Ireland v Australia - 2nd test, how the expected starting XVs compare.

Clegg

There was some confusion over who was awarded motm and it has since been confirmed it was Furlong. And quite honestly I don't think it could've been anyone else. PoM was great but Furlong was exceptional. The scrum was rock solid and he made so many excellent carries, making so many metres and committing two and three defenders to tackling him each time. He was sensational.

clsmooth

swiwi_ wrote: »

So you won...but the thread is still littered with complaints about the ref Are there any refs at all that Irish fans can endure??

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

Billy86

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yes

If unsure listen to explanation from the ref when he rightly gave McGrath a yellow card for doing it

In which case (if it is an automatic yellow) Williams knowingly broke the rules by not doing the same for the Aussies. Refs can get calls wrong of course, but refs should not be knowingly breaking the rules of the sport which is what happened here in that case.

If it is a black-and-white rule, then he may as well have been disallowing perfectly good kicks and tries for no other reason than not wanting the game to get too lopsided.

Shefwedfan

clsmooth wrote: »

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

To be fair in most of the 6 nations match's I didn't see anything been mentioned about ref

Especially after the Wales match I only seen good reviews....and we normally hate Barnes :p

So far the Southern Hemp ref's have been shocking poor. Not just in the Ireland match but in other match's. I am mostly annoyed because it is ruining good match's....it would have been a lot better game today if the ref was consistent. How much time was wasted with Ireland attacking and Wallabies constantly fouling. Penatly...start again....Penalty....start again....Penalty.....

In australia they are trying to get people interested in going/watching rugby again. They won't with that sort of stuff going on.

pickarooney

The only thing that I have a chronic issue with, as far as reffing goes, and it's more to do with the directives from on high is that there is a blatant inconsistency with regards to 'intent' and 'outcome'. Intent is never considered as a factor until it is (deliberately knock on, gouging, stamping) while outcome is irrelevant in some cases (high tackles) and the only important factor in others (aerial challenges).

Yeah_Right

Billy86 wrote: »

Is a deliberate knock on a yellow card, though?

Because he essentially said to Hooper that no cards would be coming for it -just more warnings- by refusing to give any yellows when they kept doing it. About 90 seconds later, Ireland does it and he's up to the TMO before you can blink, busily and almost excitedly trying to find out who it was like a bloodhound sniffing the insides of a bag.

It's one thing to get the calls wrong in the heat of the moment or with how fast things can go. It's another to completely stop a game and make a very conscious and deliberate decision that "the thing I've been letting one team off with again and again despite seeing it (and telling all the players on the field as much) all game has now been done by the opposite team... and you better believe I'm going to hammer them for it!" He had plenty of time to think and reflect on just how wildly and deliberately inconsistent he was being, and carried on doing so anyway.

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Hurrache

clsmooth wrote: »

Too true, not sure when this started (possibly Ireland NZ in 2016?), but there seems to be a unhealthy obsession recently with focusing on calls against us, whilst ignoring calls that go in our favour. Maybe a seperate thread for ref baiting whilst any comments on the ref in match threads could be given warnings? :eek:

Again, why are people not allowed to question calls no matter how many calls went for us previously? Have you guys got some unwritten rule which says that a referee's call is not allowed to be queried if we've benefited from previous calls?

You're being ridiculous. If you actually paid attention to the issue instead of jumping onto a misguided bandwagon you'll see the main issue is with how he approached the same offence differently, disregarding his numerous warnings which weren't really warnings at all.

baas baa

Buer wrote: »

amcalester wrote: »

About 80 seconds in to the match.

Wasn't his man or his tackle to make. He could have reacted and taken Beale down but that would have been great covering by him. He was tracking Foley. No player on the field was going to adjust to take Beale down on that cut. The drift was covering that.

I only saw highlights but it looked like he over committed on Foley and got caught in a bit of no mans land. He has been prone to getting caught out in open field in a green jersey.

Anthracite

Yeah_Right wrote: »

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Wasn't that one of three deliberate knock-ons by Australia? One in midfield, which was just a penalty, fair enough, but there was one on their try line that was unpunished aside from a penalty advantage, and another one where a dangerous overlap was killed deliberately.

McGrath's was a stone-cold yellow. Two of the Australians should have seen yellow. They got none. That's the problem.

pickarooney

Angus Gardner does a pretty good summary of when a knock is deliberately, a penalty or a card here.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1688792341156256&id=182241841811321&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Ffoxrugby%2Fvideos%2F1688792341156256%2F

Yeah_Right

Hurrache wrote: »

Again, why are people not allowed to question calls no matter how many calls went for us previously? Have you guys got some unwritten rule which says that a referee's call is not allowed to be queried if we've benefited from previous calls?

You're being ridiculous. If you actually paid attention to the issue instead of jumping onto a misguided bandwagon you'll see the main issue is with how he approached the same offence differently, disregarding his numerous warnings which weren't really warnings at all.

I think the issue is the constant whinging. Other posters have given explanations about how the situations were different or why calls were made but some people ignore those explanations and just keep bleating about the ref being biased or incompetent.

Shefwedfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

I hate that, if it’s a yellow it’s a yellow....a try should not stop giving the player a yellow

Hurrache

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the issue is the constant whinging. Other posters have given explanations about how the situations were different or why calls were made but some people ignore those explanations and just keep bleating about the ref being biased or incompetent.

But there hasn't. Since shortly after the final whistle there's been more whinging from people like you have been, across threads, than there has been by people you claim are whinging. So much so that it's become a running joke today.

baas baa

What's worse than constant moaning about a ref IMO is prolonged moaning about constant moaning about a ref.

Anthracite

pickarooney wrote: »

Angus Gardner does a pretty good summary of when a knock is deliberately, a penalty or a card here.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1688792341156256&id=182241841811321&refsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2Ffoxrugby%2Fvideos%2F1688792341156256%2F

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

munsterlegend

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

Ref has no problem sending Healy to the bin even though he awarded a penalty try. He had warned the Aussies just before Furlong try but they still give away another penalty and no further sanction.

To be honest I would favour something like ice hockey where if a team scores a try during sin bin then they should be restored to full numbers then. I think a try and a yellow is too severe.

pickarooney

Anthracite wrote: »

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

I still haven't seen the Foley one. The one in the first half, at first glance was never a card though.

Anthracite

pickarooney wrote: »

I still haven't seen the Foley one. The one in the first half, at first glance was never a card though.

The one I think you are referring to was in the middle of the park, and I agree.

mangobob

Billy86 wrote: »

Can you please stop complaining about people complaining about people complaining about the ref!? :mad:

So you're complaining about my complaining about people complaining about other people complaining about the ref?!

Jaysus we just played a great match and had our first win down under in nearly 40 years and all some people can do is moan :rolleyes: :pac: :P

Yeah_Right

Anthracite wrote: »

Wasn't that one of three deliberate knock-ons by Australia? One in midfield, which was just a penalty, fair enough, but there was one on their try line that was unpunished aside from a penalty advantage, and another one where a dangerous overlap was killed deliberately.

McGrath's was a stone-cold yellow. Two of the Australians should have seen yellow. They got none. That's the problem.

Was Foley's one the one that killed the overlap? That one was 50:50 for me. I understand not giving a yellow but I also could understand a yellow there. There was a lot of cover and it was instinctive so that might have been a factor in the non card.

Like I said, Furlong scoring kept Australia at 15 players. I would actually like to see refs card players for repeated infringements on their line even if the other side scores. I think that would take a directive from World Rugby though.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Anthracite wrote: »

Nice one. So, for the example of Foley (?) deliberately knocking on when we had a overlap (albeit in our own half) that's a yellow, according to Gardner.

He might have been judged to be trying to intercept the ball which is why knock ons are rarely yellow cards.

If anything there were too many yellow cards in the game anyway.

Boscoirl

But the ref called it as a deliberate knock on, but still,gave the pen only

Billy86

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Did you actually watch the game? With the sound on? Or did you reach the above conclusion by reading Twitter?

The ref blew for a knock on by Phipps originally. His AR (Gauzerre?) said he saw foul play so they should go to the TMO. Then he correctly yellow carded McGrath. Interesting that Poite gave a yellow card against England for an almost identical situation. The Foley knock on was completely different. So in answer to your question, sometimes a deliberate knock on is a yellow card. Just like sometimes it's a penalty try.

If Furlong hadn't scored, it's almost certain the Aussies would have lost a player. For some reason scoring a try often seems to wipe the slate clean.

He called it a deliberate knock on and gave no yellow... why?

He also penalised Caleb Timu about 20 minutes in for another deliberate knock on, blew it up and gave us the penalty which Sexton scored without even playing advantage as he was so sure of it... but no yellow. Why was that?

But as soon as we did he was like a fecking hawk looking to get the TMO to keep replaying and replaying until they could identify and card the Irish player responsible.

Phonehead

By my count there's more people complaining about people complaining 🀣🀣

Anthracite

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

He might have been judged to be trying to intercept the ball which is why knock ons are rarely yellow cards.

If anything there were too many yellow cards in the game anyway.

That's another issue, and you may well be right. But on the first point, intention doesn't come into it. According to Gardner, what matters is whether you are in a position to play the ball after you knock it on.

Yeah_Right

Billy86 wrote: »

He called it a deliberate knock on and gave no yellow... why?

He also penalised Caleb Timu about 20 minutes in for another deliberate knock on, blew it up and gave us the penalty which Sexton scored without even playing advantage as he was so sure of it... but no yellow. Why was that?

But as soon as we did he was like a fecking hawk looking to get the TMO to keep replaying and replaying until they could identify and card the Irish player responsible.

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

shootermacg

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

Yes we should all listen to this sage words of advice. Nobody knows the ref like they do in NZ, where they call him the 16th man I believe

Clegg

Australia weren't much different from last week I think. They defended brilliantly, Pocock still had a positive influence on the game and they were very fluid in attack at times.

But this week Beale was shockingly poor. He was weak in defence and his kicking, which was so accurate last week, was too long and didn't invite Folau to challenge for them. Last week he brought the ball to the line and released it to an oncoming runner. We sussed that out this week and his game went to pot. He's their main man in attack and we shut him down brilliantly imo.

Elvisjuice

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

same as cocks **** last week , and he got off scot free

fitz

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Why? Because in some situations it warrants a yellow and in others it's just a penalty.

I don't remember the Timu one so I can't comment. Foley's was a fluid situation and more instinctive. He decided penalty only. McGrath's was static and cynical. Not the same.

Once again, it wasn't the ref that spotted McGrath it was the AR who saw it. Once the ref and the TMO saw the hand it was always going to be a card so of course they watched it a few times to make sure they got the right player.

No complaint about Jack's yellow, that was cynical and stupid, fully deserved.

But on Foley's... context is key.
It wasn't the first Aussie deliberate knock on, and came after a slew of penalties that the ref's warned them would result in a card for persistent infringement.
In isolation, Foley's can be viewed as one of those you see not carded, but there's no defending not giving a card when you take into account the previous infringements and warning.