The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Went from 5 to 375 abortion pills seized in England in 2016, how many got through to their destination?
It is a growing problem, legality doesn't stop illegality which is what the Yes side maintain it would do which is a blatant lie.

and a source?

Cantona's Collars

The wife just saw on her newsfeed that an investigation is underway in Waterford after the body of a newborn was left in a doctor's surgery.
There's a dillema for the love both/no campaign.
Would that woman have been better off having an early abortion than going full term and leaving the body of a dead baby in a doctor's surgery?

RobertKK

gmisk wrote: »

She is just delighted there wont be a fact check at the end of the show.


I am surprised the no side didnt go with maria steen, but I suppose they cant have her on every show.

Hopefully Miriam keeps things a tad more calm and measured than Claire Byrne did!

I am not saying if it is true or not, but it was a rumour last week that Simon Harris didn't want to debate her, and it was a demand that Maria Steen be not present if Simon Harris was to appear on PT.

Monkey09

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--Xqnf8I

Medical abortion can only take place up to 9 weeks. After that stage, the above procedure is required.

amcalester

RobertKK wrote: »

Went from 5 to 375 abortion pills seized in England in 2016, how many got through to their destination?
It is a growing problem, legality doesn't stop illegality which is what the Yes side maintain it would do which is a blatant lie.

How many were sent/ordered?

Seizures are irrelevant.

DOS

gctest50 wrote: »

UHG should have got him around to put on a little show for Savita - take her mind off the dying needlessly thing

Why do the Yes side use one woman's tragic death with impunity to argue?

Why aren't people honest? They say 'say that to Savita as if she was a partner, sister of theirs. By the amount of times her name is used you would be led to believe that half the posters here don't sleep at night because of her death?

If Savita hadn't tragically died no doubt some other young woman's name would be used unashamedly.

I can just imagine that weasel Simon Harris, with his long forlorn face, name drop her, appearing tearful, multiple times tonight. Hypocrisy.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and a source?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2868679/rising-number-of-desperate-women-are-buying-illegal-abortion-pills-online-charity-warns/

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Went from 5 to 375 abortion pills seized in England in 2016, how many got through to their destination?
It is a growing problem, legality doesn't stop illegality which is what the Yes side maintain it would do which is a blatant lie.

i assume you are referring to this article

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38960437

I presume you read past just the bare numbers? Making something legal does not make it easy to access. Hopefully we can do things a bit better than britain does.

RobertKK

amcalester wrote: »

How many were sent/ordered?

Seizures are irrelevant.

I am not involved in the illegal trade to know these things, I don't have an order book to check...

January

Rumour. Wonder who put that out there...

January

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--Xqnf8I

Medical abortion can only take place up to 9 weeks. After that stage, the above procedure is required.

Not true, medical abortion can be done up to 12 weeks, which is 10 weeks gestation when you count from the first day of the last period a woman has had.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2868679/rising-number-of-desperate-women-are-buying-illegal-abortion-pills-online-charity-warns/

People do terrible things when they are desperate. But it would be beneath you of course to try and score a point from the suffering of others.

One woman wrote: "I've just found out I'm pregnant and I can't keep the baby, can you tell me if I can get the tablets from you please.
"I am in the UK but it's impossible for me to get to a clinic due to having a disabled daughter who I can't leave and I have no one else I can trust.
"I'm in a complete mess, clinics said I have to leave my daughter at home but I have no one else at all to have her, due to her disabilities a nursery can't have her. I'm one week late.
"I'm in good health and have no allergies or medical conditions. Please I'm really desperate for help."
Another said: "I live in [a rural area in England] and have no friends and the relatives I have I am not close to.
"I was hoping to have a termination in the comfort of my own home without judgemental eyes and without worrying about my husband knowing.
"I fear what would happen if he did. I have three children and my third is 11 months old. I considered an abortion when he was conceived and had a terrible pregnancy and still suffering from post-natal depression.
"I will try to seek help, anonymously if possible. I'm in great need of help."

gctest50

DOS wrote: »

Just to inform you Spike died in 2002.

You know what i meant


Should we follow his example ? :

SPIKE MILLIGAN was not very good at monogamy. His married life was punctuated by affairs that resulted in two illegitimate children to add to the four from his three wives.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1386282/Three-wives-six-children-and-a-lifetime-of-infidelity.html

DOS

Dressing gown wrote: »

You presume to do so. Assuming the mother is not forced to keep the child as well, if all of those children were not aborted, they would not all be adopted. The majority would go into care and probably have a pretty crappy life. Who are you to say they would all be delighted with their lives? If my mother had an opportunity to have the family size she wanted I’d be delighted for her. She would have had a much easier life. I wouldn’t be here but I wouldn’t know any different. And I have a good life. It should have been my mothers choice. So you don’t speak for me. No doubt I’m not alone.

The argument has been used that the country couldn't cope with the extra births. Even if many had to emigrate when they grew up I still believe their lives are worth saving before birth.

Timberrrrrrrr

DOS wrote: »

No harm to post the anti abortion views of renowned people, past and present.

Spike Milligan, comic genius.

http://www.colingunn.com/blog/2016/4/8/spike-milligans-astonishing-poem-about-abortion-endabortionnow

No harm to post the pro choice views of renowned people, past and present.

The emphasis must be not on the right to abortion but on the right to privacy and reproductive control.
—Ruth Bader Ginsburg

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
—Florynce Kennedy

No woman wants an abortion as she wants an ice cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal caught in a trap wants to gnaw off its own leg.
—Frederica Mathewes-Green

In 1985, I was living with my sister in Virginia, and since I was still in high school, I worked at McDonald’s to save money to get an abortion. It sounds really terrible, but it was the best decision I ever made. It was the first time I took responsibility for my actions. I messed up, had sex without contraception, and got pregnant at 15.
—Kathleen Hanna

You cannot have maternal health without reproductive health. And reproductive health includes contraception and family planning and access to legal, safe abortion.
—Hillary Clinton

The issue is not abortion. The issue is whether women can make up their own mind instead of some right-wing pastor, some right-wing politician telling them what to do.
—Howard Dean

If every woman who’s had an abortion took tomorrow off in protest, America would grind to a halt. And that would be symbolic: because women grind to a halt if they are not in control of their fertility.
—Caitlin Moran


And my personal favourite

If the anti-abortion movement took a tenth of the energy they put into noisy theatrics and devoted it to improving the lives of children who have been born into lives of poverty, violence, and neglect, they could make a world shine.
—Michael Jay Tucker

ohnonotgmail

DOS wrote: »

Why do the Yes side use one woman's tragic death with impunity to argue?

Why aren't people honest? They say 'say that to Savita as if she was a partner, sister of theirs. By the amount of times her name is used you would be led to believe that half the posters here don't sleep at night because of her death?

If Savita hadn't tragically died no doubt some other young woman's name would be used unashamedly.

I can just imagine that weasel Simon Harris, with his long forlorn face, name drop her, appearing tearful, multiple times tonight. Hypocrisy.

They do so because her parents have asked them to. Her parents dont want the same thing to happen to somebody else. That is compassion.

SusieBlue

DOS wrote: »

The argument has been used that the country couldn't cope with the extra births. Even if many had to emigrate when they grew up I still believe their lives are worth saving before birth.

You can't proudly declare you are "saving lives" when you don't give a rats ass what kind of lives and circumstances these kids are being born into.
Saving lives, but no consideration for the actual LIFE the child will have.

DOS

gctest50 wrote: »

You know what i meant


Should we follow his example ? :

Illegitimate children. How can you name a child so?

All children are equal. A 1950s attitude.

ohnonotgmail

DOS wrote: »

The argument has been used that the country couldn't cope with the extra births. Even if many had to emigrate when they grew up I still believe their lives are worth saving before birth.

That argument has not been used by anybody here. You are arguing against shadows.

DOS

SusieBlue wrote: »

You can't proudly declare you are "saving lives" when you don't give a rats ass what kind of lives and circumstances these kids are being born into.
Saving lives, but no consideration for the actual LIFE the child will have.

I do care. You can't determine how anyone's life will develop, even if born in poverty, alcoholic parents etc.

Many great people had hard upbringings.

DOS

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

That argument has not been used by anybody here. You are arguing against shadows.

It was made one evening. I'm sure you missed a few posts. Like us all.

Calina

January wrote: »

Rumour. Wonder who put that out there...

Guess.

https://twitter.com/john_mcguirk/status/996779823371575299?s=20

amcalester

RobertKK wrote: »

I am not involved in the illegal trade to know these things, I don't have an order book to check...

But you said it was a growing problem.

Where’s the evidence that the number of women illegally ordering these pills is growing?

SusieBlue

DOS wrote: »

I do care. You can't determine how anyone's life will develop, even if born in poverty, alcoholic parents etc.

Many great people had hard upbringings.

And many people had truly horrific ones.

If a woman says she cannot offer a child a stable, loving, nurturing upbringing, I believe her. And I see no logic in forcing her to have a child she doesn't want, just to uphold someone else's moral beliefs.
Its in no ones best interests to force the alternative. Certainly not the innocent baby's.

RobertKK

So TV3 using the Journal.ie as a fact checker and the same owners as boards, Boards who currently are advertising Vote Yes with a together for Yes ad....

Zubeneschamali

DOS wrote: »

I can just imagine that weasel Simon Harris, with his long forlorn face, name drop her, appearing tearful, multiple times tonight. Hypocrisy.

How is it hypocrisy - if we had repealed the 8th 10 years ago, Savita would be alive today.

Dressing gown

DOS wrote: »

The argument has been used that the country couldn't cope with the extra births. Even if many had to emigrate when they grew up I still believe their lives are worth saving before birth.

You’ve dodged the main point which is you presume to speak for the unborn. You cannot presume to know it’s wishes.

Well answer me this. If your mother had not wanted to continue her pregnancy when you were conceived, would you have wanted her to have been forced to carry you? This is a philosophical question not a dig at you as a person. My answer to the question is I would not have wanted my mum to have been forced to carry me.

gctest50

RobertKK wrote: »

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2868679/rising-number-of-desperate-women-are-buying-illegal-abortion-pills-online-charity-warns/

and right there in the middle :

Ann Furedi, chief executive of Bpas, said: "At Bpas, we do all that we can to make abortion services as accessible as possible. However, it is clear that for some women the barriers to clinic-based treatment feel insurmountable.

The answer seems to eliminate ( reduce as far as possible ) the perceived or real barriers to clinic-based treatment

ohnonotgmail

DOS wrote: »

It was made one evening. I'm sure you missed a few posts. Like us all.

That would be a terrible coincidence considering i have probably posted nearly every day on all of the 4 threads so far.

DOS

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

How is it hypocrisy - if we had repealed the 8th 10 years ago, Savita would be alive today.

Hypocrisy in the feigned sadness and name dropping at every opportunity.

I believe Leo Varadkar, he of the PR opportunity at any cost, ask Una McMathuna, organised Savita's parents to go public with Yes support the Sunday before the referendum for maximum effect.