The Jews can revive a dead language reserved for ceremonial purposes

ohnonotgmail · 05-06-2018 11:24PM

feargale wrote: »

Catalan, yes.

I don't know where you get Dutch, unless you are thinking outside the European box. It was banned in Japanese-occupied Indonesia during WWII. And Cape Dutch, later called Afrikaans, was discouraged in South Africa until the Afrikaners took political control.
The only banning I'm aware of in Iceland relates to first names. You can call your child Olav or Halldor, but not Sěamus or Archibald.

and Basque

feargale · 05-06-2018 11:37PM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

IRA needs to come back

I would say you've lost most people here with that post. You may have heard of the Good Friday Agreement though my guess is that it was a good wee while before you were born. Maybe when you have put the Junior Cert and the Leaving Cert behind you you will opt to study politics in the uni. If you do one of the first lessons you will learn is that democratic politics is about everybody getting some of what they want and nobody getting all of what they want.
It seems you want the IRA back, blood on the streets again, a 32 county Ireland regardless of whether North or South or all of Ireland opposes it and the residents of the Shankill Road speaking Irish ( and wielding hurleys and playing jigs on the fiddle?) I would advise you to carry an umbrella at all times outdoors when all that comes to pass, because pigs will be flying.

whisky_galore · 05-06-2018 11:41PM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

We can't revive our own language, and choose to speak the language of a nation that caused us 700 years of oppression

Why?

Wait, what?
Missing a century there bud. 800 years is the standard period of oppression.

whisky_galore · 05-06-2018 11:43PM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

IRA needs to come back

Why?

Most of them can't speak Irish anyway. Besides we already have a Gaelgoir Taliban. ..

Filmer Paradise · 05-06-2018 11:49PM

feargale wrote: »

Oops! Did I speak too soon?

Just giving you a reality check on the situation as it stands.

Never before in the field of endaevour has so much money been spent on so few to the detrement of so many Taxpayers.

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 12:08AM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

You can't with only one person speaking it genius.

Conas ata tu anois, amadan mor?

feargale · 06-06-2018 12:12AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The only thing that comes to mind is when part of what is now the Netherlands was a spanish colony but i dont remember them banning the language

If I'm not mistaken the Spaniards used French as much as Spanish in their governance of the Low Countries. A clue lies in the fact that Dutch borrowings from Spanish amount to practically nil. The Spaniards behaved badly there, but the language issue doesn't seem to have greatly exercised them.

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 12:19AM

Czech was revived from near death

Maybe if Irish ladies put in more effort and kept themselves fit and stunning, we'd get a revival.

And also featured more regularly in porn castings etc

Just a theory. Haven't any experimental evidence yet. But ladies, if you're feeling patriotic, send those PMs this way

Wibbs · 06-06-2018 12:20AM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

We can't revive our own language, and choose to speak the language of a nation that caused us 700 years of oppression

Why?

Pretty simple JK. People coming in their droves to settle the place came from all over Europe and beyond and came with the languages of the places they came from. Israel as a new state needed a lingua franca, a common language. Before the formal establishment of the Jewish state previous settlers had mused on what languages they might choose. Naturally Hebrew, a modern version of the old language was one, English was another and even German, yep, was considered for a time as it was the language of engineering and the sciences for quite a while. In the end they settled on Modern Hebrew for all sorts of good reasons and it was expedient for the settlers and the locals to get on board with it as a newly minted living language, so all could converse with each other. Thats why it worked.

Ireland was and remains a different set of circumstances. If we forego the rhetoric of oppression for the moment, in the end of the day we had a lingua franca, one that had been growing from the 17th century onwards. The language of education, politics and especially commerce. And that was English. Now we can go back and forth on the hows and whys of that, but that became and remains the reality on the ground. A reality that even someone like Daniel O'Connell recognised and promoted. A newly arrived immigrant into Israel in the 1950's needed to know Hebrew, an Irish person from the mid 1800's onwards needed to know English. It comes down to a practical need.

And that practical need remains today. Even with all the promotion of the Irish language since the foundation of the Irish state the practical need wasn't there for the vast majority of Irish people. Consider this: the Civil Service required the language to be spoken in daily dealings up until the 1960's. They removed that requirement and overnight civil servants went over to English in their daily dealings. And these were people who were already fluent. If the will to continue wasn't present there, then what hope for the wider culture?

We even see this in the Irish diaspora. Nearly all other cultures kept some semblance of their native languages when they settled in the New World. Except for the Irish. Consider America. A large chunk of the Irish emigres in the 19th century were native Irish speakers(as they were mostly from the poorer end of Ireland), yet they dropped the language not far from stepping off the steamers at Ellis Island. Dutch Americans make up a tiny proportion of the American demographic, yet more can speak Dutch than the tens of millions of Americans that claim Irish ancestry can speak Irish. That says much on a few levels.

If I may ask another question: Are you a fluent Irish speaker? If not, why not?

feargale · 06-06-2018 12:21AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

while that is true those other languages didnt have to come up with them all practically overnight.

I don't know what you mean by overnight. Languages adopt words as they are needed. I spoke Dutch to a decent level some 50 years ago, when it had far, far fewer English loanwords. What the Dutch speak now is practically a different language. Overnight indeed.

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 12:22AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Pretty simple JK. People coming in their droves to settle the place came from all over Europe and beyond and came with the languages of the places they came from. Israel as a new state needed a lingua franca, a common language. Before the formal establishment of the Jewish state previous settlers had mused on what languages they might choose. Naturally Hebrew, a modern version of the old language was one, English was another and even German, yep, was considered for a time as it was the language of engineering and the sciences for quite a while. In the end they settled on Modern Hebrew for all sorts of good reasons and it was expedient for the settlers and the locals to get on board with it as a newly minted living language, so all could converse with each other. Thats why it worked.

Ireland was and remains a different set of circumstances. If we forego the rhetoric of oppression for the moment, in the end of the day we had a lingua franca, one that had been growing from the 17th century onwards. The language of education, politics and especially commerce. And that was English. Now we can go back and forth on the hows and whys of that, but that became and remains the reality on the ground. A reality that even someone like Daniel O'Connell recognised and promoted. A newly arrived immigrant into Israel in the 1950's needed to know Hebrew, an Irish person from the mid 1800's onwards needed to know English. It comes down to a practical need.

And that practical need remains today. Even with all the promotion of the Irish language since the foundation of the Irish state the practical need wasn't there for the vast majority of Irish people. Consider this: the Civil Service required the language to be spoken in daily dealings up until the 1960's. They removed that requirement and overnight civil servants went over to English in their daily dealings. And these were people who were already fluent. If the will to continue wasn't present there, then what hope for the wider culture?

We even see this in the Irish diaspora. Nearly all other cultures kept some semblance of their native languages when they settled in the New World. Except for the Irish. Consider America. A large chunk of the Irish emigres in the 19th century were native Irish speakers(as they were mostly from the poorer end of Ireland), yet they dropped the language not far from stepping off the steamers at Ellis Island. Dutch Americans make up a tiny proportion of the American demographic, yet more can speak Dutch than the tens of millions of Americans that claim Irish ancestry can speak Irish. That says much on a few levels.

I reckon that the Dutch thing might be benefiting from it's similarities to Nazi, sorry, Deutsch

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 12:24AM

Is it allowed to start a title/sentence with the words "The Jews"

Larbre34 · 06-06-2018 12:24AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Conas ata tu anois, amadan mor?

Without fadas, that is as much nonsense as yer man is talking.

Ramming any topic down a kids throat with an antiquated curriculum, for far too many school hours, in a manner that makes them resent rather than embrace it, will never yield good results. The only way Gaeilge will be fostered is to remove it from formal education and link it to other cultural activities such as sport, music and the Arts.

Using the Jewish language in the original post wasnt a suitable example, as they revived Hebrew for common usage because those that flocked to the new Israel spoke 20 different largely European languages in the first place, so Hebrew was as practical as it was cultural. The Irish situation is basically the opposite.

But as you mention it, I have half-Jewish nieces and nephews in California, that are being raised in that faith. They learn English and Spanish at school and then learn Hebrew along with with Jewish culture and customs through music and games at their Temple 'sunday school'. This has given them a grá (see what I did there) for their heritage and its language as one. A lesson for our educators I suggest.

Ursus Horribilis · 06-06-2018 12:27AM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

IRA needs to come back

Is this Godwin's Law as gaeilge?

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 12:28AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Without fadas, that is as much nonsense as yer man is talking.

Ramming any topic down a kids throat with an antiquated curriculum, for far too many school hours, in a manner that makes them resent rather than embrace it, will never yield good results. The only way Gaeilge will be fostered is to remove it from formal education and link it to other cultural activities such as sport, music and the Arts.

Using the Jewish language in the original post wasnt a suitable example, as they revived Hebrew for common usage because those that flocked to the new Israel spoke 20 different largely European languages in the first place, so Hebrew was as practical as it was cultural. The Irish situation is basically the opposite.

But as you mention it, I have half-Jewish nieces and nephews in California, that are being raised in that faith. They learn English and Spanish at school and then learn Hebrew along with with Jewish culture and customs through music and games at their Temple 'sunday school'. This has given them a grá (see what I did there) for their heritage and its language as one. A lesson for our educators I suggest.

You have a systematic bias there in that your sample includes children of parents, who by definition, are making an effort in supporting and encouraging their kids

(I don't think you can be "half Jewish". You're either Jewish or you're not. It's like saying someone is "half-Protestant"

bodice ripper · 06-06-2018 12:31AM

Donald Trump wrote:

I reckon that the Dutch thing might be benefiting from it's similarities to Nazi, sorry, Deutsch

Equally close to English.

PopePalpatine · 06-06-2018 12:32AM

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

Is this Godwin's Law as gaeilge?

You mean Godwin's Lá, surely?

Wibbs · 06-06-2018 12:32AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

(I don't think you can be "half Jewish". You're either Jewish or you're not. It's like saying someone is "half-Protestant"

Hardly. If someone's father is one religion and their mother another then they are "half" whatever. If someone's father is one culture/origin and their mother another then they are "half" whatever. Of course they can choose to identify with one or t'other.

feargale · 06-06-2018 12:47AM

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Just giving you a reality check on the situation as it stands.

You don't seem to have read my posts here.

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

Never before in the field of endaevour has so much money been spent on so few to the detrement of so many Taxpayers.

And can you not make that point without tarring a whole community with a single brush? The English language has a seven-letter word for the inability to do so. I mean as follows:

Filmer Paradise wrote: »

No point. Aside from a few fanatical Language Hawks, Irish language teachers/translators & people in rapidly dwindling Gaelteacht areas with the begging bowl out for grants........

I don't need a reality check, thank you. I have no illusions about what is likely in store for the Irish language and its communities. But a modicum of good manners inhibits me from dancing on the grave of their culture.

As I said, the English have a word for it. It's the same word that would be attributed to a gobs***e who gloated over the extinction of say a Methodist or Anglican community in some remote part of Ireland. Most people value their traditions. They shouldn't have to endure gratuitous jibes for doing so.

Larbre34 · 06-06-2018 12:47AM

Donald Trump wrote: »

(I don't think you can be "half Jewish". You're either Jewish or you're not. It's like saying someone is "half-Protestant"

You can, its a thing. My sister in law describes her kids as that because she considers herself jewish first, American second. They are being raised in the faith so they talk of their heritage being jewish, american and irish, no mention of their Dad's non-practised anglican faith.

caff · 06-06-2018 12:48AM

Force all business including multinationals to deal with revenue in Irish and the language would bounce back. If you could deal with ibecs backlash

Donald Trump · 06-06-2018 01:20AM

Larbre34 wrote: »

You can, its a thing. My sister in law describes her kids as that because she considers herself jewish first, American second. They are being raised in the faith so they talk of their heritage being jewish, american and irish, no mention of their Dad's non-practised anglican faith.

So do they have half a "right to return"? :pac:

Under certain Orthodox Judaism, you are Jewish if and only if (some exceptions depending on the strictness followed) your mother is Jewish.

For the strictest interpretation, if your mother's mother's mother was Jewish, but your grandmother married a muslim, practiced Islam, and her daughter became an atheist and you yourself practice paganism, with all your other grandparents etc practicing a mix of Hindu and African religions, then you're still Jewish. Not half, not a quarter but Jewish.
And conversely, if your mother's mother's mother was Catholic, but every other ancestor you had was 100% Jewish, and you go to Synagogue every week, speak Hebrew etc., then you are not Jewish.

Sure Ivanka is converted Jewish and it doesn't affect my desire to ride her one bit!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-06-2018 01:46AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Equally close to English.

Both Germanic.

In answer to the original question:

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

We can't revive our own language, and choose to speak the language of a nation that caused us 700 years of oppression

Why?

Desire. We don't have the desire to revive it. Nor do we have the desire to force it upon people (or the desire to make it in any way interesting to the people we can force it on).

greencap · 06-06-2018 02:16AM

dedicate media channels to teaching it.

and i don't mean the sht ones that just rant away in Irish fluently, that everyone just switches off, because ... oh yeah they dont speak enough of it to understand.

mix programming at different learning levels, with subtitles in the case of tv. and actual explanations. have actual lessons on the tv/radio.

think about radio, how often have you been sat in the car and suddenly you realise you're listening to absolute gibberish about the latest washing powder or 3rd tier golf tournament ..... that could be done with some vocabulary or everyday phrases on a dedicated teaching channel.

a small lesson, as you're sat there in traffic thinking about nothing, will stick in peoples minds just as much as any of the regular inane piffle.

they'll retain some of it. thats a start, thats progress.

if you want to teach an otherwise reluctant and occupied population you'll have to start from the bottom up with the basics.

theres no point giving them fluent level media and hoping they'll go home and learn all the way to fluency, just to indulge in that wonderful wonderful programming on tg4.

endacl · 06-06-2018 02:56AM

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

There is no excuse. Dutch, Icelandic, Catalan and countless other languages were banned and their countries brought them back and revived them.

We're lazy and cowards. It's pathetic how a country that was invaded for 800 years, it's people starved, abused and culturally raped just gives in so easy and abandons it's language even after we become independent. I could understand if we were still under British rule but we're not. There is no excuse.

The other European countries and EU members don't speak English and are getting on fine.

Cén chaoi a bhfuil do ghaeilge agat?

sabat · 06-06-2018 03:15AM

greencap wrote: »

think about radio, how often have you been sat in the car and suddenly you realise you're listening to absolute gibberish about the latest washing powder or 3rd tier golf tournament ..... that could be done with some vocabulary or everyday phrases on a dedicated teaching channel.

a small lesson, as you're sat there in traffic thinking about nothing, will stick in peoples minds just as much as any of the regular inane piffle.

they'll retain some of it. thats a start, thats progress.

I think people have a lot more of the language stashed away in the recesses of their brains than they realise. Listening to the news on RnG or the Irish bulletin on rte1 can be a great exercise for refreshing your skills because they'll be talking a lot more clearly than some 80 year old seanchaoi from Dingle and you'll know the context of what they're describing so you can make a good guess at any words you don't know.

Wildlife Actor · 06-06-2018 05:09AM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You mean Godwin's Lá, surely?

Tiocfaidh ár Godwin's Lá.

Graces7 · 06-06-2018 06:10AM

Take a trip to Dingle; Ballydavid mass on Sunday in pure Irish and so is the chatter afterwards.. And the folk on the island are bilingual.

Just they see no need to shout about it.. They live it

old_aussie · 06-06-2018 06:40AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly. If someone's father is one religion and their mother another then they are "half" whatever. If someone's father is one culture/origin and their mother another then they are "half" whatever. Of course they can choose to identify with one or t'other.

Or, they could even swing both ways.

old_aussie · 06-06-2018 07:00AM

Your Irish forefather's saw a new horizon would open for Ireland.

This would also enable the Irish to spread out and populate the new world....America, Australia, Canada, and many other English speaking countries.

But the real IRONY is that Ireland needed to realized that to have the "Great" boards.ie, Ireland would need to speak English to comply with the rules of the holy mother of forums... boards.ie...…..

English is the mother tongue of Ireland and is the language that the vast majority of our populace speaks. If you wish to speak in any other language, you must provide an English translation for what you're saying - it's just good manners. Some forums like Teach na nGealt or the Languages sub-forums are exempt from this rule.

The Jews can revive a dead language reserved for ceremonial purposes

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