Dublin - BusConnects

geo88 · 25-04-2018 2:19am

Came to this thread hoping to find some newer information on the bus connects project , specifically around BRT and route changes, and found a (very) healthy discussion on the design of bus stop signs, which leads me to believe that it's still very early days when it comes to the big changes - and that there's not a lot of info out there.

Has anyone spotted any timeline for the BRT and the Orbital Bus Corridors so far / or knows of any rumours on when work would start on them / when they would hopefully be delivered?

LXFlyer · 25-04-2018 5:55am

geo88 wrote: »

Came to this thread hoping to find some newer information on the bus connects project , specifically around BRT and route changes, and found a (very) healthy discussion on the design of bus stop signs, which leads me to believe that it's still very early days when it comes to the big changes - and that there's not a lot of info out there.

Has anyone spotted any timeline for the BRT and the Orbital Bus Corridors so far / or knows of any rumours on when work would start on them / when they would hopefully be delivered?

Nothing is likely to actually physically happen until early next year at the earliest in terms of infrastructural work and network redesign. Even then I’m not holding my breath given the possibility of objections to the scale of change and potential CPO activity that may be involved.

Bear in mind that we have not even got to public consultation phase yet for either of these elements of the project, but which is due in this quarter.

That being said a new orbital bus route 175 operated by Go Ahead across southern Dublin is likely to start later this year.

mortimer33 · 25-04-2018 12:43pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

That being said a new orbital bus route 175 operated by Go Ahead across southern Dublin is likely to start later this year.

I can't find any information on this bus route apart from it being from Citywest to UCD. Any route map?

LXFlyer · 25-04-2018 12:57pm

mortimer33 wrote: »

I can't find any information on this bus route apart from it being from Citywest to UCD. Any route map?

Nothing yet.

But it likely to operate directly along the Green Route between Old Bawn and Ballinteer and to serve Dundrum.

Beyond that I don’t know.

We will have to wait and see the precise route details.

Heartbreak Hank · 01-05-2018 10:40am

Mentioned at an Engineers Ireland presentation on Metrolink that the CBC designs will be put for public consultation in the coming weeks and the network redesign would come out in June.

roadmaster · 01-05-2018 7:27pm

Apart from the NTA and a few people on boards i would say the general public have never heard of busconnects. Are the NTA planning on running youtube info videos etc to inform the public of the benfits or will they just assume the public will know?

Stephen15 · 01-05-2018 11:18pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Apart from the NTA and a few people on boards i would say the general public have never heard of busconnects. Are the NTA planning on running youtube info videos etc to inform the public of the benfits or will they just assume the public will know?

It got fairly reasonably sized media coverage when it was first announced but faded out of the limelight fairly swiftly. Nothing in relation to it has announced or implemented yet barring a few minor tweaks such as timetable changes, so I would say it will get more publicity during and after the public consultation.

marno21 · 01-05-2018 11:19pm

It will presumably get a major public launch - like MetroLink

loyatemu · 02-05-2018 2:33pm

I expect a 5 min frequency from every suburb in the city to Na Fianna's grounds so kids can get to training. This is what public transport planning is all about.

dublinman1990 · 03-05-2018 5:18pm

I was reading some important bits of information today from DublinBuses.com.

The website said that the NTA did not envisage buying more tri-axles to be used in Dublin. It is a likely scenario from them that the when VT's eventually retire from the Dublin Bus fleet; they won't intend to replace them with new tri-axles. This would mean that more solutions will have to be introduced by Dublin Bus with using double axle double deck buses with the running of their new 24 hour routes in future.

Interestingly; the NTA are ordering 85 more SGs for fleet replacement in Dublin Bus. They will be delivered sometime in late 2018 into early 2019. The NTA are going to trial 3 hybrid buses which will be allocated strictly to only 3 Dublin Bus routes. A further order for hybrid buses afterwards will be made sometime next year.

The NTA are also doing some modifications to various Dublin Bus SGs & GTs through new driver seat testing with lower rear bodywork installation & retro fitting of new push button bells in buggy bay areas & new bulkheads to be installed in all delivered Dublin Bus SG's.

I also heard from other sources that Dublin Bus SGs numbered from 386 to 414 will be reserved for Go-Ahead Dublin when they begin their bus services later this year.

LeinsterDub · 15-05-2018 1:42pm

Cashless public transport is still at least two years away for the capital, according to the National Transport Authority.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0515/963675-leap-card/
Quite disappointing

cgcsb · 15-05-2018 2:02pm

Is there any chance at all in the name of all things holy, that we could get integrated ticketing? Please? rest of Europe has enjoyed this privilege since the second world war. We were promised it with Leap in 2011, but as of yet no joy. At this stage I don't even mind if it costs a lot to scrap leap and bring in integrated tickets, I'm prepared to forget about the money wasted on the leap project.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 2:16pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Is there any chance at all in the name of all things holy, that we could get integrated ticketing? Please? rest of Europe has enjoyed this privilege since the second world war. We were promised it with Leap in 2011, but as of yet no joy. At this stage I don't even mind if it costs a lot to scrap leap and bring in integrated tickets, I'm prepared to forget about the money wasted on the leap project.

There have been integrated monthly and annual tickets for years.

And to correct you (again), I don’t recall the NTA ever saying that the introduction of LEAP would include single integrated fares across modes.

I think you listened to politicians a bit too much and took what they were saying as gospel.

BusConnects however does include a commitment to changing without fare penalty - again I will wait to see whether that happens.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 2:19pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2018/0515/963675-leap-card/
Quite disappointing

Not surprising though.

If BusConnects actually happens there will be a massive amount of change happening in the next couple of years.

Much of that will cost money so it’s down to priorities.

G_R · 15-05-2018 2:34pm

That article mentions that 70pc of journeys in Dublin are now paid for using leap.

Do you think that includes social welfare cards? If so I would have thought the percentage would be higher. Why would you still pay with cash when leap is so much cheaper and has capping etc.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 2:40pm

G_R wrote: »

That article mentions that 70pc of journeys in Dublin are now paid for using leap.

Do you think that includes social welfare cards? If so I would have thought the percentage would be higher. Why would you still pay with cash when leap is so much cheaper and has capping etc.

Switching away from cash is ultimately going to be a political decision and the NTA need to be sure that they will have political backing to do it.

There’s still a sizeable rump of the Irish population who don’t trust cards of any sort and unfortunately they shout loudly.

Logic doesn’t come into convincing them sadly.

So it’s going to have to be very carefully managed.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 15-05-2018 2:48pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Switching away from cash is ultimately going to be a political decision and the NTA need to be sure that they will have political backing to do it.

There’s still a sizeable rump of the Irish population who don’t trust cards of any sort and unfortunately they shout loudly.

Logic doesn’t come into convincing them sadly.

So it’s going to have to be very carefully managed.

Make the cash fares 5 or 10 times the leap card fares. It's ridiculous the amount of time wasted sitting at bus stops while people count out their change.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 2:54pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Make the cash fares 5 or 10 times the leap card fares. It's ridiculous the amount of time wasted sitting at bus stops while people count out their change.

Well try that without having political backing and it’ll crash immediately.

Public transport is one of those areas where it’s always baby steps in terms of managing change.

That much should be obvious to anyone with an understanding of the history of political interventions over the years.

I don’t agree with it but believe me it’s very difficult to change something as significantly as that without backing from all the parties.

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 2:54pm

Pauln90 wrote: »

Have you anymore information?

Like what?

bg07 · 15-05-2018 6:00pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

There have been integrated monthly and annual tickets for years.

How are monthly and annual tickets going to work with go ahead? Will DB/multi operator monthly/annual tickets work on Go Ahead buses?

LXFlyer · 15-05-2018 6:47pm

bg07 wrote: »

How are monthly and annual tickets going to work with go ahead? Will DB/multi operator monthly/annual tickets work on Go Ahead buses?

Yes they will.
No change as far as the end user is concerned.

Think of them as Dublin City PSO services tickets rather than Dublin Bus per se.

bk · 15-05-2018 9:31pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Is there any chance at all in the name of all things holy, that we could get integrated ticketing? Please? rest of Europe has enjoyed this privilege since the second world war. We were promised it with Leap in 2011, but as of yet no joy. At this stage I don't even mind if it costs a lot to scrap leap and bring in integrated tickets, I'm prepared to forget about the money wasted on the leap project.

Leap is actually a really good ticketing system from the technical aspect * and could easily do true integrated ticketing if we wanted it to.

The problem isn't Leap, the problem is in getting DB/IR/BE and everyone else to agree to integrated ticketing and how the fare box gets divided up between each of them.

It is a policy issue, rather then technical.

* Use the DB/BE ticket machines are atrocious and badly need to be replaced, but again these far pre-date Leap.

Sam Russell · 15-05-2018 9:43pm

bk wrote: »

Leap is actually a really good ticketing system from the technical aspect * and could easily do true integrated ticketing if we wanted it to.

The problem isn't Leap, the problem is in getting DB/IR/BE and everyone else to agree to integrated ticketing and how the fare box gets divided up between each of them.

It is a policy issue, rather then technical.

* Use the DB/BE ticket machines are atrocious and badly need to be replaced, but again these far pre-date Leap.

The answer in for NTA to get the fare box.

bk · 15-05-2018 9:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The answer in for NTA to get the fare box.

Yes and that is what will start to happen with GoAhead and their 10% of routes.

But it will be a slow and multi-year if not decade process I fear.

cgcsb · 16-05-2018 11:43am

bk wrote: »

Leap is actually a really good ticketing system from the technical aspect * and could easily do true integrated ticketing if we wanted it to.

The problem isn't Leap, the problem is in getting DB/IR/BE and everyone else to agree to integrated ticketing and how the fare box gets divided up between each of them.

It is a policy issue, rather then technical.

* Use the DB/BE ticket machines are atrocious and badly need to be replaced, but again these far pre-date Leap.

DB/BE and IR are all part of the CIE group, 100% owned by the state, failure to integrate ticketing between them is unforgiveable. The state can simply instruct them what to do.

Sam Russell · 16-05-2018 11:53am

cgcsb wrote: »

DB/BE and IR are all part of the CIE group, 100% owned by the state, failure to integrate ticketing between them is unforgiveable. The state can simply instruct them what to do.

Or get the NTA to do it for them.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2018 1:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

DB/BE and IR are all part of the CIE group, 100% owned by the state, failure to integrate ticketing between them is unforgiveable. The state can simply instruct them what to do.

Again, there ARE already integrated ticket products for regular passengers. You keep ignoring this fact.

Ultimately funding is the issue here - the companies would be out of pocket if you introduce time based multi-modal ticketing so how do they fill that shortfall. Until recently subsidies were reducing and that’s only starting to change now.

cgcsb · 16-05-2018 1:53pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Again, there ARE already integrated ticket products for regular passengers. You keep ignoring this fact.

I'm not ignoring that fact. My point is that it is simply not good enough for the 21st century.

xper · 16-05-2018 1:54pm

BusConnects timelines according to TII chief executive Michael Nolan speaking to the Oireachtas transport committee:

The redesigned Dublin bus network, with reconfigured routes, schedules and fare structures, would be published in July as part of the Bus Connects programme, deputy chief executive of Transport Infrastructure Ireland Hugh Creegan told the committee.

Plans for investment in infrastructure on the 16 core bus corridors in and out of the city, would be published in October he said.

Source: Irish Times

cgcsb · 16-05-2018 2:18pm

Interesting. The decision on the College Green fiasco is to be made 'before august'. I wonder will the coincide? certainly there'll have to be immediate changes to routes to accommodate the plaza. Interesting times ahead.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2018 3:15pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'm not ignoring that fact. My point is that it is simply not good enough for the 21st century.

Your posts do ignore it.

There have been monthly and annual multi-mode passes available for decades.

Your posts read as if they were never available.

They cover the vast majority of PT users, another fact you seem to conveniently overlook.

Again to extend that to single tickets will cost money and somehow the operating companies will have to be compensated for loss of earnings - that means subsidy increases.

Single journey time based ticketing (despite what you seem to think) was never proposed by the NTA as happening.

What they and politicians took as integrated ticketing was the single card with discounts for cross-mode travel.

Sam Russell · 16-05-2018 3:23pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Again to extend that to single tickets will cost money and somehow the operating companies will have to be compensated for loss of earnings - that means subsidy increases.

It could be paid for by changes to the FTP system. Either a change to validity - say not before 9:30 am, or by a small charge for intercity rail use, or perhaps by some other limit, like no companion or spouse passes.

However, the FTP is invaluable for social inclusion. For example, elderly drivers are put off the road by medical checks, and it allows social interaction for them which otherwise might be impossible.

I would support increased subsidy, if it was not to be paid out in increased wages.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2018 3:24pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It could be paid for by changes to the FTP system. Either a change to validity - say not before 9:30 am, or by a small charge for intercity rail use, or perhaps by some other limit, like no companion or spouse passes.

However, the FTP is invaluable for social inclusion. For example, elderly drivers are put off the road by medical checks, and it allows social interaction for them which otherwise might be impossible.

I would support increased subsidy, if it was not to be paid out in increased wages.

Political suicide Sam.

Sam Russell · 16-05-2018 3:32pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Political suicide Sam.

I know, but it is what should be done.

The FTP has grown and grown over the years. It used to be restricted to outside rush hour, but now it is not.

It is totally out of control at this stage. I know of one person down the country who has a companion pass on the basis she looks after a neighbour who is house bound, so does not use their FTP. The Companion FTP is used for shopping trips up to Dublin.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2018 3:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I know, but it is what should be done.

The FTP has grown and grown over the years. It used to be restricted to outside rush hour, but now it is not.

It is totally out of control at this stage. I know of one person down the country who has a companion pass on the basis she looks after a neighbour who is house bound, so does not use their FTP. The Companion FTP is used for shopping trips up to Dublin.

What should be done and what can and will be done are two different things.

You need to be realistic politically in your expectations.

Sam Russell · 16-05-2018 4:10pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

What should be done and what can and will be done are two different things.

You need to be realistic politically in your expectations.

I think an element of cynicism has crept into my expectations, so being realistic means being permanently disappointed.

LXFlyer · 16-05-2018 4:23pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think an element of cynicism has crept into my expectations, so being realistic means being permanently disappointed.

I’ve long taken the view that where politicians are involved with public transport, if you keep expectations low then you can (occasionally) end up being pleasantly surprised!

Expecting snap decisions and the Earth, Moon and stars generally ends up with disappointment!!

Qrt · 12-06-2018 12:06am

Just caught the end of The Tonight Show, IT headline was "Dublin homes to lose gardens over bus project" or something along those lines. Anyone interested in the BusConnects project already knew this, but would this make the first news story specifically around gardens? I sincerely hope TDs and other politicians back it 100%.

Zebra3 · 12-06-2018 12:06am

Just caught the end of the Tonight Show on TV3 and they had tomorrow’s papers up.

Tuesday’s main story on the front of the Irish Times (according to the presenters) claims that 1,300 gardens will be CPO’d in Dublin for new bus and rail lines.

marno21 · 12-06-2018 12:11am

And so it begins

Tomorrow's Irish Times features a headline on the ramifications of bus corridor improvement relating to people losing their gardens

It would be a sin to lead with the people involved getting an actual public transport service

Qrt · 12-06-2018 12:16am

marno21 wrote: »

And so it begins

Tomorrow's Irish Times features a headline on the ramifications of bus corridor improvement relating to people losing their gardens

It would be a sin to lead with the people involved getting an actual public transport service

It seems to refer to rail projects too, I'm guessing that's MetroLink related, but could it be something to do with the DART expansion too?

marno21 · 12-06-2018 12:23am

Qrt wrote: »

It seems to refer to rail projects too, I'm guessing that's MetroLink related, but could it be something to do with the DART expansion too?

I was watching on Saorview so couldn't make anything out due to the blurryness, I've tried to look for the front page since but no luck so far.

Rail projects could be to do with either a) the existing Metrolink project or b) perhaps some change to the alignment post public consultation?

Perhaps the Merrion Gates project also, but that isn't really a "rail project".

Given the precedent I was expecting this, it'll likely drag on to the point that BusConnects gets watered down beyond usefulness.

Qrt · 12-06-2018 12:30am

marno21 wrote: »

Given the precedent I was expecting this, it'll likely drag on to the point that BusConnects gets watered down beyond usefulness.

I've always prepared for this myself but I'm willing to be cautiously optimistic. Anyway, if the small stretch from the Walkinstown Roundabout to the Halfway House doesn't get a southbound bus lane at least, I'll be looking at emigration.

marno21 · 12-06-2018 3:10am

From the IT article:

BusConnects is to be announced TODAY, June 12th

* Will require the CPO of approximately gardens/parking spaces from 1,300 homes
* 230km of expanded bus lanes, 200km of cycle lanes
* Routes: Clongriffin-CC, Swords-CC (Metro ?????), Ballymun-CC (Metro?????), Finglas-Phibsborough, Blanchardstown-CC, Lucan-CC (what about the Luas?), Liffey Valley-CC, Clondalkin-Drimnagh, Greenhills-CC, Kimmage-CC, Tallaght-Terenure, Rathfarnham-CC, Bray-CC (Luas in planning? DART in existance ?), UCD/Ballsbridge-CC, Blackrock-Merrion, Ringsend-CC
* General traffic lanes will be one in each direction on above routes
* Gardens to be CPO'd to facilitate bus lane in each direction, NTA will landscape remainder of garden and find alternative parking for residents
* Will also involve narrowing of footpaths and removal of trees
* NTA: "tough choices required" if bus network is to be improved. No longer any simple changes possible to give meaningful benefits

Dublin NW TD Noel Rock has criticised the NTA, saying that tens of thousands of homeowners now fear they will be affected. "Progress always has a price, but decent communication, transparency and fair treatment of those affected should be essential". Some houses could end up just yards from the road edge, he said

* Radial routes to be complete first, orbital routes after
* CPO of gardens required on all routes bar Ringsend-CC
* Each route has "route specific challenges, such as the requirement to widen the Mahalide Road between Griffith Avenue and Fairview on the Clongriffin corridor. On Liffey Valley-CC, Mount Brown would be restricted to cyclists/PT/local access. Rathfarnham-CC would require narrowing of footpaths on Rathmines Road

marno21 · 12-06-2018 4:16am

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

tom1ie · 12-06-2018 8:02am

The reaction to this will be interesting indeed! If I'm reading it correctly on the tallaght to terenure route there will be qbc's from the n81/m50 junction through templeogue village and out to terenure, where general traffic will be one way but bus traffic will be two way.
Cant imagine this going down to well with the locals.

Rulmeq · 12-06-2018 8:06am

marno21 wrote: »

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

While I feel that underground is the way to go for new PT in Dublin, I know that when they opened the Luas the reduced/changed 44 meant that people who weren't near a luas station no longer had the same level of service, and also when the luas isn't running there isn't a good alternative route.

The reaction to the suggestion that people will have to give up gardens and partking spaces makes me think this isn't going to happen anyway.

Dardania · 12-06-2018 8:08am

Rulmeq wrote: »

marno21 wrote: »

BusConnects public consultation document:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4501387-Bus-Connects-Report-June-2018.html

IMO, the Ballymun-CC is highly questionable. Shadowing the Metrolink route along most of its route. Sure it'll provide feed to Metrolink but is it really that much of a requirement? It'll also make Mobhi Road one way, which, given the reaction to the Metro plan, likely will get politically kyboshed.

An awful lot of road closures to general traffic proposed, either in full or one way. It'll be interesting to see the reaction to this.

While I feel that underground is the way to go for new PT in Dublin, I know that when they opened the Luas the reduced/changed 44 meant that people who weren't near a luas station no longer had the same level of service, and also when the luas isn't running there isn't a good alternative route.

The reaction to the suggestion that people will have to give up gardens and partking spaces makes me think this isn't going to happen anyway.

I wonder, will reminding people that they still have back gardens help? And maybe throwing some money at triple glazing to deal with upcoming noise complaints...

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 12-06-2018 8:12am

This is going to get absolutely buried in planning complaints now. Never going to happen

LXFlyer · 12-06-2018 8:13am

marno21 wrote: »

And so it begins

Tomorrow's Irish Times features a headline on the ramifications of bus corridor improvement relating to people losing their gardens

It would be a sin to lead with the people involved getting an actual public transport service

To be fair Marno21, the reality is that the required CPO activity is going to be the major political issue here as I’ve warned all along. It’s one thing saying you’re going to spend €2 billion on the bus network, but it’s a whole different ball game when it involves mass purchase of private property, particularly front gardens! This element would have gone over most people’s heads when the project was launched originally.

It’s on a much greater scale than Metrolink and I can see this dragging on through the courts for some time.

They need to get the politicians on side for this, otherwise this will end up being scaled back to more half measures.

If I’m honest, despite being pro-public transport all of my life, I think that when the reality of losing direct bus services for their journey dawns on people, and combined with this scale of CPO work, this project is going to end up being mired in objections and the courts and many of the proposals canned.

The outer orbital elements have probably the best chance of success given that most of the routes are wide enough as it is.

Dublin - BusConnects

Comments