

I feel like we are not going to get anywhere here with our views on what Foley was trying to do (even without the repeated offenses from Australia which should have lead to a card in any case).

I would like to see those catches though as most I have seen one handed have the ball coming down in an arc in some way after a long pass or use the hand to cushion it back into the body and use that to complete the catch. If nothing else it would be a fun skill to watch!

I was wrong about the no warning so there was a decent chance a card was coming, I reckon I got distracted by Furlong's treatment.

Neil3030 · 17-06-2018 06:41PM

Deliberate knock need not be a yellow.

Deliberate knock after multiple infringements and a team warning probably should.

17-06-2018 07:29PM

I just spotted Earls tackles Ringrose in the final play of the game :pac:

fitz · 17-06-2018 08:01PM

I wish people would stop arguing about the Foley knock on in isolation. On it's own it's a 50:50 whether a ref gives a yellow.
There's no question based on the previous warning and penalty count, he should have gone to the bin.

shootermacg · 17-06-2018 08:53PM

fitz wrote: »

I wish people would stop arguing about the Foley knock on in isolation. On it's own it's a 50:50 whether a ref gives a yellow.
There's no question based on the previous warning and penalty count, he should have gone to the bin.

Lets just draw a line under it at this stage. I can't see anything being added to the discussion for the last few pages.

Synode · 17-06-2018 09:14PM

Anthracite wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS0A7iZT0KE

Been deleted. If anyone finds another let us know. I couldn't record it and want to watch it back again.

17-06-2018 10:08PM

You know, if Furlong gets that ball wide and we score in the corner from his clean break - I think that becomes a try of the year candidate. He picks a perfect line - a prop - picks a perfect line, then if you watch the reverse view he actually steps that tackle, it's beautiful. If he puts the ball clean into Earls's hands and we score it's going to be sensational.

18-06-2018 12:23AM

Sexton goes mad at Earls at the 13 minute mark. Anyone know why?

Shefwedfan · 18-06-2018 02:05AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sexton goes mad at Earls at the 13 minute mark. Anyone know why?

He is ginger

molloyjh · 18-06-2018 08:44AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sexton goes mad at Earls at the 13 minute mark. Anyone know why?

That was where we got the ball wide and Earls put the boot to it? I thought he was looking for Earls to keep it in hand and look for Sexton back on the inside, but my OH reckoned he was just giving out to Ealrs for not going longer on the kick. Would need to watch it back to see how the Aussie defence was lined up tbh.

molloyjh · 18-06-2018 08:46AM

Just gonna throw this into the mix....

How good was Larmour at some of the ancillary stuff on Saturday? His ruck work at times was very strong. The guy isn’t afraid to get stuck in to any job. He didn’t get much opportunity with ball in hand, but he still impressed with some of the other stuff he was doing.

Burkie1203 · 18-06-2018 09:16AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Just gonna throw this into the mix....

How good was Larmour at some of the ancillary stuff on Saturday? His ruck work at times was very strong. The guy isn’t afraid to get stuck in to any job. He didn’t get much opportunity with ball in hand, but he still impressed with some of the other stuff he was doing.

Lancaster i think gave a soundbite a while back saying he has the flashy bits to his game but he has the appetite to learn and improve every day no matter how mundane the task is.

errlloyd · 18-06-2018 10:03AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Just gonna throw this into the mix....

How good was Larmour at some of the ancillary stuff on Saturday? His ruck work at times was very strong. The guy isn’t afraid to get stuck in to any job. He didn’t get much opportunity with ball in hand, but he still impressed with some of the other stuff he was doing.

He's managed to rip the ball in contact a few times now when he has no right to. What's that all about?

Sangre · 18-06-2018 10:11AM

errlloyd wrote: »

He's managed to rip the ball in contact a few times now when he has no right to. What's that all about?

Have you seen his arms? The guy is a barrel..

18-06-2018 10:53AM

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/wallabies-consider-lodging-complaint-over-joe-schmidts-tactics-37021615.html

Pretty sour grapes here, the Aussies were no strangers to running blocking lines in the first test.

irishbucsfan · 18-06-2018 10:56AM

I mean I read that article... and I know the headline says they're going to "lodge a complaint"...

But all Larkham talks about is discussing it with the referee? And teams discussing interpretations, etc. is extremely common practice and happens before every game and is fairly informal? As opposed to lodging a complaint with World Rugby which is surely an official process?

I personally get the impression that the Indo sub-editor is playing silly buggers with that one.

molloyjh · 18-06-2018 10:59AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I mean I read that article... and I know the headline says they're going to "lodge a complaint"...

But all Larkham talks about is discussing it with the referee? And teams discussing interpretations, etc. is extremely common practice and happens before every game and is fairly informal? As opposed to lodging a complaint with World Rugby which is surely an official process?

I personally get the impression that the Indo sub-editor is playing silly buggers with that one.

I don't think Larkham said anything there that Joe hadn't been saying the previous week either? Which is the most amusing part for me.

clsmooth · 18-06-2018 11:13AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Just gonna throw this into the mix....

How good was Larmour at some of the ancillary stuff on Saturday? His ruck work at times was very strong. The guy isn’t afraid to get stuck in to any job. He didn’t get much opportunity with ball in hand, but he still impressed with some of the other stuff he was doing.

Whats impressive is that he's now getting some serious minutes under his belt against the likes of England and Australia and hasn't looked out of place. He's taken to international rugby like a duck to water.

18-06-2018 11:24AM

molloyjh wrote: »

That was where we got the ball wide and Earls put the boot to it? I thought he was looking for Earls to keep it in hand and look for Sexton back on the inside, but my OH reckoned he was just giving out to Ealrs for not going longer on the kick. Would need to watch it back to see how the Aussie defence was lined up tbh.

I think it's because Earls didn't kick it long enough. There was no room for Earls to keep running

18-06-2018 11:33AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it's because Earls didn't kick it long enough. There was no room for Earls to keep running

It's been said plenty of times that Sexton in the team is like having Schmidt on the pitch. If you watch him he is barking constantly at those around him.

I liked his interview before the second test though - said that James Ryan led the team from the front and everyone else needs to get up to that level. It was Schmidtesques in the way he deflects praise to lads coming through or within the wider squad.

Someone on off the ball a few weeks ago called Sexton Schmidt's 'spirit animal'. Thought that was hilariously apt myself!

Ireland v Australia - 2nd test, how the expected starting XVs compare.

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