DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

Joeseph Balls · 15-05-2018 09:33AM

Kellygirl wrote: »

If you are listening to music and having trouble slowing down maybe get rid of the music so you can concentrate on the slow pace.

No, never listen to music out running. Like to be fully aware of others and traffic.
I think it's just I'm that used to 5 and 10k pace I have to break the routine is all.

ariana` · 15-05-2018 09:45AM

Griff75 wrote: »

Going to bite the bullet and sign up for this too! Time is an issue for me as I’m self employed with a young family so apologies in advance if I don’t update much!

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
Have done two marathons in 2012 and 2013. PB is 4.05 but more recent race times are
Raheny 5 mile 2018 37.24
10 mile 2017 1.22
10k 2017 47.28

Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? (No problem if you do)
No

How much training do you currently do ? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant to your current fitness level.
I run 3 days a week at the moment and strength train at lunchtime around 4 times a week. Longest run since last year is 12k but plan to increase that slowly.

What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time? Or just complete it in no specified time?
Will aim for sub 4 but enjoying the day is a priority too.

How many days a week can you train?
4-5 although 2 of those would need to be on a treadmill at lunchtime so time is limited.

And what plan do you intend to follow?
Willing to be guided on this. Have done HH in the past.

What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up?
Injury or a bad day on the day itself

Why are you running this marathon?
I will be asking myself that question from now until the finish line!

LOL at this :pac: FYI, I asked myself that on most of the long runs last year but actually on the day itself it didn't enter my head, it was such an amazing experience, and i sincerely hope it is the same for all of this year's novices

Griff i think you'll be well able for the Boards plan. It's a slight step up from HH and having done HH before and having 2 marathons behind you already i think it will suit you.

ariana` · 15-05-2018 09:46AM

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

No, never listen to music out running. Like to be fully aware of others and traffic.
I think it's just I'm that used to 5 and 10k pace I have to break the routine is all.

Do you wear a running watch - can set the pace alerts so it reminds you when you're speeding up? It's annoying at first but soon you will be able to dial into the desired pace.

ariana` · 15-05-2018 09:53AM

Rossi7 wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm planning on doing my LSR tonight and I was wondering having done all my training so far in k's would I be best to change over my garmin to miles now and get use to pacing myself in miles rather than k's
Also skyblue46, what pace should I look to do my LSR tonight per k, sorry to ask you but I know you've seen my training on Strava. Looking to do 16k very slow

Hi Rossi. I trained in KM last year and i still do. Personally, i would stick to what you're used to or it could get confusing for you? It's personal choice really. S should be along soon to advise you but the Boards plan was designed with the McMillan calculator for paces so if you plug one of your 2 recent race times into that it will give you training paces. Your felt your Terenure time was conservative right and that was 4:40 min/km, i'd say you should be doing easy runs in the region of 6:00 min/km.

Joeseph Balls · 15-05-2018 10:12AM

ariana` wrote: »

Do you wear a running watch - can set the pace alerts so it reminds you when you're speeding up? It's annoying at first but soon you will be able to dial into the desired pace.

I do but will have to read the manual to see does it do alerts. That's a great idea though, thanks

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 02:14PM

Rossi7 wrote: »

Hi guys, I'm planning on doing my LSR tonight and I was wondering having done all my training so far in k's would I be best to change over my garmin to miles now and get use to pacing myself in miles rather than k's
Also skyblue46, what pace should I look to do my LSR tonight per k, sorry to ask you but I know you've seen my training on Strava. Looking to do 16k very slow

Hiya doing. No problem asking at all that's what we're here for. Keep it in the range of 6:05 to 6:30 per km for now. That's the sort of pace that will help the endurance develop. I know it will feel slow but it's worth getting used to it now. It will feel like a shuffle to you but trust it.

coogy · 15-05-2018 02:36PM

Hi folks,

I just wanted to ask a quick question in relation to midweek vs weekend runs and running pace.

Obviously, when the training schedule kicks in, the weekend runs will be longer and at a slower pace but am I right in thinking none of the scheduled runs (during midweek or at the weekend) should be at marathon pace?)

Just trying to get it all clear in my head so I'm mentally prepared!!!

Thanks all!

Testosterscone · 15-05-2018 02:50PM

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks,

I just wanted to ask a quick question in relation to midweek vs weekend runs and running pace.

Obviously, when the training schedule kicks in, the weekend runs will be longer and at a slower pace but am I right in thinking none of the scheduled runs (during midweek or at the weekend) should be at marathon pace?)

Just trying to get it all clear in my head so I'm mentally prepared!!!

Thanks all!

No easy/general aerobic runs generally will be a good bit slower. This should be based on fitness though rather than an arbitrary target. The lower the base you are coming from the lower your body will be at tolerating training without breaking down meaning the more you will get out of slow easy running.

To give you an example my own Marathon from my last marathon was 6.11 yet 5/7 days that I ran during the week were no faster than 7.30-8.30.

For those looking at picking the targets have a look at any races you have ran and plug them into McMillan or any calculator. Those aerobically weak will generally see a major drop off as the distances go up but if you get figures from all your races you can get a general ball park of what kinda target you should be aiming for and as you progress see if these start to line up a bit better as distances increase.

Fitness should dictate the target rather than the other way around.

bucketybuck · 15-05-2018 03:05PM

I have to admit I still struggle to reconcile "run all your training at pace X" and "run the actual marathon at pace Y".

The HH1 for example, all the midweek runs are at easy pace and then the LSR slower again, so how can somebody train for months at easy pace and then expect to run faster than that in the actual event itself? How can you condition yourself and discipline yourself to run at a slow pace in every training run and then expect that to change at the very end?

I totally get that you need slow runs and that you shouldn't be busting yourself in every training run, but if you have a goal time then surely at some point you need to train yourself to run at that goal pace?

Baby75 · 15-05-2018 03:12PM

coogy wrote: »

Hi folks,

I just wanted to ask a quick question in relation to midweek vs weekend runs and running pace.

Obviously, when the training schedule kicks in, the weekend runs will be longer and at a slower pace but am I right in thinking none of the scheduled runs (during midweek or at the weekend) should be at marathon pace?)

Just trying to get it all clear in my head so I'm mentally prepared!!!

Thanks all!

It depends on which plan you pick the Boards plan does have a midweek session's with Planned Marathon Pace worked into some weeks others have strides etc

Whereas Hal higdon is all easy paced runs and your Long slow runs at the weekend

So depending on which plan you pick you may practice your Marathon pace

I know Ariana has mentioned it before but here is the calculator for working out what your easy pace and LSR pace should be while you follow the training plan.

https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

Testosterscone · 15-05-2018 03:19PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have to admit I still struggle to reconcile "run all your training at pace X" and "run the actual marathon at pace Y".

The HH1 for example, all the midweek runs are at easy pace and then the LSR slower again, so how can somebody train for months at easy pace and then expect to run faster than that in the actual event itself? How can you condition yourself and discipline yourself to run at a slow pace in every training run and then expect that to change at the very end?

I totally get that you need slow runs and that you shouldn't be busting yourself in every training run, but if you have a goal time then surely at some point you need to train yourself to run at that goal pace?

The Hal Higdon training plan is designed around conditioning yourself to be able to cope with marathon. For anyone who is coming from little to no background before the training its a gradual introduction into distance running and is aiming to build aerobic fitness. This would be akin to a prolonged base phase.

If you are targeting a time etc then I would probably recommend a different plan with the caveat that you would need to have some sort of base going into training block.

The marathon is predominantly an aerobic event though so any form of aerobic development will help you along the way.

Baby75 · 15-05-2018 03:31PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

I have to admit I still struggle to reconcile "run all your training at pace X" and "run the actual marathon at pace Y".

The HH1 for example, all the midweek runs are at easy pace and then the LSR slower again, so how can somebody train for months at easy pace and then expect to run faster than that in the actual event itself? How can you condition yourself and discipline yourself to run at a slow pace in every training run and then expect that to change at the very end?

I totally get that you need slow runs and that you shouldn't be busting yourself in every training run, but if you have a goal time then surely at some point you need to train yourself to run at that goal pace?

The HH1 plan is for novices those who have never trained or ran a marathon before or maybe have not run one in a few years. it is solely for getting you from the start line to finish line. While you enjoy the journey:)
The race series that are worked into the plan will give you an idea of where you are and show what improvements you have made following the HH1, but as you have heard and will hear again and again: you run slow to run fast.
As first timers, it is better to focus on building endurance and keeping it easy so your body can adapt and grow stronger if you throw in lots of speed work it can increase the risk of injuries it would be too much too soon.

As a novice, it is not really advisable to chase a time or have your heart set on one but to follow the plan and go out on the day and cross that finish line while you enjoy it.

cullenswood · 15-05-2018 03:35PM

Quick question(s), my race times are all predicting a faster time than my planned marathon time. I know I am keeping the marathon time slightly conservative, but seeing as the marathon is a monster and I just want to respect the distance! And being my first one I don't want to go for something unattainable....I've no idea how my body will cope with the extra mileage.

So the question is, should I base my paces off my most recent paces, or my target time?
Also, any races I run during the plan, should I dial these back a bit and run to times more consistent with my target time (i.e. McMillan says my HM time would be 9mins slower than my actual HM time - 3:30 marathon says 1:39:47 HM, I did 1:30 last year).
Finally, I don't think I'll actually be able to run a HM in the build-up due to holidays, weddings clashing etc. I am going to run the Kilcock 10 though, and maybe the Race Series 10k. Where the HM is built into a plan should I just keep the mileage similar to the previous and next weeks?

Thanks

Mr. Guappa · 15-05-2018 04:06PM

Done a 12km LSR today at 6:31/km. As someone mentioned, it feels embarrassingly slow, but I'll trust the method. I'll be doing a 3m easy tomorrow, should i run that at the same pace?

Another question. I've done up a modified training plan to suit my schedule, based loosely off a mix of the Boards plan and HHN2. Most weeks, I don't have the days available to complete all the runs, so say I drop a 3m easy, should i put an extra 1m onto the 3 other runs that week, keeping the total mileage for the week thgee same?

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 04:20PM

cullenswood wrote: »

Quick question(s), my race times are all predicting a faster time than my planned marathon time. I know I am keeping the marathon time slightly conservative, but seeing as the marathon is a monster and I just want to respect the distance! And being my first one I don't want to go for something unattainable....I've no idea how my body will cope with the extra mileage.

So the question is, should I base my paces off my most recent paces, or my target time?
Also, any races I run during the plan, should I dial these back a bit and run to times more consistent with my target time (i.e. McMillan says my HM time would be 9mins slower than my actual HM time - 3:30 marathon says 1:39:47 HM, I did 1:30 last year).
Finally, I don't think I'll actually be able to run a HM in the build-up due to holidays, weddings clashing etc. I am going to run the Kilcock 10 though, and maybe the Race Series 10k. Where the HM is built into a plan should I just keep the mileage similar to the previous and next weeks?

Thanks

Race time predictors generally include a caveat which paraphrased says that it assumes equal preparedness and training. They in my eyes are more an indicator of a capacity to do the times. The training levels required to hit the marathon target times based on short races are way beyond that of a novices thread. It takes a lot of time and miles to do, not a few months.

If you're not doing a race at any point during the plan just continue with a similar week to the one before.

Training paces should always be done to current fitness levels and times. Hopefully as training goes on you will need to revisit them. This is the pace calculator I use. http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

Griff75 · 15-05-2018 04:32PM

ariana` wrote: »

LOL at this :pac: FYI, I asked myself that on most of the long runs last year but actually on the day itself it didn't enter my head, it was such an amazing experience, and i sincerely hope it is the same for all of this year's novices

Griff i think you'll be well able for the Boards plan. It's a slight step up from HH and having done HH before and having 2 marathons behind you already i think it will suit you.

Thanks for the advice ariana! I will follow the Boards plan although I’ll be moving things around a little as Sunday is likely to be my LSR day. Also does anyone have any thoughts on continuing some strength training? I’m aware that I’ll need to dial it down especially for legs recovery but I wouldn’t like to give it up altogether. My plan was to switch it to maybe 2 lunchtimes a week and go more lower weights higher reps than my present training which would be perhaps 4 lunchtimes but is generally high weights low reps based.

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 04:40PM

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

Done a 12km LSR today at 6:31/km. As someone mentioned, it feels embarrassingly slow, but I'll trust the method. I'll be doing a 3m easy tomorrow, should i run that at the same pace?

Another question. I've done up a modified training plan to suit my schedule, based loosely off a mix of the Boards plan and HHN2. Most weeks, I don't have the days available to complete all the runs, so say I drop a 3m easy, should i put an extra 1m onto the 3 other runs that week, keeping the total mileage for the week thgee same?

You could probably do that at a 6:12-6:15 pace without compromising the plan.

The general rule is never to chase lost miles. Thinking about it you'd be asking your body to do more with less preparation than intended. That cycle never ends well.

Is it a lack of time or tiredness after shift work that limits the days you have available?

Mr. Guappa · 15-05-2018 05:42PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

You could probably do that at a 6:12-6:15 pace without compromising the plan.

The general rule is never to chase lost miles. Thinking about it you'd be asking your body to do more with less preparation than intended. That cycle never ends well.

Is it a lack of time or tiredness after shift work that limits the days you have available?

It's a bit of both, mainly lack of time, but tiredness would be a factor too. My thought was in a week where the plan calls for say:
4m easy
9m tempo
4m easy
18m lsr
3m rec

I'd drop one of the 4m easy and do:
10m tempo
5m easy
19m lsr
4m rec

If I have to drop a short easy run every week, thats a lot of miles over the course of 18 weeks.

ahnoyouregrand · 15-05-2018 05:58PM

Thanks for the replies baby75 and skyblue46. I going to head out shortly so I will make a point of slowing down. I am however considering changing from my plan of doing the HH Novice 1 plan to do the Boards plan instead in order to have one faster run midweek.

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 06:08PM

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

It's a bit of both, mainly lack of time, but tiredness would be a factor too. My thought was in a week where the plan calls for say:
4m easy
9m tempo
4m easy
18m lsr
3m rec

I'd drop one of the 4m easy and do:
10m tempo
5m easy
19m lsr
4m rec

If I have to drop a short easy run every week, thats a lot of miles over the course of 18 weeks.

Ok I see where you are coming from. A few points....what plan has 9 and 10 mile tempo runs? That wouldn't be a wise move on a novice plan.

If you are up to the stage of doing 18 and 19 mile long runs then a mile added here or there to other runs would be fine. Last year I used the Boards plan as a very good guideline and kept the marathon pace runs at the distances suggested. I did add a mile or two to the easy days and LSRs on occasion.

As regards tiredness after shifts I find that if you can make yourself get out that the adrenaline and endorphins quickly get rid of tiredness early in the run and it's a great pick me up.

Mr. Guappa · 15-05-2018 06:18PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Ok I see where you are coming from. A few points....what plan has 9 and 10 mile tempo runs? That wouldn't be a wise move on a novice plan.

If you are up to the stage of doing 18 and 19 mile long runs then a mile added here or there to other runs would be fine. Last year I used the Boards plan as a very good guideline and kept the marathon pace runs at the distances suggested. I did add a mile or two to the easy days and LSRs on occasion.

As regards tiredness after shifts I find that if you can make yourself get out that the adrenaline and endorphins quickly get rid of tiredness early in the run and it's a great pick me up.

Thanks. The boards plan has a 9m marathon pace run in it, Wednesday of Wk 12. I'd been referring to the Wednesday marathon pace run as tempo runs, but maybe I've misunderstood something.

Yeah, I think I'm just going to force myself into the odd short easy run on shift days.

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 06:33PM

Ah yes. A tempo run would be significantly faster than marathon pace, something similar to a 10k or 10 mile race pace for many.

It'll be worth it if you get out. I got out this past week after a few 4am to midday shifts and a 7pm to 7am shift. I grabbed an hour or two of rest and then went for the run. I find it really invigorates me. Try it and see anyway.

cullenswood · 15-05-2018 07:46PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

Training paces should always be done to current fitness levels and times. Hopefully as training goes on you will need to revisit them. This is the pace calculator I use. http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

I get this when you are striving for a faster time etc, but my training paces based on current racing times would be faster than the training paces for my target time. This is why I was wondering which to base my training on.

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 08:00PM

cullenswood wrote: »

I get this when you are striving for a faster time etc, but my training paces based on current racing times would be faster than the training paces for my target time. This is why I was wondering which to base my training on.

You still train to current times. A target time is notional, your race times are real and are indicative of what you could achieve in a full but probably over a few training blocks, not a first one. Very few people will achieve the marathon predictions for marathon. My predicted time is 3:08. Not a chance I will do that. Haha.

Best advice is to train now and worry about targets in October depending on how training goes.

What are your training paces at the moment?

AdrianII · 15-05-2018 08:18PM

Ok. Iv been lurking for a while but here goes.
36 YR old Male ,6ft, 85kg (so not built for it

)

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
2009 DCM - 4hr50 (injury hit me)
Currently do a 10km in 46m training so maybe 44 in a race.
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No breaks yet currently at about 12km

How much training do you currently do ? 3-4 days a week.

Distances, how many days a week, cross training - fairly fit for age. Do lunch time runs 3mil / 5mil 3 mil then a longer weekend one 7/8miles

What do you want to achieve? Sub 4

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? 4 days max following a plan on myasis.com it’s similar to the first one you mentioned.
What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? Injury.
Why are you running this marathon? Never really accepted the previous marathon as an achievement

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 08:35PM

AdrianII wrote: »

Ok. Iv been lurking for a while but here goes.
36 YR old Male

Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs?
2009 DCM - 4hr50 (injury hit me)
Currently do a 10km in 46m training so maybe 44 in a race.
Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training? No breaks yet currently at about 12km

How much training do you currently do ? 3-4 days a week.

Distances, how many days a week, cross training - fairly fit for age. Do lunch time runs 3mil / 5mil 3 mil then a longer weekend one 7/8miles

What do you want to achieve? Sub 4

How many days a week can you train? And what plan do you intend to follow? 4 days max following a plan on myasis.com it’s similar to the first one you mentioned.
What is your biggest worry/fear/doubt (if you have any!) in signing up? Injury.
Why are you running this marathon? Never really accepted the previous marathon as an achievement

Welcome to the thread Adrian. Another non novice novice joining the party! Some great potential there alright. As has been said to quite a few already your training paces will need looking at. What paces are you training at? 46 minutes for a 10k run is too fast for marathon training for sure. It'll also reduce the risk of injury if you slow down.

cullenswood · 15-05-2018 08:36PM

skyblue46 wrote: »

You still train to current times. A target time is notional, your race times are real and are indicative of what you could achieve in a full but probably over a few training blocks, not a first one. Very few people will achieve the marathon predictions for marathon. My predicted time is 3:08. Not a chance I will do that. Haha.

Best advice is to train now and worry about targets in October depending on how training goes.

What are your training paces at the moment?

Thanks for the replies, appreciate them.

Ok, grand, didn't want to be going too fast. Longer runs would be about 5:15 pace (Sorry I work in kms, some say that shows me not to be a marathoner, ha!), easy runs about 5:00 to 5:05, do my interval training around 3:45, tempo about 4:20.

Know I'll have to slow my long run pace down anyway.

skyblue46 · 15-05-2018 08:44PM

cullenswood wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, appreciate them.

Ok, grand, didn't want to be going too fast. Longer runs would be about 5:15 pace (Sorry I work in kms, some say that shows me not to be a marathoner, ha!), easy runs about 5:00 to 5:05, do my interval training around 3:45, tempo about 4:20.

Know I'll have to slow my long run pace down anyway.

I'm hoping to run 3:30 this year and my easy runs are 5:40. Intervals depend on distance and time. I'd have to check tempo in kms but it's 7:04 per mile

Baby75 · 15-05-2018 08:53PM

ahnoyouregrand wrote: »

Thanks for the replies baby75 and skyblue46. I going to head out shortly so I will make a point of slowing down. I am however considering changing from my plan of doing the HH Novice 1 plan to do the Boards plan instead in order to have one faster run midweek.

enjoy the run and running slower

That is great you have your plan picked now get it on a paper to stick on the fridge

coogy · 15-05-2018 09:47PM

I've just come back from a nice 5 mile run and I think things are finally starting to click.
Average pace was 8.36. I totally get it now!!
Hopefully I can sustain that sort of pace over the coming months!

DCM 2018 - Mentored Novice Thread

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