Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

24-05-2018 12:34PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

"Of course they'll have looked, they'll have talked, but Ulster have always struggled to attract half-decent southern players to NI. In fact, I am not sure it has happened outside of giving semi-pro players their shot at pro rugby.

Unfortunately irish rugby doesn't live outside the real world. Movement between the other three provinces is much more common."

Direct quote. And yes I am doing nothing in work.

Looks fairly reasonable, for the time it was posted.

stephen_n · 24-05-2018 12:40PM

awec wrote: »

There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that Jordi Murphy was encouraged to do anything.

Your third choice ten is being encouraged to move. Whoopdefcukingdo.

The province with the greatest resources, the best schools, the most players, the biggest city is pontificating that other provinces should produce more players. Give me a break.

Leinster have to make up the shortfall? Good. They should have to. It's not a level playing field, we should stop pretending it is.

1/3 of the players going on tour from Ulster are Leinster produced. Think we are doing more than our share to make up your shortfall. The province with the second biggest city on this island population wise, has managed to contribute a sum total of two players that they produced. That's nothing short of abysmal.

molloyjh · 24-05-2018 12:46PM

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

Looks fairly reasonable, for the time it was posted.

Without the context maybe. But IIRC the discussion was in relation to the Pienaar debacle, when some of us were making the point that Ulster needed to either develop their own IQ players or bring in IQ players. Awec was trying to make the points that the players aren't there at Ulster and that other Irish players wouldn't move to Ulster, so Ulster needed to look at NIQs like Pienaar. Yet lo and behold Cooney comes along. In fact, I'm pretty sure a few of us flagged Cooney as a player that Ulster should have been looking at years ago. Awec dismissed that on the basis of "southerners don't come north". But a couple of months later we all know what happened.

Squidgy Black · 24-05-2018 12:54PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Without the context maybe. But IIRC the discussion was in relation to the Pienaar debacle, when some of us were making the point that Ulster needed to either develop their own IQ players or bring in IQ players. Awec was trying to make the points that the players aren't there at Ulster and that other Irish players wouldn't move to Ulster, so Ulster needed to look at NIQs like Pienaar. Yet lo and behold Cooney comes along. In fact, I'm pretty sure a few of us flagged Cooney as a player that Ulster should have been looking at years ago. Awec dismissed that on the basis of "southerners don't come north". But a couple of months later we all know what happened.

"I think Ulster's complacency in having Pienaar is what reinforces the IRFU's decision.

6 years is a huge amount of time for Ulster to have brought through a decent SH from the Academy and blooded him in league games, but it seems like they just haven't bothered and are complacent with having Marshall there.

I know Angus Lloyd was signed up preseason; but has there been any previous movements such as looking at other provinces ie Connacht signing John Cooney?"

That was the original post from myself that his response was to.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2018 01:04PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not unusual. Nucifora has been doing it since he arrived in Ireland.

It's making news now because people will talk about it and the media consider it a story because they have actual substance. Although Nucifora himself spoke about it a while ago.

It is unusual for it to be happening with a capped international.

I understand the general remit of Nucifora and that he has been trying to increase inter-provincial movement of players. You seem awfully convinced Murphy was encouraged to head north for game time based off pretty much nothing though. He is one of the most high-profile players to ever move (maybe the most?) - if there was pressure being put on from the IRFU it would have leaked much like it has been with Carberry.

molloyjh · 24-05-2018 01:20PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is unusual for it to be happening with a capped international.

I understand the general remit of Nucifora and that he has been trying to increase inter-provincial movement of players. You seem awfully convinced Murphy was encouraged to head north for game time based off pretty much nothing though. He is one of the most high-profile players to ever move (maybe the most?) - if there was pressure being put on from the IRFU it would have leaked much like it has been with Carberry.

I can't remember where I heard it, but I did hear that guys were being sounded out and Jordi was happy to have the conversation. I've never heard anything about him being pressured, but I don't think anyone was saying he was.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 01:30PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is unusual for it to be happening with a capped international.

I understand the general remit of Nucifora and that he has been trying to increase inter-provincial movement of players. You seem awfully convinced Murphy was encouraged to head north for game time based off pretty much nothing though. He is one of the most high-profile players to ever move (maybe the most?) - if there was pressure being put on from the IRFU it would have leaked much like it has been with Carberry.

A capped international has moved actually and it was a negotiation that was led by Nucifora. And you've no idea really what makes me awfully convinced about anything.

It's unusual that a capped international has actually moved, yes. It's also completely unusual that a capped international would be behind other capped internationals at their own province.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2018 01:37PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A capped international has moved actually and it was a negotiation that was led by Nucifora. And you've no idea really what makes me awfully convinced about anything.

It's unusual that a capped international has actually moved, yes. It's also completely unusual that a capped international would be behind other capped internationals at their own province.

Henshaw? Obviously that was different circumstances. If it was someone else I have no interest in playing a guessing game with you so you may as well just state who you're talking about.

You're right, I don't know what makes you so convinced. Nor have you shared what makes you so convinced you are capable of making such definitive statements as below:

irishbucsfan wrote: »

While also pretending Jordi Murphy wasn't encouraged to move north for game time!

Wheeker · 24-05-2018 01:37PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Is it not cyclical as regards to players from different provinces making the irish team?
Hayes, Flannery, Horan, POC, DOC, Wallace, Quinlan, Axel, Stringer and ROG....fight among yourselves for the few positions that are left!!
Strong provincial teams tend to equate to more players making the national team.
Ulster seem to be finally making progress with their academy and hopefully that will see a greater representation in the Irish team in the next few years.

stephen_n wrote: »

1/3 of the players going on tour from Ulster are Leinster produced. Think we are doing more than our share to make up your shortfall. The province with the second biggest city on this island population wise, has managed to contribute a sum total of two players that they produced. That's nothing short of abysmal.

Stephen_n: I'm not sure where you're getting your stats?

5 Ulster Players on Australia Tour, 3 produced by Ulster (Best, Henderson & Stockdale), Cooney from Leinster, Herring from South Africa. 1/3 produced by Leinster?

Agree with mfceiling- it's cyclical! There are so many variables as to how players develop, opportunites they get etc. Sure only 2 years ago the Ireland tour to South Africa had 9 Ulster players out of 32 (28%). This years U20 WC squad- 7 out of 28 from Ulster (25%). It comes & it goes, all this talk of Ulster's Academy being "nothing short of abysmal" is nonsense :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 01:40PM

Wheeker wrote: »

Stephen_n: I'm not sure where you're getting your stats? 5 Ulster Players on Australia Tour, 3 produced by Ulster (Best, Henderson & Stockdale), Cooney from Leinster, Herring from South Africa. 1/3 produced by Leinster?

Agree with mfceiling- it's cyclical! There are so many variables as to how players develop, opportunites they get etc. Sure only 2 years ago the Ireland tour to South Africa had 9 Ulster players out of 32 (28%). This years U20 WC squad- 7 out of 28 from Ulster (25%). It comes & it goes, all this talk of Ulster's Academy being "nothing short of abysmal" is nonsense :rolleyes:

Ah well. No problems in Ulster so. False alarm.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 01:45PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

circumstances. If it was someone else I have no interest in playing a guessing game with you so you may as well just state who you're talking about.

Different circumstances but it was (in the beginning) the IRFU trying to convince a capped international to move. Which is exactly what you were talking about. They completely reversed their position eventually, but it was originally absolutely an example of something you said didn't happen.

Podge_irl wrote: »

You're right, I don't know what makes you so convinced. Nor have you shared what makes you so convinced you are capable of making such definitive statements as below:

I don't have to share anything, you're the one who said it was based off pretty much nothing.

launish116 · 24-05-2018 01:54PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Anyway, Independent is reporting that Marshall and Ludik are out for most of next season. So we need about ten new players in total.

(N.B. we do not need LITERALLY ten players, and it is not D4's fault. Just to avert any face-pulling.)

That is very worrying, in now we literally have no back line and lose more experience!

sydthebeat · 24-05-2018 01:57PM

Wheeker wrote: »

Stephen_n: I'm not sure where you're getting your stats? 5 Ulster Players on Australia Tour, 3 produced by Ulster (Best, Henderson & Stockdale), Cooney from Leinster, Herring from South Africa. 1/3 produced by Leinster?

Agree with mfceiling- it's cyclical! There are so many variables as to how players develop, opportunites they get etc. Sure only 2 years ago the Ireland tour to South Africa had 9 Ulster players out of 32 (28%). This years U20 WC squad- 7 out of 28 from Ulster (25%). It comes & it goes, all this talk of Ulster's Academy being "nothing short of abysmal" is nonsense :rolleyes:

2 from 6 = 1/3

Wheeker · 24-05-2018 02:02PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

2 from 6 = 1/3

but 2 from 6 weren't produced by Leinster

sydthebeat · 24-05-2018 02:08PM

Wheeker wrote: »

but 2 from 6 weren't produced by Leinster

i think the point being made is Murphy can be considered an ulster player for this tour, so him and Cooney are Leinster produced.

Wheeker · 24-05-2018 02:09PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah well. No problems in Ulster so. False alarm.

:rolleyes:Not my point at all. Of course we've loads of problems at Ulster- this has been the worst season, on & off the field, I have ever known

Unfortunately it really doesn't look like next season will be that much better TBH.

The point I was trying to make was that focusing on Ulster's % contribution to Ireland squad numbers is not an accurate baromoter, that's all.....

Paul Smeenus · 24-05-2018 02:23PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is unusual for it to be happening with a capped international.

I understand the general remit of Nucifora and that he has been trying to increase inter-provincial movement of players. You seem awfully convinced Murphy was encouraged to head north for game time based off pretty much nothing though. He is one of the most high-profile players to ever move (maybe the most?) - if there was pressure being put on from the IRFU it would have leaked much like it has been with Carberry.

I can't remember where I heard it, but I did hear that guys were being sounded out and Jordi was happy to have the conversation. I've never heard anything about him being pressured, but I don't think anyone was saying he was.

" I can't remember where I heard it but I did hear - " stopped reading.

Paul Smeenus · 24-05-2018 02:27PM

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

launish116 · 24-05-2018 02:34PM

Iwan Huges has been signed up to the academy, Wing/full back. Can't say I know out about him, looking at his highlights seems to have some pace and a step.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RAscgWLA7w

stephen_n · 24-05-2018 02:35PM

Wheeker wrote: »

Stephen_n: I'm not sure where you're getting your stats? 5 Ulster Players on Australia Tour, 3 produced by Ulster (Best, Henderson & Stockdale), Cooney from Leinster, Herring from South Africa. 1/3 produced by Leinster?

Agree with mfceiling- it's cyclical! There are so many variables as to how players develop, opportunites they get etc. Sure only 2 years ago the Ireland tour to South Africa had 9 Ulster players out of 32 (28%). This years U20 WC squad- 7 out of 28 from Ulster (25%). It comes & it goes, all this talk of Ulster's Academy being "nothing short of abysmal" is nonsense :rolleyes:

Whoops forgot about Stockdale

was discounting Herring as he’s not Irish produced at all. So I’m out by 8% it should be 25% of Ulsters contribution is Leinster produced. You think that is a good return? Everyone makes a big thing about Leinsters population advantage, but Ulsters is the next biggest and yet can produce 1/10th of the touring squad. Yes I’d say that is abysmal from Ulsters Academy.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 02:36PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

Do you not realise that rugby is seen as a "Protestant British" sport in places right across the entire island?

prawnsambo · 24-05-2018 02:37PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

Politics forum is that way

>

Wheeker · 24-05-2018 02:38PM

stephen_n wrote: »

Whoops forgot about Stockdale was discounting Herring as he’s not Irish produced at all. So I’m out by 8% it should be 25% of Ulsters contribution is Leinster produced. You think that is a good return? Everyone makes a big thing about Leinsters population advantage, but Ulsters is the next biggest and yet can produce 1/10th of the touring squad. Yes I’d say that is abysmal from Ulsters Academy.

Wheeker wrote: »

The point I was trying to make was that focusing on Ulster's % contribution to Ireland squad numbers is not an accurate baromoter, that's all.....

stephen_n · 24-05-2018 02:39PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

Just out of interest what’s an Ulster fans view of Leinsters difficulty with people viewing rugby as a posh sport and growing it outside non traditional rugby areas, competing with GAA and producing international and provincial players?

Paul Smeenus · 24-05-2018 02:41PM

Stephen - you've posted about it last. You're talking about population of different provinces. What's your take on the different attitudes to the sport from NI's two communities? What do you think are the outworkings of rugby being seen as a "Protestant" sport on numbers of young Catholics playing the sport, or indeed Catholic schools offering it as part of the curriculum?

launish116 · 24-05-2018 02:41PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

Politics forum is that way
>

Bravo, we've Ulster rugby matters to discuss!

stephen_n · 24-05-2018 02:41PM

Wheeker wrote: »

% or numerical what ever you want to measure it by, Ulsters contribution to national team is and has been for some time below what it should be.

stephen_n · 24-05-2018 02:42PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Stephen - you've posted about it last. You're talking about population of different provinces. What's your take on the different attitudes to the sport from NI's two communities? What do you think are the outworkings of rugby being seen as a "Protestant" sport on numbers of young Catholics playing the sport, or indeed Catholic schools offering it as part of the curriculum?

What has Ulster Rugby done to change this? because I know what Leinster have done.

Paul Smeenus · 24-05-2018 02:43PM

stephen_n wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Just out of interest, what's the Leinster fans' analysis of the role the Troubles have played in identifying rugby as a "Protestant, British" sport and it's resultant problems attracting players from the Catholic community in any numbers?

Just while, y'know, we're all about demographics and numbers?

Just out of interest what’s an Ulster fans view of Leinsters difficulty with people viewing rugby as a posh sport and growing it outside non traditional rugby areas, competing with GAA and producing international and provincial players?

That it's not nearly as significant. Not nearly. Especially as it's seen as a posh sport in the North as well. So we have that issue, as well as sectarianism.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 02:47PM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

That it's not nearly as significant. Not nearly. Especially as it's seen as a posh sport in the North as well. So we have that issue, as well as sectarianism.

There's 2 million people in Ulster. Even in an alternate reality where half of them would never, ever play rugby because there were people with links to sectarianism involved, it's still a very weak excuse.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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