The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

circadian · 22-05-2018 01:21PM

....... wrote: »

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I think I'm seeing the peak now but I suspect there is a lot more to come. Yer man disrupting a Yes campaign meeting is probably just the beginning of some madcap stunts.

circadian · 22-05-2018 01:22PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I mean, I LIKE the moon but i'm not sure i'm ready to worship it.

I feel the same, but at least we know it exists.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-05-2018 01:22PM

DOS wrote: »

You fail to see the big picture. The reconversion of Europe to Christianity in the dark ages. The Catholic faith has survived penal laws, they had to pay a tax on glass (daylight robbery), priests banished, fathers to divide land among sons bar the eldest turned CoI, couldn't own a horse worth more than 5 pounds, no education, banned from jobs.. their faith survived.

It will survive a few anti religious like you too. Do you seriously think society would have been better off without Christianity? It's not perfect but far and away ahead of Paganism.

Where Tuam and abuses would be multiplied many fold.

Translated: what we did was bad but hey, it coulda been a lot worse :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali · 22-05-2018 01:23PM

DOS wrote: »

It will survive a few anti religious like you too.

I agree that Christianity would survive persecution and discrimination. Thrive, even.

I don't think it will survive boredom and apathy, though. The majority are not converting to some new religion, hostile to Christianity. They just don't care about the subject anymore, they have lost interest in religion, except as a cram-for-the-exam Leaving Cert points winner.

jibber5000 · 22-05-2018 01:23PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Very few on the No side are over 57? Really? What a whopper.

Plenty of activists on the Yes side over 57, for what it's worth!

Are you kidding me? You're twisting my argument.
It was in response to Una Mullally's comments where were the no side when babies were being put in septic tanks. It closed in 1961. If you'd bothered even looking into it the vast majority of what happened were in the 30s,40s. Typical yes side reponse

j8wk2feszrnpao · 22-05-2018 01:23PM

It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure how anyone can say the RCC is growing or on the come back.
I know two couples who had Communications this week, it might bthe first time they were in the church since the baptism, and won't be there again until Confirmation time.
There's a degree of culture remaining for Irish people towards the church; but it's dying big time. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest you are out of sync with the population.

Calina · 22-05-2018 01:27PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don't think my blood pressure can handle tonights debate. Considering not watching at all.

Well for years I have found twitter to be a useful lens through which to watch these things. I haven't seen Tubridy's face in years but the Late Lats hashtag is often entertaining.

weirdly though I have seen Crystal Swing mentioned on assorted related hashtags.

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 01:27PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure how anyone can say the RCC is growing or on the come back.
I know two couples who had Communications this week, it might bthe first time they were in the church since the baptism, and won't be there again until Confirmation time.
There's a degree of culture remaining for Irish people towards the church; but it's dying big time. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest you are out of sync with the population.

And there is the oh you'll get lots of money from the relatives. Funniest is the confirmation where they take the pledge and all go back to the house for the mums and dads to have a p*ss up.

Cupcake_Crisis · 22-05-2018 01:29PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It's a bit off topic, but I'm not sure how anyone can say the RCC is growing or on the come back.
I know two couples who had Communications this week, it might bthe first time they were in the church since the baptism, and won't be there again until Confirmation time.
There's a degree of culture remaining for Irish people towards the church; but it's dying big time. If you think otherwise, I'd suggest you are out of sync with the population.

Taking my niece as an example- she’s in an RCC school purely because she couldn’t get a place in an Educate Together school. She’s not been in a church since her christening, won’t be in one till her communion and it’ll just be going through the motions because there was no other choice.

A lot of my friends are of the very same mindset. I’d absolutely be of the same mindset myself. I’ll go to a church to avoid being rude.

Calina · 22-05-2018 01:31PM

DOS wrote: »

gmisk wrote: »

I think the era of slaughtering children for pagan gods is over....

"the rate was calculated by historians at 1 in 4. (Sound familiar)"
Subtle! - BTW Nope those poster say 1 in 5 and are BS.

Ah yeah you are right lets wipe the last 50 years, priests they are all a great bunch of lads.

You fail to see the big picture. The reconversion of Europe to Christianity in the dark ages. The Catholic faith has survived penal laws, they had to pay a tax on glass (daylight robbery), priests banished, fathers to divide land among sons bar the eldest turned CoI, couldn't own a horse worth more than 5 pounds, no education, banned from jobs.. their faith survived.

It will survive a few anti religious like you too. Do you seriously think society would have been better off without Christianity? It's not perfect but far and away ahead of Paganism.

Where Tuam and abuses would be multiplied many fold.

Tuam and general slut shaming of single mothers and Magdalene laundries and how society still treats women is a massive contributor to demand for abortion. You are trying to ban a need your religion is directly responsible for creating.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 22-05-2018 01:33PM

spookwoman wrote: »

And there is the oh you'll get lots of money from the relatives. Funniest is the confirmation where they take the pledge and all go back to the house for the mums and dads to have a p*ss up.

I wouldn't take the pledge and there was fierce disapproval! My reasoning was that I definitely wasn't going to be keeping it, so it'd be worse to make that pledge in front of God knowing I wasn't going to keep it than to not make it. Priest and teachers disagreed, the optics were bad :pac:

ohnonotgmail · 22-05-2018 01:35PM

Jonas Tangy Pantry wrote: »

I wouldn't take the pledge and there was fierce disapproval! My reasoning was that I definitely wasn't going to be keeping it, so it'd be worse to make that pledge in front of God knowing I wasn't going to keep it than to not make it. Priest and teachers disagreed, the optics were bad :pac:

isnt the pledge taken silently? it certainly was in my day.

kylith · 22-05-2018 01:36PM

DOS wrote: »

It will survive a few anti religious like you too. Do you seriously think society would have been better off without Christianity? It's not perfect but far and away ahead of Paganism.

Where Tuam and abuses would be multiplied many fold.

Christianity can survive anything, except reason.

Oh, and the Tuam horrors would have been unlikely in pagan times. Certainly under the pre-Christian Brehon laws not only did women have more freedom, but no distinction was made between legitimate and illegitimate children.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 22-05-2018 01:40PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

isnt the pledge taken silently? it certainly was in my day.

I tended to take things pretty seriously at that age, I'd have been the kind of kid to sit there and think at top volume about the fact that I wasn't taking it...

As far as I recall we had to go from our seats up to the front and there was some kind of blessing, and we'd all had to sign some kind of declaration at school previously, I wouldn't do either.

....... · 22-05-2018 01:43PM

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ohnonotgmail · 22-05-2018 01:46PM

....... wrote: »

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I thought it was symphysiotomies myself.

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 01:48PM

Jonas Tangy Pantry wrote: »

I tended to take things pretty seriously at that age, I'd have been the kind of kid to sit there and think at top volume about the fact that I wasn't taking it...

As far as I recall we had to go from our seats up to the front and there was some kind of blessing, and we'd all had to sign some kind of declaration at school previously, I wouldn't do either.

I was christened protestant but ended up in catholic schools because no other choice. Never made my confirmation was asked and said no because I didn't want to be a hypocrite. Like you was serious and got myself removed from religious classes because I questioned things like why people are not asked if they want to take the sacraments. Why cant they wait till they are adults to make up their own minds if they want to take up a religion.

Have had a few no people in here say its nothing to do with religion but we have had quite a few religious no voters come in here as well

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-05-2018 01:49PM

....... wrote: »

Was peak crazy not the enforced hysterectomies?

Or the Outercourse idea?

Rape rooms and rape committees were the top contenders before those.

....... · 22-05-2018 01:50PM

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....... · 22-05-2018 01:50PM

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amcalester · 22-05-2018 01:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I mean, I LIKE the moon but i'm not sure i'm ready to worship it.

I like the moon too, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-05-2018 01:52PM

amcalester wrote: »

I like the moon too, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

I like the moon, I also like to moon :pac:

DOS · 22-05-2018 01:59PM

kylith wrote: »

Christianity can survive anything, except reason.

Oh, and the Tuam horrors would have been unlikely in pagan times. Certainly under the pre-Christian Brehon laws not only did women have more freedom, but no distinction was made between legitimate and illegitimate children.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/did-the-ancient-celts-practice-human-sacrifice.amp

Hotblack Desiato · 22-05-2018 02:00PM

jibber5000 wrote: »

Are you kidding me? You're twisting my argument.
It was in response to Una Mullally's comments where were the no side when babies were being put in septic tanks. It closed in 1961. If you'd bothered even looking into it the vast majority of what happened were in the 30s,40s. Typical yes side reponse

I know what she wrote. I was responding to what YOU wrote, which was "Tuam closed down in 1961 when very few on the no side were alive." It's clearly not the case. If you meant something else then perhaps clarify.

Only 2 or 3 years ago Catherine Corless was attacked and vilified by the conservative catholic right for exposing the truth, called a liar and all sorts, this is the same conservative catholic right which is behind the No campaign. To them, the reputation and power of the catholic church is more important than anything else, including the welfare or even lives of born women and children.

ohnonotgmail · 22-05-2018 02:02PM

DOS wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/did-the-ancient-celts-practice-human-sacrifice.amp

so what? are you trying to show that the church somehow saved us?

Timberrrrrrrr · 22-05-2018 02:05PM

DOS wrote: »

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/did-the-ancient-celts-practice-human-sacrifice.amp

And Christians drowned innocent women believing them to be witches.....whats your point?

DOS · 22-05-2018 02:06PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Even as an atheist of 40 years standing, I still toddle along to a family anniversary mass or whatever now and again. I'd guess attendance in our old parish Church in Dublin is at about 10% of what it was 40 years ago.

As for the Church of Ireland, I'd be delighted if they made a comeback to stand as a relatively tolerant example of Christianity beside the Catholic Hierarchy. One would think that the people running away from the Catholic Church because of recent scandals might find a home there, but perhaps they are embarrassed that they can't sing hymns.

Of course, the CoI were against the 8th back in 1983 since it is the old Catholic Hospital ethos made law, something the CoI have tried to avoid since the foundation of the state with their Protestant ethos maternity hospitals.

Looks like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics have equal percentages against abortion going by this US graphic.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/%3famp=1

spookwoman · 22-05-2018 02:09PM

DOS wrote: »

Looks like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics have equal percentages against abortion going by this US graphic.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/%3famp=1

A recent survey found that just 66 percent of young adults aged 18 to 24 years old have "always believed the world is round." in the states....... :rolleyes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/04/04/only-two-thirds-of-american-millennials-believe-the-earth-is-round/#28cdc70f7ec6

DOS · 22-05-2018 02:11PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so what? are you trying to show that the church somehow saved us?

My point is human and child sacrifice was much higher in pagan times. Christianity greatly reduced such deaths.

Your John Lennon utopia of no religion will have serious abuses too.

Church scandals need to be separated from Christian teaching which is of benefit to mankind.

'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength. You must love your neighbour as yourself'. What a powerful message!

SusieBlue · 22-05-2018 02:13PM

I abhor everything the church stands for in this country. It has ruined the lives of an untold amount of people.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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