The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Calina

DOS wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Even as an atheist of 40 years standing, I still toddle along to a family anniversary mass or whatever now and again. I'd guess attendance in our old parish Church in Dublin is at about 10% of what it was 40 years ago.

As for the Church of Ireland, I'd be delighted if they made a comeback to stand as a relatively tolerant example of Christianity beside the Catholic Hierarchy. One would think that the people running away from the Catholic Church because of recent scandals might find a home there, but perhaps they are embarrassed that they can't sing hymns.

Of course, the CoI were against the 8th back in 1983 since it is the old Catholic Hospital ethos made law, something the CoI have tried to avoid since the foundation of the state with their Protestant ethos maternity hospitals.

Looks like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics have equal percentages against abortion going by this US graphic.

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/22/american-religious-groups-vary-widely-in-their-views-of-abortion/%3famp=1

So what? This vote is taking place in Ireland. The US has a shedload of people who believe in a divine right to carry serious weaponry around and Ireland doesn't. The cultures are very different.

ohnonotgmail

DOS wrote: »

My point is human and child sacrifice was much higher in pagan times. Christianity greatly reduced such deaths.

Your John Lennon utopia of no religion will have serious abuses too.

Church scandals need to be separated from Christian teaching which is of benefit to mankind.

'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength. You must love your neighbour as yourself'. What a powerful message!

Are you describing what happened in Tuam as child sacrifice?

DOS

spookwoman wrote: »

A recent survey found that just 66 percent of young adults aged 18 to 24 years old have "always believed the world is round." in the states....... :rolleyes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/04/04/only-two-thirds-of-american-millennials-believe-the-earth-is-round/#28cdc70f7ec6

You'd probably get the same percentages here! A girl friend of mine with a Masters thought Australia was in Europe when chatting a few days ago! And by the way she's an atheist from Foxrock with a TCD education.

Monkey09

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--Xqnf8I

Please consider voting no!

freshpopcorn

joe40 wrote: »

Is everyone meeting with canvassers, at home or on the streets.
I haven't had a single caller to my house, or met anyone on a street giving out leaflets. Apart from posters nothing else promoting either side.
Is this unusual?

Nobody around here either but once your any bit outside town I find they don't bother you!

DOS

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Are you describing what happened in Tuam as child sacrifice?

That's a rather strange conclusion to make?

It was a despicable event.

I'm pointing out how Christianity was a progression from Paganism and how post Christian Ireland won't be perfect either.

Bridge93

It won't be perfect no, but it will be another progression.

Calina

DOS wrote: »

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so what? are you trying to show that the church somehow saved us?

My point is human and child sacrifice was much higher in pagan times. Christianity greatly reduced such deaths.

Your John Lennon utopia of no religion will have serious abuses too.

Church scandals need to be separated from Christian teaching which is of benefit to mankind.

'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength. You must love your neighbour as yourself'. What a powerful message!

You must. Someone has to coerce you.

For some of us, we do not need a bible commandment tell8ng us to do right by people and if the Christian message matters to you you would abhor the Catholic Church and all it stands for.

ohnonotgmail

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--Xqnf8I

Please consider voting no!

Clearly you haven't a clue what actually happens. your video shows a surgical abortion. At 10-12 weeks a medical abortion will be carried out.

DOS

Bridge93 wrote: »

It won't be perfect no, but it will be another progression.

How do you know that? Early indications show community breaks down, commercialism takes over, suicide rates rise?

Dressing gown

Here’s the irony of this referendum campaign;

you may not accept the ‘my body my choice’ argument from the yes side,

but if you vote no, you are effectively making the choice for the women of this country.

gctest50

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--XqnfI

Please consider voting no!

gmisk

SusieBlue wrote: »

I abhor everything the church stands for in this country. It has ruined the lives of an untold amount of people.

I tend to agree with you to a point.



My sister is fairly religious still, her husband and the kids go to mass regularly and the place they go has a lovely vibe and a really nice social and warm side to it.
I have also met some absolutely fantastic priests over the years (I went to RC school - and my cousin is training to be a priest...he is a really lovely guy), really decent hard working, compassionate people, who care deeply about their parishioners.


So IMO there are some fantastic, decent, truly christian people involved in the RCC in Ireland, but the organisation as a whole, is unfortunately pretty rotten.

ohnonotgmail

DOS wrote: »

That's a rather strange conclusion to make?

It was a despicable event.

I'm pointing out how Christianity was a progression from Paganism and how post Christian Ireland won't be perfect either.

Post christian ireland wont be perfect. what society is? It will be significantly better though.

Calina

Dressing gown wrote: »

Here’s the irony of this referendum campaign;

you may not accept the ‘my body my choice’ argument from the yes side,

but if you vote no, you are effectively making the choice for the women of this country.

It is not ironic. It is the heart of things. Women are to be controlled.

Timberrrrrrrr

DOS wrote: »

My point is human and child sacrifice was much higher in pagan times. Christianity greatly reduced such deaths.

Your John Lennon utopia of no religion will have serious abuses too.

Church scandals need to be separated from Christian teaching which is of benefit to mankind.

'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength. You must love your neighbour as yourself'. What a powerful message!

From the same book

All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. 

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. 

He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. 

Not all hugs and happiness and plenty of killing

Leroy42

Monkey09 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=boz--Xqnf8I

Please consider voting no!

I have and the alternative is worse.

You seem to think that this medical procedure (although as others have pointed out does not reflect a 10 - 12 week abortion) is horrible, but is it worse than a woman having to endure hours of pain and distress with the potential that she could die.

Is it just so you don't have to think about the squemish stuff that puts you off? Many medical procedures look terrible but we understand that that are required in order to help the overall health.

Have you ever seen an amputation? It pretty grishly but is required in many instances to save someones life.

DOS

Calina wrote: »

You must. Someone has to coerce you.

For some of us, we do not need a bible commandment tell8ng us to do right by people and if the Christian message matters to you you would abhor the Catholic Church and all it stands for.

You ignore all the good the churches have done in education, supporting people at key times like family deaths, developing a moral outlook in young people, offering forgiveness and counselling, developing community over individualism, working with prisoners, working for human rights, the RC helped bring about the demise of USSR communism, working for famine and humanitarian relief like in Biafra, preaching the gospel and the Beatitudes, giving people hope, working with the homeless like From. Peter McVerry etc etc. Nothing is all good or all bad.

DOS

Dressing gown wrote: »

Here’s the irony of this referendum campaign;

you may not accept the ‘my body my choice’ argument from the yes side,

but if you vote no, you are effectively making the choice for the women of this country.

And you give voice to the thousands of unborn.

RobertKK

gctest50 wrote: »

At least legal cigarettes stopped people buying illegal cigarettes...the same will obviously work if the 8th is repealed....

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0315/947678-cigarettes-gardai-meath/

An illegal cigarette production factory, capable of producing 250,000 cigarettes an hour has been discovered in Jenkinstown, Co Louth.

Eleven people from eastern Europe, including Bulgaria and Romania and aged in their late 20s to late 50s, have been arrested and are being questioned at garda stations in Co Louth.

It is the first time such a facility has been discovered in the State.

Customs officials said 25 million illegal cigarettes, branded Mayfair, were discovered, along with more than 40 tonnes of tobacco.

Lets legalise cigarettes to put an end to this...

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

At least legal cigarettes stopped people buying illegal cigarettes...the same will obviously work if the 8th is repealed....

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0315/947678-cigarettes-gardai-meath/



Lets legalise cigarettes to put an end to this...

Good job on completely missing the point. Illegal cigarettes are available because of high government taxes on cigarettes making it profitable to smuggle untaxed cigarettes. there are no such taxes on medications. SO why go to the trouble of illegally importing something when you can get it here legally?

gmisk

RobertKK wrote: »

At least legal cigarettes stopped people buying illegal cigarettes...the same will obviously work if the 8th is repealed....

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0315/947678-cigarettes-gardai-meath/



Lets legalise cigarettes to put an end to this...

Oh come on...cigarettes are in no way comparable and you know it.
It is actually pretty insulting, but I think you know that.



People buy illegal cigarettes due to cost, nothing else.

DOS

Anyone know who are on the respective sides on Prime Time tonight?

It could be a very important point in the referendum.

Zubeneschamali

DOS wrote: »

Looks like Lutherans, Presbyterians, Catholics have equal percentages against abortion going by this US graphic.

The CoI was against the 8th in 1983 - that does not mean they were pro-abortion. Abortion was already illegal at the time.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Good job on completely missing the point. Illegal cigarettes are available because of high government taxes on cigarettes making it profitable to smuggle untaxed cigarettes. there are no such taxes on medications. SO why go to the trouble of illegally importing something when you can get it here legally?

Ask that to the people in countries where the abortion pill is legal and it is still being bought illegally.

Zubeneschamali

DOS wrote: »

'You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and all your strength. You must love your neighbour as yourself'. What a powerful message!

The message I'm getting is "FFS Vote Yes!".

Calina

DOS wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

You must. Someone has to coerce you.

For some of us, we do not need a bible commandment tell8ng us to do right by people and if the Christian message matters to you you would abhor the Catholic Church and all it stands for.

You ignore all the good the churches have done in education, supporting people at key times like family deaths, developing a moral outlook in young people, offering forgiveness and counselling, developing community over individualism, working with prisoners, working for human rights, the RC helped bring about the demise of USSR communism, working for famine and humanitarian relief like in Biafra, preaching the gospel and the Beatitudes, giving people hope, working with the homeless like From. Peter McVerry etc etc. Nothing is all good or all bad.

Right now the Church is campaigning to ensure women do not have the right to autonomy in their healthcare. The Catholic Church does not have the right to claim any sort of moral authority and nor is it necessary to create a moral framework for young people. I have to point out that the Catholic Church is an extremely wealthy religion, even in Ireland so while individual efforts by people like Sr Stan and Fr McVerry are laudable, they are a credit to the individuals and not to the Catholic Church. As for offering forgiveness, it is the kind of forgiveness that does not protect abused children. The USSR was on its way to bankruptcy and I despised JPII anyway.

People who are Catholics have done good things but the hierarchy serves to protect itself.

gmisk

DOS wrote: »

Anyone know who are on the respective sides on Prime Time tonight?

It could be a very important point in the referendum.

Yes side
TD Simon Harris
Professor Mary Higgins, consultant obstetrician and a member of the Together for Yes campaign.



No side
Cora Sherlock of the Love Both group
Sinn Féin TD Peadar Tóibín.

ohnonotgmail

RobertKK wrote: »

Ask that to the people in countries where the abortion pill is legal and it is still being bought illegally.

you have some proof of this of course?

amcalester

RobertKK wrote: »

At least legal cigarettes stopped people buying illegal cigarettes...the same will obviously work if the 8th is repealed....

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0315/947678-cigarettes-gardai-meath/



Lets legalise cigarettes to put an end to this...

You know quite well that it is the high tax on cigarettes that causes the demand for illegal ones.

Not really comparable Robert.