The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

DOS

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The CoI was against the 8th in 1983 - that does not mean they were pro-abortion. Abortion was already illegal at the time.

They've changed their stance this time. Obviously they believe the 8th works well in protecting the unborn.

RobertKK

DOS wrote: »

Anyone know who are on the respective sides on Prime Time tonight?

It could be a very important point in the referendum.

For the No side:
Peadar Toibin
Cora Sherlock

For the Yes side:
Simon Harris
Mary Higgins

RobertKK

amcalester wrote: »

You know quite well that it is the high tax on cigarettes that causes the demand for illegal ones.

Not really comparable Robert.

Cigarettes kill about 1 in 2 smokers
Abortion pills kill the unborn.

They all have illegal trading in them going on.

Neyite

Awks.

amcalester

DOS wrote: »

They've changed their stance this time. Obviously they believe the 8th works well in protecting the unborn.

It hasn’t protected the unborn or the woman carrying the unborn.

What it did was legalize abortion in Ireland and indirectly led to women being granted a constitutional right to travel for abortion and/or gain information on abortion.

Not to mention all those women forced to travel abroad to receive healthcare.

And to top it off it had led to the deaths of women.

Timberrrrrrrr

RobertKK wrote: »

Cigarettes kill about 1 in 2 smokers
Abortion pills kill the unborn.

They all have illegal trading in them going on.

Yet you don't campaign to stop cig sales.

Calina

DOS wrote: »

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The CoI was against the 8th in 1983 - that does not mean they were pro-abortion. Abortion was already illegal at the time.

They've changed their stance this time. Obviously they believe the 8th works well in protecting the unborn.

It does not. Between three and five thousand women resident in Ireland have abortions every year.

Zubeneschamali

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you have some proof of this of course?

I imagine this is the story about folks who live in remote locations who find it hard to access services and resort to ordering off the internet at home because it is easier.

I seem to remember stories from rural England to that effect.

amcalester

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yet you don't campaign to stop cig sales.

Why would he? It’s a personal choice whether someone smokes or not, what’s it got to with Rob... oh wait

DOS

No harm to post the anti abortion views of renowned people, past and present.

Spike Milligan, comic genius.

http://www.colingunn.com/blog/2016/4/8/spike-milligans-astonishing-poem-about-abortion-endabortionnow

Calina

RobertKK wrote: »

amcalester wrote: »

You know quite well that it is the high tax on cigarettes that causes the demand for illegal ones.

Not really comparable Robert.

Cigarettes kill about 1 in 2 smokers
Abortion pills kill the unborn.

They all have illegal trading in them going on.

You sound awfully well up in the illegal trade of cigarettes and abortion pills. Do you trade in both?

Zubeneschamali

DOS wrote: »

They've changed their stance this time. Obviously they believe the 8th works well in protecting the unborn.

Actually, I think they do want it amended, and their big problem is with the 12 week proposal.

Although it is true that the present provision under the Constitution has proved less than satisfactory in some respects, and we suggested the possibility of a modification to the present Constitutional position, what is now being proposed by the Government – if the Article is repealed – is unrestricted access to abortion up to twelve weeks of pregnancy.

‘As we have said before (in our statement of 5th February – and we also refer to the wider comments made in that statement about the need for pastoral care for women, their partners and their families, and for improved support services and greater investment in medical and mental health services), unrestricted access to abortion in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, or indeed at any stage, is not an ethical position we can accept.

gmisk

Calina wrote: »

You sound awfully well up in the illegal trade of cigarettes and abortion pills. Do you trade in both?

Id say he is down on moore street at the weekend selling the baccy alright

gmisk

DOS wrote: »

No harm to post the anti abortion views of renowned people, past and present.

Spike Milligan, comic genius.

http://www.colingunn.com/blog/2016/4/8/spike-milligans-astonishing-poem-about-abortion-endabortionnow

Dont forget the daft mum from Crystal Swing!
Now she is a comic genius!

DOS

Calina wrote: »

It does not. Between three and five thousand women resident in Ireland have abortions every year.

You cannot argue that the figure wouldn't be considerably higher without the 8th. Easy access results in quicker decisions being made about an unwanted pregnancy. The 8th has stopped many traveling as many women have testified.

Cantona's Collars

Cora Sherlock on the TV debate tonight, I wonder how many questions will she avoid answering this time?

kylith

DOS wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

Christianity can survive anything, except reason.

Oh, and the Tuam horrors would have been unlikely in pagan times. Certainly under the pre-Christian Brehon laws not only did women have more freedom, but no distinction was made between legitimate and illegitimate children.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/did-the-ancient-celts-practice-human-sacrifice.amp

So did the Jews. there’s a whole bible story about how great it is that some guy is going to murder his son for god, no questions asked.

gmisk

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

Cora Sherlock on the TV debate tonight, I wonder how many questions will she avoid answering this time?

She is just delighted there wont be a fact check at the end of the show.


I am surprised the no side didnt go with maria steen, but I suppose they cant have her on every show.

Hopefully Miriam keeps things a tad more calm and measured than Claire Byrne did!

DOS

gmisk wrote: »

Dont forget the daft mum from Crystal Swing!
Now she is a comic genius!

I think you'll find Spike more well known, internationally too I for one never heard of the lady you speak of. Have seen Crystal Swing on tv maybe once.

gctest50

DOS wrote: »

No harm to post the anti abortion views of renowned people, past and present.

Spike Milligan, comic genius.

http://www.colingunn.com/blog/2016/4/8/spike-milligans-astonishing-poem-about-abortion-endabortionnow

DOS wrote: »

...,.........

Spike Milligan, comic genius.

UHG should have got him around to put on a little show for Savita - take her mind off the dying needlessly thing

DOS

kylith wrote: »

So did the Jews. there’s a whole bible story about how great it is that some guy is going to murder his son for god, no questions asked.

God saved Issac iirc

juanjo

DOS wrote: »

You ignore all the good the churches have done in education, supporting people at key times like family deaths, developing a moral outlook in young people, offering forgiveness and counselling, developing community over individualism, working with prisoners, working for human rights, the RC helped bring about the demise of USSR communism, working for famine and humanitarian relief like in Biafra, preaching the gospel and the Beatitudes, giving people hope, working with the homeless like From. Peter McVerry etc etc. Nothing is all good or all bad.

Wahat about supporting disctatorships? what about robbing babies from healthy mothers in hospitals to sell them to wealthy, infertile couples?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2049647/BBC-documentary-exposes-50-year-scandal-baby-trafficking-Catholic-church-Spain.html

ancapailldorcha

I outlined my thoughts on this in a previous post but I thought I would leave my last words before my holiday.

Frankly, this debate has stirred up appaling levels of hated and bile which have come almost entirely from people on the “No” side. What’s really shocking is the sheer mental gymnastics involved in maintaining that position, namely the contrast between the absurd “Love Both” slogan and the sheer amount of bile being heaped at women, especially those in poverty or who have disabled children and how dare they expect any sort of help from the state. Should No pass, no doubt we’ll be hearing again about how kids with Down Syndrome should have made better life choices and something about pulling and bootstraps. And then there is the No campaign who seem to regard honesty and decency as, at best luxuries and, at worst hindrances.
.
I was raised in a Conservative Christian household and I’m well aware that many people sincerely equate abortion with killing a baby and will vote No for that reason. It’s got nothing to do with hatred for these people. I was specifically referring to the hate-filled brigade which seems ever more determined to shut down discussion and spout the same bilious drivel over and over and over again. Love Both? Misogyny on parade, more like.
The main thing I want to say is that people really need to get out and vote on this, even if it is no as this referendum is a huge event in modern Irish history and could be a huge opportunity for Irish women to enjoy the same status as their counterparts elsewhere in the West.

I probably won’t be able to respond to this but I wanted to pop in a last few thoughts.

Calina

DOS wrote: »

Calina wrote: »

It does not. Between three and five thousand women resident in Ireland have abortions every year.

You cannot argue that the figure wouldn't be considerably higher without the 8th. Easy access results in quicker decisions being made about an unwanted pregnancy. The 8th has stopped many traveling as many women have testified.

I didn't argue it. But for a piece legislation that is supposed to be saving unborn lives, it is an abject failure.

DOS

gctest50 wrote: »

UHG should have got him around to put on a little show for Savita - take her mind off the dying needlessly thing

Just to inform you Spike died in 2002.

RobertKK

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you have some proof of this of course?

Went from 5 to 375 abortion pills seized in England in 2016, how many got through to their destination?
It is a growing problem, legality doesn't stop illegality which is what the Yes side maintain it would do which is a blatant lie.

Dressing gown

DOS wrote: »

And you give voice to the thousands of unborn.

You presume to do so. Assuming the mother is not forced to keep the child as well, if all of those children were not aborted, they would not all be adopted. The majority would go into care and probably have a pretty crappy life. Who are you to say they would all be delighted with their lives? If my mother had an opportunity to have the family size she wanted I’d be delighted for her. She would have had a much easier life. I wouldn’t be here but I wouldn’t know any different. And I have a good life. It should have been my mothers choice. So you don’t speak for me. No doubt I’m not alone.

Zubeneschamali

gmisk wrote: »

Hopefully Miriam keeps things a tad more calm and measured than Claire Byrne did!

I'll be quite happy if the no supporters make a holy show of themselves again. It's not as if the debaters will make any new points, even if they are master debaters.

(Sorry, I'll set Sir Wanksalot off again with that talk!)

Ash.J.Williams

DOS wrote: »

You cannot argue that the figure wouldn't be considerably higher without the 8th. Easy access results in quicker decisions being made about an unwanted pregnancy. The 8th has stopped many traveling as many women have testified.

Is that good?

Cantona's Collars

gmisk wrote: »

She is just delighted there wont be a fact check at the end of the show.


I am surprised the no side didnt go with maria steen, but I suppose they cant have her on every show.

Hopefully Miriam keeps things a tad more calm and measured than Claire Byrne did!

Fact checking doesn't matter to her.Shes so entrenched in her views that actual transcripts and evidence from cases are described as nonsense and lies.