The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

antiskeptic · 23-05-2018 06:41PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Hard laws have forced hard cases.

From elsewhere on boards

"Hard cases make bad law

You must have heard that phrase umpteen times during this referendum and before it, but what does it mean exactly? It means that normally one doesn't frame laws to take into account hard cases, rather you deal with the substance of the issue, the vast majority of the cases that will come under the law. The exceptional cases are dealt with in the discretion built into the administration of the law, that is you can make your case, if you feel you have broken the law for some exceptional reason, to a Garda who has stopped you, or a judge or indeed a jury.

You can see this with respect to nearly all laws if you think about it. We have serious laws against speeding for example, but we don't introduce into the law get out clauses for every available exception. Probably there are a fair few people caught speeding who were heading for a hospital or because of some other just cause but in that case you would explain the situation to a Garda etc. Unfortunately there are probably quite a few people who feel suicidal as a result of some letter from the tax authorities - the same exception that is often talked about in the case of abortion of course -, but exceptions like this we don't add into the tax code, we just hope that inspectors and judges will take them into account in the event of future court proceedings. An exception like this isn't added to this law because if it was there you can be sure a large number of people would suddenly classify themselves as suicidal, and would have all the documentation you want to prove it. It would be impossible to administer most laws if they had to chase up every possible exception and add it into the text. Also every evidence to date is that the law on abortion in Ireland is administered very humanely - some would say laxly -, for example no doctor or mother at all has been prosecuted under the 8th amendment, or under the relevant legislation, since its enactment in 1983.

In this referendum then we see a huge emphasis on the exceptional cases, the yes side hardly ever want to talk about the practical reality that the vast vast majority of abortions that will be performed in Ireland will be on healthy babies in healthy mothers, if it trends anything like the experiences of other countries. So the question arises are you focused on the bigger, more realistic, overall picture then or has the Yes side sidelined you into these elaborate - sometimes hypothetical - exceptional cases, and if so maybe you should realign your thoughts on the matter?"

Mr. CooL ICE · 23-05-2018 06:42PM

Had two leaflets drop in the letter box while making dinner this evening. Girlfriend ran out after the guy and handed them back to him, pointed out the poster up in the front window saying "We are voting Yes on May 25th" and asked why he still posted the leaflets in. Apparently, he won't post them in only if there's a 'No junk mail' sticker on the letterbox :rolleyes:

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 06:42PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Save your outrage for something more worthy. People think abortion solves a problem, in most cases it creates even more trauma. A doctor on the news today said rape cases, which are tragic account for a negligible number of pregnancies yet yes campaigners raise it every time and demonise anyone who raises the percentage of Down syndrome diagnosed babies aborted. Now that's disgusting.

In most cases? Do you have anything to back that up?

So what if it accounts for a negligible amount of pregnancies? It's negligible due to the number of rape cases that are reported...

That's because DS Ireland have asked people twice to stop bringing it up as an argument because it's disrespectful and distressing to those who have DS.

gctest50 · 23-05-2018 06:43PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

So frustrating on the 38 bus home hearing two lads (teenagers, marginal whether they'd be old enough to vote) reading through some No material and talking about how terrible the mechanics of abortion are, how babies can yawn at 9 weeks, reading out verbatim quotes from people with grandiose titles re the College of Obstetricians. And basically coming to the conclusion that it's a terrible business altogether and you'd have to be a psycho to be voting yes.
Have heard similar stuff on the bus before the last few weeks.

I'll give this to you No side people, you've played the leaflet/poster/information game very well.

It shows why they should introduce a bit of critical thinking and fact checking and stuff to schools

Tipperary animal lover · 23-05-2018 06:43PM

Great debate on c4 now

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 06:44PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

In most cases? Do you have anything to back that up?

So what if it accounts for a negligible amount of pregnancies? It's negligible due to the number of rape cases that are reported...

That's because DS Ireland have asked people twice to stop bringing it up as an argument because it's disrespectful and distressing to those who have DS.

DS Ireland don't speak for all downs syndrome people. There was a downs syndrome group protesting outside the Dáil the other day.

Conservatory · 23-05-2018 06:44PM

I was just sitting there thinking about this abortion thing.
I have a cart load of kids. Each time I pregnatised somebody and their mother told me I thought it was the end of the world. There was never a question of abortion. I’m glad I had them all now.
Should we have them on demand for every scared 18 year old or for every woman who decides she just has to do that last year of a college course without taking a break.
I’d have been all for a yes vote until the on demand came into play. I think sometimes the child is important enough to force somebody to turn their lives upside down for a year or two.

There is all sorts of birth control and welfare available to parents these days. I always hear the story of women getting abortions and regretting them because men told them to or because men left but now we have family courts for this.

I am in no way religious or anything I just can’t bring myself to give an 18 year old girl a choice whether to not have a baby she will wonder about for the rest of her life for decisions they think are important at 18 but are silly when you get a bit older and realize.

I wasn’t going to vote but seeing all the college people everywhere today got me thinking about it and I have a polling card in the door I may as well.

I’m not really bothered arguing about this with some idealist or anything you arnt going to change anybodies opinion by arguing with them on boards with multiquotes.

I’m shocked at how much effort some people go to to campaign about this. Your great grand mother risked all sorts of horrible eventualities to have you. Abortions on demand will be taken by girls who would rather go to aus for a year before starting a family. I just can’t get into that idea.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 06:44PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Human rights don't exist

Of all the bizarre arguments I've heard...

antiskeptic wrote: »

From elsewhere on boards

Ahhh so it is a cases of stick your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist?

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 06:45PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Human rights don't exist

Tell that to the UN
A United Nations committee has found Ireland violated the human rights of a woman who had to travel to Britain for an abortion after her baby was diagnosed with a fatal foetal abnormality.
Last year, the Government agreed to pay Amanda Mellet €30,000 compensation after the UN body found her rights had been violated.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-abortion-law-violated-woman-s-human-rights-un-says-1.3118145

Bannasidhe · 23-05-2018 06:45PM

BabysCoffee wrote: »

What's incopotent?

Covfefe without viagra.

Trasna1 · 23-05-2018 06:46PM

Addle wrote: »

I really don't like the correlation some campaigners make between the marriage referendum and the repeal the 8th referendum.
Just no comparisons between them at all.

The yes campaign has certainly taken inspiration from Yes for SSM. They have cloaked their campaign in positive colourful happy language making No dour and angry in comparison. This is some feat considering that very few if any people who have an abortion celebrate that fact. Many consider it a personal tragedy even, especially so in the case of FFA.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 06:46PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

DS Ireland don't speak for all downs syndrome people. There was a downs syndrome group protesting outside the Dáil the other day.

No, they're just the largest and most influential ground who are acting in the best interests of people with DS? But sure, what would they know :rolleyes:

kanadams123 · 23-05-2018 06:46PM

Dole Scrounging Vegan Crossfitter wrote: »

Had two leaflets drop in the letter box while making dinner this evening. Girlfriend ran out after the guy and handed them back to him, pointed out the poster up in the front window saying "We are voting Yes on May 25th" and asked why he still posted the leaflets in. Apparently, he won't post them in only if there's a 'No junk mail' sticker on the letterbox :rolleyes:

Outrageous behaviour

Cupcake_Crisis · 23-05-2018 06:47PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

Human rights don't exist

Oh, ok

eviltwin · 23-05-2018 06:47PM

Conservatory wrote: »

I was just sitting there thinking about this abortion thing.
I have a cart load of kids. Each time I pregnatised somebody and their mother told me I thought it was the end of the world. There was never a question of abortion. I’m glad I had them all now.
Should we have them on demand for every scared 18 year old or for every woman who decides she just has to do that last year of a college course without taking a break.
I’d have been all for a yes vote until the on demand came into play. I think sometimes the child is important enough to force somebody to turn their lives upside down for a year or two.

There is all sorts of birth control and welfare available to parents these days. I always hear the story of women getting abortions and regretting them because men told them to or because men left but now we have family courts for this.

I am in no way religious or anything I just can’t bring myself to give an 18 year old girl a choice whether to not have a baby she will wonder about for the rest of her life for decisions they think are important at 18 but are silly when you get a bit older and realize.

I wasn’t going to vote but seeing all the college people everywhere today got me thinking about it and I have a polling card in the door I may as well.

I’m not really bothered arguing about this with some idealist or anything you arnt going to change anybodies opinion by arguing with them on boards with multiquotes.

I’m shocked at how much effort some people go to to campaign about this. Your great grand mother risked all sorts of horrible eventualities to have you. Abortions on demand will be taken by girls who would rather go to aus for a year before starting a family. I just can’t get into that idea.

Most abortions are on older women like me. I was 31. Are you going to tell me I made a mistake?

Wrongway1985 · 23-05-2018 06:47PM

pleas advice wrote: »

There would be riots if the government rowed back on the proposed legislation, they know this. If the referendum passes it's pretty much guaranteed to be 12 weeks unrestricted, whatever about the exact wording after that. It's delusional to think otherwise

What is your solution? What legislation are you happy with?

No disrespect but your previous posts suggest you are firmly against abortion, is it fair to say should legislation be rolled back on it would still in essence allow for abortion here and you would still oppose it?

Ms. Captain M · 23-05-2018 06:48PM

My 77 year old dad told me this evening he's a yes, I was sure he'd be a no (rural Ireland, goes to mass etc.) I'm so proud! I had a crisis pregnancy 18 years ago, I've been a single mother ever since. It's HARD. I chose not to go to England, my choice. And believe me there's times I wondered if I'd made the right one. It's not something I would ever force on someone else

Dressing gown · 23-05-2018 06:48PM

munsterlegend wrote: »

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Disgusting. You have no idea what people's motivations are, what traumas they or their loved ones have suffered.[/QUOTE

Save your outrage for something more worthy. People think abortion solves a problem, in most cases it creates even more trauma. A doctor on the news today said rape cases, which are tragic account for a negligible number of pregnancies yet yes campaigners raise it every time and demonise anyone who raises the percentage of Down syndrome diagnosed babies aborted. Now that's disgusting.

Abortion solves the problem of being pregnant when you don’t want to be pregnant.

How would that doctor know how many people get pregnant through rape-many never even report having been raped. So their dismissing it as negligeable is a load of Bollox for starters.

Not everyone takes the tests for Down’s syndrome or other genetic disorders. The stats on those that do the tests and get a confirmed diagnosis of Down’s syndrome are already at 50% rate of abortion when it is diagnosed here in Ireland. And you can be sure the decision to do so is not taken lightly. People don’t care about whether abortion is legal or not when their mind is made up to have an abortion. They just travel to England or take pills. Do you really think that making abortion legal here will change those stats? And as has been said before, it’s pretty disrespectful to those people with Down’s syndrome or with family members that have Down’s syndrome or any other disability for that matter that the only reason they are here is because of the 8th amendment.

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 06:49PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Tell that to the UN
A United Nations committee has found Ireland violated the human rights of a woman who had to travel to Britain for an abortion after her baby was diagnosed with a fatal foetal abnormality.
Last year, the Government agreed to pay Amanda Mellet €30,000 compensation after the UN body found her rights had been violated.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/irish-abortion-law-violated-woman-s-human-rights-un-says-1.3118145

The UN recently had Saudi Arabia chairing a human rights committee. What do you think of that?

Conservatory · 23-05-2018 06:50PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Most abortions are on older women like me. I was 31. Are you going to tell me I made a mistake?

I don’t know your personal situation.

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 06:50PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

No, they're just the largest and most influential ground who are acting in the best interests of people with DS? But sure, what would they know :rolleyes:

So they speak for every downs syndrome person?

hatrickpatrick · 23-05-2018 06:51PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If it came down to that, I think the result would be No.

Lots of people think that the first trimester fetus is an individual human being and deserves more consideration than an ingrown toenail, but that it does not have a right to life equal to the womans.

Add the two groups, and I think we have a Yes. Which is why the Yes campaign are generally careful not to insist on your version (which I personally do agree with).

You could easily be right, I just have a hunch that this isn't the case. You're definitely right that it isn't worth risking the referendum result getting into a debate about it, but it does mean that the arguments used to counter "we're talking about two individual human beings here" from the likes of Tobin last night tend, at least in my view, to come across as inherently weak.

Choosing one's battles and all that, I guess. Definitely the pragmatic option under the circumstances.

It wasnt me123 · 23-05-2018 06:51PM

gmisk wrote: »

You don't need a polling card to vote just ID. I don't think address matters. I think worth calling.

Just bring ID - polling staff are being asked to check 1 in 4 to confirm identity

Bannasidhe · 23-05-2018 06:51PM

Addle wrote: »

Ive been all around Dublin City centre and Dundrum today and was not approached by any no campaigner. I saw them in their red, but they didn't bother me.
Yes campaigners were in my face all day long. It was so disrespectful.

A NO campaigner just stuck a leaflet through my letter box despite the LARGE sign saying DO NOT POST LEAFLETS BECAUSE I HAVE CRAZY DOGS AND THEY WILL BARK AND S*IT WILL GET REAL!

My dogs went crazy, Particularly when said eejit then stopped at my front window to wave at them.

He's bloody lucky I didn't open the door and let the dogs return his fecking leaflet. :mad:

minikin · 23-05-2018 06:52PM

Decent enough debate on ch4 news at the moment (+1 starting in 9 mins)

eviltwin · 23-05-2018 06:52PM

Conservatory wrote: »

I don’t know your personal situation.

And you don't know the situation of every other woman either but it didnt stop you making assumptions

bleary · 23-05-2018 06:52PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

The yes campaign has certainly taken inspiration from Yes for SSM. They have cloaked their campaign in positive colourful happy language making No dour and angry in comparison. This is some feat considering that very few if any people who have an abortion celebrate that fact. Many consider it a personal tragedy even, especially so in the case of FFA.

And the no campaign are wearing pink hi vis jackets cos they are all about caring for women just like breast cancer charities. Unless you have cancer and need a clinical trial and find yourself pregnant etc etc.

neonsofa · 23-05-2018 06:53PM

Conservatory wrote: »

I am in no way religious or anything I just can’t bring myself to give an 18 year old girl a choice whether to not have a baby she will wonder about for the rest of her life for decisions they think are important at 18 but are silly when you get a bit older and realize.

.

Can't trust an 18 year old to make the decision for herself as to whether she wants to be a mother, but trusts said silly 18 year old to make every single decision for the resulting dependent child that she will give birth to......em, okay.

Ave Sodalis · 23-05-2018 06:53PM

DickSwiveller wrote: »

The UN recently had Saudi Arabia chairing a human rights committee. What do you think of that?

What an earth has that got to do with anything? How about the fact that WHO and Amnesty both advocate a repeal?

DickSwiveller wrote: »

So they speak for every downs syndrome person?

No, what organisation does?

DickSwiveller · 23-05-2018 06:54PM

Katie Ascough is gorgeous. Why are conservative women always so attractive?

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Comments