The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 03:01PM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Anyway,how many parents of kids being confirmed could even recognise the priest or bishop if they saw them on the street,let alone even name them. One local school insisted that kids making their first communion went to mass every week in the run up to the event and they had to be signed in to prove attendance. The Sunday after they were asked to attend mass again and only 9 or 10 turned up out of all of them.

I'd say very few and the same with my nephews they don't attend church. But I'm not his mother, I cant tell her how to raise their children it's their choice.
I think its funny a bishop, a member of a religion that preaches love both, forgive and tolerate is so intolerant of other another.

nullzero wrote: »

You're reaching big time.
There's a difference between attending a church and pledging to help a child live within the catholic faith when you don't believe in it.
Get a grip.

It's not about me, it was his and his mothers choice to have me there. You know CHOICE

Zubeneschamali · 23-05-2018 03:02PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In my view, the result of this referendum will ultimately come down to whether more people believe a first trimester foetus to count as an individual human being, or not.

If it came down to that, I think the result would be No.

Lots of people think that the first trimester fetus is an individual human being and deserves more consideration than an ingrown toenail, but that it does not have a right to life equal to the womans.

Add the two groups, and I think we have a Yes. Which is why the Yes campaign are generally careful not to insist on your version (which I personally do agree with).

Cantona's Collars · 23-05-2018 03:05PM

spookwoman wrote: »

I'd say very few and the same with my nephews they don't attend church. But I'm not his mother, I cant tell her how to raise their children it's their choice.
I think its funny a bishop, a member of a religion that preaches love both, forgive and tolerate is so intolerant of other another.

It's not about me and was his and his mothers choice to have me there. You know CHOICE

Let's not forget how many of his colleagues in the church throughout the years covered up and were complicit in the abuse of children. Then they have the nerve to preach about loving children.

Trasna1 · 23-05-2018 03:05PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

I don’t think that dropping the 12-weeks will be viable. No matter what the bleeding hearts want or think: the current legislation is the minimum viable option for abortion, and the most appropriate too for both the health of women in this situation and from a value-for-money perspective when compared to how other countries do abortion regimes.

Under no circumstances can incest or rape be prosecuted within 12-weeks. Even 9 months will be a difficult timeframe to achieve. So it’ll become a box ticking exercise where conviction in an appropriate timeframe is impossible so the woman’s word must be taken at face value and nothing more said on the matter. But in reality, we all know that a lot of women will be lying. And no legislation can be considered fully appropriate if it encourages people to lie. The AG wouldn’t be able to allow such legislation. And even if he did, Europe would go ballistic at us for being so wreckless.

The 12-weeks is needed, there’s no two ways around it no matter how much anyone may accidentally misunderstand, or intentionally misrepresent, why it’s needed.

The only way around it would be some sort of statutory declaration up to 12 weeks if no criminal complaint was made. Similar legislation exists in Poland afaik.

It would boil down to trust to in the end. And it would be misused and abused but some, but if someone is going to lie in a declaration would they would seek it abroad anyway?

juanjo · 23-05-2018 03:07PM

nullzero wrote: »

You're reaching big time.
There's a difference between attending a church and pledging to help a child live within the catholic faith when you don't believe in it.
Get a grip.

Why? you'll do your utmost to help that child anyway, so why not say it within a religious event?

Much worse are the churchgoers than then don't behave like real christians when they leave the church...

Cantona's Collars · 23-05-2018 03:07PM

http://www.dailyedge.ie/simon-harris-debate-4029064-May2018/?amp=1

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:07PM

spookwoman wrote: »

I'd say very few and the same with my nephews they don't attend church. But I'm not his mother, I cant tell her how to raise their children it's their choice.
I think its funny a bishop, a member of a religion that preaches love both, forgive and tolerate is so intolerant of other another.

It's not about me, it was his and his mothers choice to have me there. You know CHOICE

I'm not concerned about you. I'm talking about John Halligan. You're not making any sense and I think you know it so type choice in capitals.

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 03:09PM

nullzero wrote: »

You're reaching big time.
There's a difference between attending a church and pledging to help a child live within the catholic faith when you don't believe in it.
Get a grip.

A very religious guy on here yesterday told us all that “you don’t need religion to know right from wrong”. So going by that, surely an atheist is perfectly capable of helping a child to live within the catholic faith?

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:10PM

juanjo wrote: »

Why? you'll do your utmost to help that child anyway, so why not say it within a religious event?

Much worse are the churchgoers than then don't behave like real christians when they leave the church...

Is it not hypocritical of John Halligan to be there with his publicly known beliefs?

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:11PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

A very religious guy on here yesterday told us all that “you don’t need religion to know right from wrong”. So going by that, surely an atheist is perfectly capable of helping a child to live within the catholic faith?

If John Halligan doesn't need religion to help a young person why bother working inside the margins of religion?

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 03:16PM

nullzero wrote: »

I'm not concerned about you. I'm talking about John Halligan. You're not making any sense and I think you know it so type choice in capitals.

nullzero wrote: »

You're reaching big time.
There's a difference between attending a church and pledging to help a child live within the catholic faith when you don't believe in it.
Get a grip.

:rolleyes:
Because I can explain my actions that you don't like, you then say it's about John Halligan well maybe John has the same beliefs, attitudes as me that the kids comes first.

You say you want to save lives that the unborn should not be aborted they are a person, which I could argue they have feelings etc.

Johns godson was unborn, he was then born so what's the changed. He has feelings and I know, even from personal experience you try not to hurt them. Love both, but only on your terms.

Rjd2 · 23-05-2018 03:17PM

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

http://www.dailyedge.ie/simon-harris-debate-4029064-May2018/?amp=1

Good for Simon that twitter is toasting him, but I do hope the dailyedge has a bit more self awareness next time they write about the objectification of female politicians.:pac:

Hotblack Desiato · 23-05-2018 03:18PM

Sardonicat wrote: »

I won't be trying to insert an article into the constitution

Just take it slowly and use plenty of lube and it'll be fine

spookwoman wrote: »

I'm a protestant atheist ... I could have protested

Sorry, just found that juxtaposition funny.

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:19PM

spookwoman wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Because I can explain my actions that you don't like, you then say it's about John Halligan well maybe John has the same beliefs, attitudes as me that the kids comes first.

You say you want to save lives that the unborn should not be aborted they are a person, which you could argue they have feelings etc.

Johns godson was unborn, he was then born so what's the changed. He has feelings and I know, even from personal experience you try not to hurt them. Love both, but only on your terms.

Hang on. He's taken a clearly anti catholic stance and they asked him as a result to not take part in their ceremony, which is their right.
All the rolleyes and nonsense is irrelevant.

Sam Quentin · 23-05-2018 03:19PM

SKY News in Dublin right now getting insight and views about the amendment.
Simon Harris gives fantastic interview and explains without a shadow of doubt why everyone should vote YES.

BarryD2 · 23-05-2018 03:19PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

People who talk about the older generation being a solid No are deluding themselves.

They need to remember that 1/3 of the votes in 1983 were against the 8th, these people are all over 53 now and there is no reason for them to vote for the 8th now if they voted against it then, especially given all the horrors the 8th has caused.

Many other older voters now did not vote in 1983 (turnout was low) but will vote to repeal, some will have voted for the 8th then but will vote to repeal it now.

The polls show a higher No in the older demographic, but as a group they are at best marginally No.

True but people are also inclined to trend towards a more conservative view of life as they age.

I think the success or otherwise of this vote depends on the young vote. If that comes out in any sizable numbers, Repeal will be swept in. Our student children tell us that there's been a big effort towards Repeal in their colleges.

Nothing should be taken for granted but I won't be surprised if the No vote is shown to be confined to a very small well lawyered vocal minority.

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 03:20PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

The only way around it would be some sort of statutory declaration up to 12 weeks if no criminal complaint was made. Similar legislation exists in Poland afaik.

It would boil down to trust to in the end. And it would be misused and abused but some, but if someone is going to lie in a declaration would they would seek it abroad anyway?

Oh god no. No, you’re not right in any of those lines there. What are you saying.

Trust? What I wrote showed the thinking here, if they “trust” a declaration of rape/incest, they know that in reality, women seeking abortions will lie. The legislation will force and encourage them to lie. Laws are not allowed to encourage people to lie. What kind of society do you want to see flourish here if you want us to accept that we should let politicians bring in legislation that encourages citizens to lie?

And don’t ask people to refer to Poland when you clearly know nothing about it. They’ve got the most restrictive regime in the EU that has been criticized by all and sundry for making it extremely difficult for women to access safe, legal abortion in Poland. But, like here, the Polish authorities don’t care because they can gloat about having one of the lowest rates in Europe (whereas really their abortions are being exported via their excellent land crossings to Germany, Russia etc. Polish women don’t go to a Polish doctor, by and large, in 2018. They hop onto a train and go to Germany or Russia.)

I can’t find your last post referencing it but can I ask you, why do you want to see the citizens assembly abolished?

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 03:20PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Just take it slowly and use plenty of lube and it'll be fine

Sorry, just found that juxtaposition funny.

So did I when I was asked. I always expect the soles of my shoes to start smokes when I walk into a church.

juanjo · 23-05-2018 03:21PM

nullzero wrote: »

Is it not hypocritical of John Halligan to be there with his publicly known beliefs?

In support of his family? no. Sure didn't john paul visit a mosque? I think it's called respect.

Edit: Not only john paul.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-prays-in-mosque-in-sign-of-commitment-to-christian-muslim-relations-1417282839

I wonder why pope francis is so respected by non believers.

Sardonicat · 23-05-2018 03:24PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Just take it slowly and use plenty of lube and it'll be fine

We've heard that before. We'll only end up having to tweak things here and there later on because the original article turned out to be too inflexible. ..

/Mrs. Slokam for today

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:24PM

juanjo wrote: »

In support of his family? no. Sure didn't john paul visit a mosque? I think it's called respect.

They have the right to ask him to not participate if they want. I don't support the church and would expect to be welcomed into one of their ceremonies especially if I had a national platform to air my views.
Also I don't think the Pope went on an anti Islamic rant before he entered a mosque, most religious leaders are respectful towards other faiths, they're all in the same racket after all.

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 03:25PM

nullzero wrote: »

If John Halligan doesn't need religion to help a young person why bother working inside the margins of religion?

Since when do you think it’s acceptable to answer a question with a question?

Rjd2 · 23-05-2018 03:25PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the full list is here. It does have a search function

https://airtable.com/shrjybYrav6nobuTs/tbllRWNV6aANY6htW?backgroundColor=green

Is there a doctor for no list? Can't find my doctor there, just curious to know if he/she has endorsed no. I don't mind if they have as its there decision, but would be a little bit sad if they had.

Wrongway1985 · 23-05-2018 03:25PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

Almost certainly if this is voted down there will be a watered down proposal presented to the people in the next Dail. There is too much pressure for change for the 8th to hold out even if this amendment fails to pass.

Yes and their will still be calls to remove the Eighth surely some sort of compromise can be sought for FFA. Their hands will be tied in legislation for rape they won't be able to,perfectly understandable that women in crisis pregnancy will use rape as their reason for termination even if it hasn't been the case.

I noticed John Waters was used as a speaker for the group Fathers for justice Ireland. One of their agendas is to "change the eighth". Having a look at their social media pages their doesn't appear to be any call from them to Vote yes. Strange...campaign against problematic eighth but when it comes to the rights of a woman shut down discussion

Dressing gown · 23-05-2018 03:26PM

I just had a chat with a close friend that I would have expected to be a strong yes. I asked them their concerns and addressed each and every one of them. But, even after that they said to me, look, I knew too many people in college that took the easy option and I just don’t agree with that. I explained it doesn’t really get much easier now with €90 and a few clicks on the phone, it’s just dangerous for it to be going on with no medical supervision. When that point, and every other raised was also in fairness conceded, the response was this; look at the end of the day I am the one that has to meet my maker. So there you have it. The fear of God. Sadly I think this is going to be a no vote and I think it will carry on a greater margin than we think.

I do think it will come in eventually but we will need a few more maternal deaths first before consciences move in favour of the mothers.

BarleySweets · 23-05-2018 03:27PM

juanjo wrote: »

In support of his family? no. Sure didn't john paul visit a mosque? I think it's called respect.

Edit: Not only john paul.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pope-francis-prays-in-mosque-in-sign-of-commitment-to-christian-muslim-relations-1417282839

I wonder why pope francis is so respected by non believers.

Not anymore: did you not read about his coverups of child abusing bishops in Australia & Chile that got exposed this year?

PARlance · 23-05-2018 03:27PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

A very religious guy on here yesterday told us all that “you don’t need religion to know right from wrong”. So going by that, surely an atheist is perfectly capable of helping a child to live within the catholic faith?

Absolutely. Despite any of our feelings towards the Church itself, Catholic teachings are a fairly good guide to living a decent life. It's not rocket science.

nullzero · 23-05-2018 03:27PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

Since when do you think it’s acceptable to answer a question with a question?

When it's relevant.
Am I in trouble now?

Trasna1 · 23-05-2018 03:29PM

BarleySweets wrote: »

Oh god no. No, you’re not right in any of those lines there. What are you saying.

Trust? What I wrote showed the thinking here, if they “trust” a declaration of rape/incest, they know that in reality, women seeking abortions will lie. The legislation will force and encourage them to lie. Laws are not allowed to encourage people to lie. What kind of society do you want to see flourish here if you want us to accept that we should let politicians bring in legislation that encourages citizens to lie?

And don’t ask people to refer to Poland when you clearly know nothing about it. They’ve got the most restrictive regime in the EU that has been criticized by all and sundry for making it extremely difficult for women to access safe, legal abortion in Poland. But, like here, the Polish authorities don’t care because they can gloat about having one of the lowest rates in Europe (whereas really their abortions are being exported via their excellent land crossings to Germany, Russia etc. Polish women don’t go to a Polish doctor, by and large, in 2018. They hop onto a train and go to Germany or Russia.)

I can’t find your last post referencing it but can I ask you, why do you want to see the citizens assembly abolished?

I was responding to a point that Europe wouldn't allow such a system, where they do in Poland (granted it's often criticised).

I wouldn't say that it enough people to lie. The state has many laws and systems where lying brings more benefits than the truth - the social welfare system for example, and there are no calls to abolish that even though there is fraud.

I'd like to see the citizens assembly done away with since it's function was to serve as a political smokescreen. FG should have dealt with the issue head on and not outsourced consideration to an unelected body. Especially when you look at the other mental stuff they came up with on the environment.

spookwoman · 23-05-2018 03:31PM

nullzero wrote: »

Hang on. He's taken a clearly anti catholic stance and they asked him as a result to not take part in their ceremony, which is their right.
All the rolleyes and nonsense is irrelevant.

and I replied with and you shot me down

spookwoman wrote: »

So anyone that's an atheist should not attend family members and friends wedding and funerals are you for real?

I'll add to that is the atheist wife of a catholic husband not allowed to attend her husband catholic funeral? Is the atheist father of a catholic bride not allowed to give his daughter away on her wedding day. Is the atheist best man not allowed to stand as honor man.
"Love your neighbor as yourself.":rolleyes:

That's the last i will say as it's going off topic

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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