The Jews can revive a dead language reserved for ceremonial purposes

feargale

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

You will find nothing in my posts which contradicts this. I am simply advocating mutual respect. You will not find any reference by me to "West Brits" or "800 years of oppression". As you say it cuts both ways.
It's a pity that both sides in this don't take a look at how other Western European countries deal with their language minorities.

Taytoland

So it's in decline in the Republic and here in East Belfast we are trying to revive it with people all over learning it here. This is more anti Irish language from the Irish Republic.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Taytoland wrote: »

So it's in decline in the Republic and here in East Belfast we are trying to revive it with people all over learning it here. This is more anti Irish language from the Irish Republic.

At least read a few posts before you post: the reasons for said decline have been stated often enough, but I suppose it takes less effort to read nothing and type "anti Irish language" and stroll off again.

RandomName2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's incorrect. There are many books and documents written in Irish stretching back as far as the 11th century and it appears in annotations on manuscripts as far back as the 5th century.

We have a few. There's Pangur Bán. But Irish culture was predominantly an oral tradition. People educated enough to write were almost exclusively either in the Church, or from non-Irish speaking areas. Almost exclusively isn't the same as exclusively, but it's close.

Old English also has a dearth of surviving work. Beowulf and not a huge amount else.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

In fact, Irish has the distinction of being the first vernacular Northern European language to be written down.

That's debatable, to be sure. I'm not very familiar with the ogham stones but their runic nature makes me think a Scandinavian (Viking settler?) connection.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

My point was in response to the bizarre assertion that Irish "wasn't a written language until about the 18th century, and by that stage it was almost dead."

Yep, almost dead, seeing as we're speaking in the region of millenia. Old English was almost dead by the 12th century. Pictish was almost killed off by Gaelic languages by about the 10th century. Pictish also wasn't a written language, which is one of the reasons for it now being extinct.

This is very understandable - writing is a difficult technology to master, and printing even more so. The creation of books has typically cost vast sums. It's a pity that Gaelic Ireland never became rich enough, or technologically advanced enough that it produced a substantial body of work in the language, by artists and historians.

Taytoland wrote: »

So it's in decline in the Republic and here in East Belfast we are trying to revive it with people all over learning it here. This is more anti Irish language from the Irish Republic.

The way in which militant republicans and ultra-nationalists have worn the language like a flag has done more to harm the language than anything. Speak cupla focal and carry an armalite.

odyssey06

RandomName2 wrote: »

The way in which militant republicans and ultra-nationalists have worn the language like a flag has done more to harm the language than anything. Speak cupla focal and carry an armalite.

And to the cause of a united Ireland... the English language is a bridge between the two communities.
Any suggestion that a united Ireland must also be a gaelic speaking Ireland is only going to keep the two communities further apart.

LeinsterDub

odyssey06 wrote: »

And to the cause of a united Ireland... the English language is a bridge between the two communities.
Any suggestion that a united Ireland must also be a gaelic speaking Ireland is only going to keep the two communities further apart.

The Irish language is also acting as a bridge. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056380205

Is anyone seriously suggesting a Irish speaking United Ireland ?

DEFTLEFTHAND

odyssey06 wrote: »

And to the cause of a united Ireland... the English language is a bridge between the two communities.
Any suggestion that a united Ireland must also be a gaelic speaking Ireland is only going to keep the two communities further apart.

Unionism had links to the language also. It was actually spoken in certain communities 100 yrs ago. Even paramilitary groups like the Red Hand Commandos used an Irish language motto, 'Laimh Dearg Abu'.

The PUP ran Irish language classes for Unionists in east Belfast recently and decent interest was shown. Their goal was to revive interest and educate people on the history between the two.

JohnKyle39

We pay lip service to it as it is part of our culture and heritage yet nobody can be bothered to speak it. We hate the idea of losing the language but are unwilling to put any effort into saving it.

We cling to our Irish identity and resent being confused with the English but we are reluctant to put the effort into reviving and saving it.

It's so bizzare.

Mutant z

Who's stopping anyone from learning Irish this militant attitude about forcing it on everyone is counterproductive and certainly won't help its revival.

Taytoland

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

odyssey06 wrote: »

And to the cause of a united Ireland... the English language is a bridge between the two communities.
Any suggestion that a united Ireland must also be a gaelic speaking Ireland is only going to keep the two communities further apart.

Unionism had links to the language also. It was actually spoken in certain communities 100 yrs ago. Even paramilitary groups like the Red Hand Commandos used an Irish language motto, 'Laimh Dearg Abu'.

The PUP ran Irish language classes for Unionists in east Belfast recently and decent interest was shown. Their goal was to revive interest and educate people on the history between the two.

You have nationalists going into East Belfast for Irish language classes. It's a bit mad but a revival is under way in the Unionist community on the language and it's all done out of curiosity and enjoyment and not forced on anyone. As time goes on you might have a lot of Prods learning it.

Donald Trump

Taytoland wrote: »

You have nationalists going into East Belfast for Irish language classes. It's a bit mad but a revival is under way in the Unionist community on the language and it's all done out of curiosity and enjoyment and not forced on anyone. As time goes on you might have a lot of Prods learning it.

Curry my yoghurt.

Ipso

Taytoland wrote: »

You have nationalists going into East Belfast for Irish language classes. It's a bit mad but a revival is under way in the Unionist community on the language and it's all done out of curiosity and enjoyment and not forced on anyone. As time goes on you might have a lot of Prods learning it.

Their ancestors spoke Gaelic, so not too mad.

_Kaiser_

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

We can't revive our own language, and choose to speak the language of a nation that caused us 700 years of oppression

Why?

Let's see...

- 800 years anti-Brit nonsense... check
- Irish language rant... check

Others have already explained why both of these attitudes are counter-productive, but for what it's worth...

Irish is of no practical value to anyone in 2018 beyond as a novelty, and that's fine.. by all means, feel free to learn it if you wish, send your kids to Gaeltact schools so they can too etc.

But PLEASE.. get over this resentment that it didn't survive (like many other languages throughout history) into modern everyday Ireland and stop trying to force it onto those who have no interest in it.

As for the "Anti-Brit" stuff.. back in those days that WAS how countries expanded - the strong conquered the weak - and pretty much every major European power was at it at the time. You can't rewrite or ignore history to suit a "modern" narrative, and you can be damn sure that if fate had played out differently, the Irish would have been out raping, pillaging and seizing territory with the rest of them!

ohnonotgmail

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Let's see...

- 800 years anti-Brit nonsense... check
- Irish language rant... check

Others have already explained why both of these attitudes are counter-productive, but for what it's worth...

Irish is of no practical value to anyone in 2018 beyond as a novelty, and that's fine.. by all means, feel free to learn it if you wish, send your kids to Gaeltact schools so they can too etc.

But PLEASE.. get over this resentment that it didn't survive (like many other languages throughout history) into modern everyday Ireland and stop trying to force it onto those who have no interest in it.

As for the "Anti-Brit" stuff.. back in those days that WAS how countries expanded - the strong conquered the weak - and pretty much every major European power was at it at the time. You can't rewrite or ignore history to suit a "modern" narrative, and you can be damn sure that if fate had played out differently, the Irish would have been out raping, pillaging and seizing territory with the rest of them!

given how many irish people have served in the british army down through the years that is exactly what we did do.

odyssey06

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is anyone seriously suggesting a Irish speaking United Ireland ?

The OP?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The Irish language is also acting as a bridge. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056380205

Is anyone seriously suggesting a Irish speaking United Ireland ?

You'd have to be a bit delusional (not to mention slightly fascist) to think that's possible.

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

We pay lip service to it as it is part of our culture and heritage yet nobody can be bothered to speak it. We hate the idea of losing the language but are unwilling to put any effort into saving it.

We cling to our Irish identity and resent being confused with the English but we are reluctant to put the effort into reviving and saving it.

It's so bizzare.

So, John, how much Irish do YOU Speak?

Taytoland wrote: »

You have nationalists going into East Belfast for Irish language classes. It's a bit mad but a revival is under way in the Unionist community on the language and it's all done out of curiosity and enjoyment and not forced on anyone. As time goes on you might have a lot of Prods learning it.

Which is fair enough, but, as I said before, you biggest problem isn't anti-Irish, it's pure indifference. What do you suggest (seeing as you started the thread) to overcome this?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So, John, how much Irish do YOU Speak?

How is that relevant? Not being proficient with a musical instrument shouldn't prevent one liking Irish traditional music.

Which is fair enough, but, as I said before, you biggest problem isn't anti-Irish, it's pure indifference. What do you suggest (seeing as you started the thread) to overcome this?

8% of primary schools teach in the Irish medium, but 23% of parents would like to send their child to a gaelscoil if it was available according to an ESRI study, so you're tad wide of the mark with that.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/more-gaelscoileanna-must-be-opened-to-breathe-life-into-irish-1.3424365

hatrickpatrick

The problem with the Irish language is remarkably simple to fix, therefore it must be assumed that there are those who simply refuse to contemplate this for political or ideological reasons. Purge the entire course of any and all "living in the middle of nowhere is so lonely and depressing" bullsh!t literature and watch level of disengagement plummet overnight.

RandomName2

Deleted User wrote: »

How is that relevant? Not being proficient with a musical instrument shouldn't prevent one liking Irish traditional music.

Don't you mean deriding everyone who doesn't know and play Irish traditional music, and saying that they are 'weak, lazy and submissive' for not being able to play that music? This has never been about people's personal choices, but about making it compulsory in schools, in the media, on all literature produced by the state, and having billions spent on it.

Deleted User wrote: »

8% of primary schools teach in the Irish medium, but 23% of parents would like to send their child to a gaelscoil if it was available according to an ESRI study, so you're tad wide of the mark with that.

I wonder how many of that 23% are doing it purely because of the love of the language, and not more pragmatic reasons, such as the quality of teaching in those schools, and the fact that their children will have to become fluent in the language if they ultimately want to get into any high point course at third level.

wexie

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wonder how many of that 23% are doing it purely because of the love of the language, and not more pragmatic reasons, such as the quality of teaching in those schools, and the fact that their children will have to become fluent in the language if they ultimately want to get into any high point course at third level.

I for one would be pretty confident that number of 23% would drop dramatically if people had an option to send their kids to a school that would see their children bilingual in a language the kids might actually use outside of the country, french, spanish, chinese whatever.

Zubeneschamali

RandomName2 wrote: »

I wonder how many of that 23% are doing it purely because of the love of the language

How many are doing it because Irish scares off knackers, immigrants and riffraff generally?

RandomName2

RandomName2 wrote: »

Don't you mean.....

No I don't actually.

wexie

wexie wrote: »

I for one would be pretty confident that number of 23% would drop dramatically if people had an option to send their kids to a school that would see their children bilingual in a language the kids might actually use outside of the country, french, spanish, chinese whatever.

A wild guess I take it, since such a very thing is being piloted in Gaelscoileanna.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/children-in-gaelscoileanna-to-learn-foreign-languages-1.3298859

ohnonotgmail

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

How many are doing it because Irish scares off knackers, immigrants and riffraff generally?

There are immigrants in gaelscoils as well. It is not restricted to just the true born sons of eire.

VinLieger

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

They've been teaching it the same way for decades and are still doing it. We had to read stupid stories to learn it. Why can't it be taught like a normal language?Why won't people take a hint and realize that it isn't working?

We need to take a leaf out of Wales book and do it the way they do.

The people involved in the welsh revival came over and gave advice like stopping making it mandatory and teach it as spone instead of by rote, people like yourself obsessed with 800 years etc didnt like their advice and sent them packing

VinLieger

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

They've been teaching it the same way for decades and are still doing it. We had to read stupid stories to learn it. Why can't it be taught like a normal language?Why won't people take a hint and realize that it isn't working?

We need to take a leaf out of Wales book and do it the way they do.

The people involved in the welsh revival came over and gave advice like stopping making it mandatory and teach it as a spoken language instead of by rote, people like yourself obsessed with 800 years etc didnt like their advice and sent them packing

VinLieger

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

They've been teaching it the same way for decades and are still doing it. We had to read stupid stories to learn it. Why can't it be taught like a normal language?Why won't people take a hint and realize that it isn't working?

We need to take a leaf out of Wales book and do it the way they do.

The people involved in the welsh revival came over and gave advice like stopping making it mandatory and teach it as a spoken language instead of by rote, people like yourself obsessed with 800 years etc didnt like their advice and sent them packing

Professor Moriarty

RandomName2 wrote: »

We have a few. There's Pangur Bán. But Irish culture was predominantly an oral
tradition. People educated enough to write were almost exclusively either in the
Church, or from non-Irish speaking areas. Almost exclusively isn't the same as
exclusively, but it's close.

Almost all cultures were predominantly oral in their tradition until a couple of centuries ago. A poster said that Irish wasn't a written language until 200 years ago. That's completely untrue. I'm not sure what point you're making?

Old English also has a dearth of surviving work. Beowulf and not a huge amount
else.

Well, no. For instance, the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle predates Beowulf by 150 years. Anyway there are lots of manuscripts, documents and books written in English in the past 1000 years that survive to this day. Far more than Irish. However, Irish has been written down since the 8th century and especially so since the 11th century.

That's debatable, to be sure. I'm not very familiar with the ogham stones but
their runic nature makes me think a Scandinavian (Viking settler?) connection.

No, Ogham predates Runes.

Yep, almost dead, seeing as we're speaking in the region of millenia. Old
English was almost dead by the 12th century. Pictish was almost killed off by
Gaelic languages by about the 10th century. Pictish also wasn't a written
language, which is one of the reasons for it now being extinct.

I don't see the relevance of Pictish or Old English. Irish was not "almost dead" by 1800. In 1840, there were 4,000,000 people whose mother tongue was Irish.

This is very understandable - writing is a difficult technology to master, and
printing even more so. The creation of books has typically cost vast sums. It's
a pity that Gaelic Ireland never became rich enough, or technologically advanced
enough that it produced a substantial body of work in the language, by artists
and historians

.

True by comparison to England and other major European powers. Though there was more Irish books and documents than is commonly known. This site is well worth visiting.

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

A wild guess I take it, since such a very thing is being piloted in Gaelscoileanna.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/children-in-gaelscoileanna-to-learn-foreign-languages-1.3298859

you appreciate of course you're proving me right?

right?

wexie

wexie wrote: »

you appreciate of course you're proving me right?

right?

Its the Gaelscoil who’s offering it though, which was my original point.