Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

bilston · 24-05-2018 11:04AM

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Anyway, Independent is reporting that Marshall and Ludik are out for most of next season. So we need about ten new players in total.

(N.B. we do not need LITERALLY ten players, and it is not D4's fault. Just to avert any face-pulling.)

It probably isn't far off 10.

James Hume and Angus Curtis may get a baptism of fire next season

prawnsambo · 24-05-2018 11:07AM

bilston wrote: »

I thought their sponsor later denied that?

Didn't hear that. Have you a link?

Edit: Not doubting you for an instant, just have been keeping an ear to the ground and haven't heard a peep since the furore about it broke.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:12AM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

In fairness, if they had no offers in writing or confirmed that could be proven, of course they're going to say that when they're appealing to get his legal fees covered.

The rumour was that they had signed heads of agreement with Sale. It might be just that was a slight exaggeration.

Dubinusa · 24-05-2018 11:16AM

Losing Carberry does affect Leinster. But I think Ulster should be allowed to sign whichever 10 they want. If Carberry is not on board to go to Ulster, they should not be forced to settle on Keatley. If Carberry does become the messiah and goes to Munster, it affects Leinster and may bump Munster over the top to winning trophies, which also affects Leinster.
It's a crap situation for both Ulster and Leinster and Munster may be the winner here.
BTW, I would not be surprised if Gibbes does go to La Rochelle and takes PJ with him.

Former Former · 24-05-2018 11:17AM

awec wrote: »

It would have been 6/31 in the Australia squad.

Which is only marginally short of 25%.

It's always fun listening to Leinster fans pontificate about Ireland and how Ireland is the be all and end all when they're own team is in the middle of a golden period and winning all round them. It amuses me a lot. Always easy to go on and on about the system when it doesn't affect your own team in the slightest.

It affects my team when my team is Ireland. It's supposed to be yours too.

I'm not pontificating, I'm pointing out the reality.

"Would have been" is no use to anyone. The reality is that Jackson is gone, the reality is that 5 out of 32 is 15.6%. That's a long, long way short of 25%. Which doesn't bother me in the slightest, we should always be picking the best players regardless of which province they come from.

However, if you're Nucifora and you're seeing all this money going into Ulster, all these clubs and schools, lads playing Champions Cup rugby every season, all these high profile NIQs for local guys to "learn from" and you end up with 15.6% of the national squad - that simply is not good enough, something has to be done about it.

If Ulster can't produce players in sufficient quantities themselves, then they can at least do their bit and give game time to lads who might be of use to the national team. That's how IRFU would be looking at it.

molloyjh · 24-05-2018 11:20AM

awec wrote: »

It would have been 6/31 in the Australia squad.

Which is only marginally short of 25%.

It's always fun listening to Leinster fans pontificate about Ireland and how Ireland is the be all and end all when they're own team is in the middle of a golden period and winning all round them. It amuses me a lot. Always easy to go on and on about the system when it doesn't affect your own team in the slightest.

Eh what!? The system as it stands is very much impacting Leinster. We had a poor run in the 6Ns period because we were down over 20 players. We're losing Jordi Murphy and probably Joey Carbery because they are being encouraged to leave for game time.

I think what you're failing to understand is that one of the reason I'm pissed at Ulster, and I doubt I'm the only Leinster fan in this regard, is because we are covering Ulsters abject failure to develop IQ talent. Of the 32 guys going to SA, only 3 have come through the Ulster system (9.4% of the total number of players). That's piss poor. And other provinces, mainly Leinster, have to make up the shortfall for Ulsters failings. Meanwhile Ulster then get the benefit of players developed by other provinces to fill the gaps that they can't by themselves. And Ulster fans still want to b!tch and moan about how they are being treated unfairly.

Sorry now awec, but this post is proper horse manure. Ireland is the be all and end all, and has been since the dawn of professionalism. That's just the reality, regardless of what Leinster fans do or don't say. And Ulsters (and some of their supporters) inability to recognise that reality is playing a large hand in the issues up there.

awec · 24-05-2018 11:28AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Eh what!? The system as it stands is very much impacting Leinster. We had a poor run in the 6Ns period because we were down over 20 players. We're losing Jordi Murphy and probably Joey Carbery because they are being encouraged to leave for game time.

I think what you're failing to understand is that one of the reason I'm pissed at Ulster, and I doubt I'm the only Leinster fan in this regard, is because we are covering Ulsters abject failure to develop IQ talent. Of the 32 guys going to SA, only 3 have come through the Ulster system (9.4% of the total number of players). That's piss poor. And other provinces, mainly Leinster, have to make up the shortfall for Ulsters failings. Meanwhile Ulster then get the benefit of players developed by other provinces to fill the gaps that they can't by themselves. And Ulster fans still want to b!tch and moan about how they are being treated unfairly.

Sorry now awec, but this post is proper horse manure. Ireland is the be all and end all, and has been since the dawn of professionalism. That's just the reality, regardless of what Leinster fans do or don't say. And Ulsters (and some of their supporters) inability to recognise that reality is playing a large hand in the issues up there.

There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that Jordi Murphy was encouraged to do anything.

Your third choice ten is being encouraged to move. Whoopdefcukingdo.

The province with the greatest resources, the best schools, the most players, the biggest city is pontificating that other provinces should produce more players. Give me a break.

Leinster have to make up the shortfall? Good. They should have to. It's not a level playing field, we should stop pretending it is.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:34AM

awec wrote: »

There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that Jordi Murphy was encouraged to do anything.

Your third choice ten is being encouraged to move. Whoopdefcukingdo.

The province with the greatest resources, the best schools, the most players, the biggest city is pontificating that other provinces should produce more players. Give me a break.

Leinster have to make up the shortfall? Good. They should have to. It's not a level playing field, we should stop pretending it is.

While also pretending Jordi Murphy wasn't encouraged to move north for game time!

Hilarious from the guy who told us that Irish players won't move to Ulster not long ago.

molloyjh · 24-05-2018 11:37AM

awec wrote: »

There is absolutely no suggestion whatsoever that Jordi Murphy was encouraged to do anything.

Your third choice ten is being encouraged to move. Whoopdefcukingdo.

The province with the greatest resources, the best schools, the most players, the biggest city is pontificating that other provinces should produce more players. Give me a break.

Leinster have to make up the shortfall? Good. They should have to. It's not a level playing field, we should stop pretending it is.

At no point has anyone suggested anything about a level playing field. Ever. Yet again you have gone off on a tangent that nobody else is on. Suggesting that the second largest province in the country should produce more IQ players is not the same thing as saying they should produce the same number as the largest province.

I think it's fair to suggest that the second largest province in the country should be capable of producing more than 10% of the internationals in that country. It's even more than fair to suggest they should be looking to be in the region of 25%. Assuming the other 2 provinces will be below that, that would still see Leinster producing 40+%.

You see, not level.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2018 11:38AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

While also pretending Jordi Murphy wasn't encouraged to move north for game time!

Hilarious from the guy who told us that Irish players won't move to Ulster not long ago.

Where on earth is the suggestion that Murphy was "encouraged" to move north coming from??

The selection policy means his options were limited but we have zero reason to believe there was any motivation apart from his own ambition in the decision.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:39AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Where on earth is the suggestion that Murphy was "encouraged" to move north coming from??

The selection policy means his options were limited but we have zero reason to believe there was any motivation apart from his own ambition in the decision.

The same rumours that tell us Carbery or Byrne.

What do you want, an official press release from the IRFU to tell us who they want to move where?

awec · 24-05-2018 11:45AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The same rumours that tell us Carbery or Byrne.

What do you want, an official press release from the IRFU to tell us who they want to move where?

Yea you've just completely made that up. The Jordi Murphy move came out of the blue. There was never any suggestion he was pressured to do anything.

awec · 24-05-2018 11:47AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

While also pretending Jordi Murphy wasn't encouraged to move north for game time!

Hilarious from the guy who told us that Irish players won't move to Ulster not long ago.

I was 100% correct at the time. You keep harping on about this as if it proves some sort of point you're trying to make.

molloyjh · 24-05-2018 11:50AM

awec wrote: »

I was 100% correct at the time. You keep harping on about this as if it proves some sort of point you're trying to make.

I was right until I wasn't, so I was right.

Classic.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:51AM

awec wrote: »

I was 100% correct at the time. You keep harping on about this as if it proves some sort of point you're trying to make.

Ah right we'll see how Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy, John Cooney and possibly even another 10 will get on up there next season so. You told us noone would move, we tried to tell you they would, looks like they are.

awec · 24-05-2018 11:53AM

molloyjh wrote: »

I was right until I wasn't, so I was right.

Classic.

That tends to be how it works.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2018 11:54AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The same rumours that tell us Carbery or Byrne.

What do you want, an official press release from the IRFU to tell us who they want to move where?

Perhaps I am willfully blind, but I don't recall seeing any such rumours. I'm sure you can link to them considering how well covered the Carberry issue has been.

awec · 24-05-2018 11:55AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps I am willfully blind, but I don't recall seeing any such rumours. I'm sure you can link to them considering how well covered the Carberry issue has been.

There were no rumours, he just made it up.

The Jordi Murphy move was very quick, the news of it may only even have broke the same day he signed. There was never any suggestion that any pressure had been applied by anyone.

24-05-2018 11:57AM

Carbery was spotted with his agent and Schmidt, it's hard not to read into that. Murphy said himself he moved for gametime, he wanted to start every Euro game, etc. I haven't seen anything to suggest Schmidt encouraged it, is there anything out there?

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:57AM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Perhaps I am willfully blind, but I don't recall seeing any such rumours. I'm sure you can link to them considering how well covered the Carberry issue has been.

I'm not sure it was printed, but its absolutely what we were told around here. That multiple back row forwards in Leinster were sounded out because of the competition they were getting.

awec · 24-05-2018 11:57AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah right we'll see how Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy, John Cooney and possibly even another 10 will get on up there next season so. You told us noone would move, we tried to tell you they would, looks like they are.

Like Joey Carbery, right? There has definitely been no suggestion whatsoever that he is not keen on a move to Ulster anyway.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 11:58AM

awec wrote: »

Like Joey Carbery, right? There has definitely been no suggestion whatsoever that he is not keen on a move to Ulster anyway.

You're completely changing it now. Maybe he's not keen. That's not what you said, you said people from the South would not move up. This was almost immediately disproven.

Squidgy Black · 24-05-2018 12:12PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You're completely changing it now. Maybe he's not keen. That's not what you said, you said people from the South would not move up. This was almost immediately disproven.

"Of course they'll have looked, they'll have talked, but Ulster have always struggled to attract half-decent southern players to NI. In fact, I am not sure it has happened outside of giving semi-pro players their shot at pro rugby.

Unfortunately irish rugby doesn't live outside the real world. Movement between the other three provinces is much more common."

Direct quote. And yes I am doing nothing in work.

awec · 24-05-2018 12:15PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

"Of course they'll have looked, they'll have talked, but Ulster have always struggled to attract half-decent southern players to NI. In fact, I am not sure it has happened outside of giving semi-pro players their shot at pro rugby.

Unfortunately irish rugby doesn't live outside the real world. Movement between the other three provinces is much more common."

Direct quote. And yes I am doing nothing in work.

So what part of that is factually incorrect?

Squidgy Black · 24-05-2018 12:16PM

awec wrote: »

So what part of that is factually incorrect?

At the time none. I'm not debating, just posting what was said.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 12:19PM

awec wrote: »

So what part of that is factually incorrect?

The point you were making was entirely wrong. Which was that Ulster shouldn't be looking at players elsewhere in Ireland.

Thankfully Kiss wasn't thinking the same way . you were.

Podge_irl · 24-05-2018 12:21PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not sure it was printed, but its absolutely what we were told around here. That multiple back row forwards in Leinster were sounded out because of the competition they were getting.

Sounded out by whom? Ulster? Cause that would not be remotely the same situation. Murphy was an out of contract player who was stuck behind others in Leinster - basically the prototype for these type of moves.

The IRFU actively encouraging specific players to move province is partly making news precisely because it is unusual.

irishbucsfan · 24-05-2018 12:24PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sounded out by whom? Ulster? Cause that would not be remotely the same situation. Murphy was an out of contract player who was stuck behind others in Leinster - basically the prototype for these type of moves.

The IRFU actively encouraging specific players to move province is partly making news precisely because it is unusual.

It's not unusual. Nucifora has been doing it since he arrived in Ireland.

It's making news now because people will talk about it and the media consider it a story because they have actual substance. Although Nucifora himself spoke about it a while ago.

Squidgy Black · 24-05-2018 12:28PM

There will rarely ever be an official statement by the IRFU or anyone employed by them stating that they are encouraging a player to move province.

The fact of the matter is nobody outside of these organisations knows what is being said to players in contract renewals or discussions, other than leaks or the media acting on rumours/alleged inside information.

The only statement about the Carbery/Byrne discussions was from Bryn Cunningham, and then subsequent reactions from Fogarty stating that they want to hold on to them.

If it wasn't for Cunningham mentioning it in the press we more than likely would never have heard about it other than rumours from the media.

mfceiling · 24-05-2018 12:31PM

Is it not cyclical as regards to players from different provinces making the irish team?
Hayes, Flannery, Horan, POC, DOC, Wallace, Quinlan, Axel, Stringer and ROG....fight among yourselves for the few positions that are left!!
Strong provincial teams tend to equate to more players making the national team.
Ulster seem to be finally making progress with their academy and hopefully that will see a greater representation in the Irish team in the next few years.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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