Could the Irish language be revived?

Gbear · 05-05-2018 11:18PM

MarkY91 wrote: »

What benefit would it bring to it being revived?

I wish my school days doing Irish could have been replaced by a European language. You know, something I can actually use in life.

There's no finite number of languages you can learn and truly bilingual children will pick up other languages more easily later on.

It's probably not practicable to change all our schools to teach through french, which is what would be required to learn it.

Being an island doesn't help. Having English as our first language doesn't help. It kinda almost doesn't matter how its taught. So long as you're there speaking it, language sorta takes care of itself. The issue is we never use it.

It'd be really straightforward to revive Irish. Just phase all schools into Gaelscoils over 20 years. Done. Easy. Natural Irish speaking would lag a little behind, but if kids are speaking it all day or half the day, they'd be more likely to bring it home/speak it with their friends.

There's no will to do this, so it won't happen, but it's not hard to puzzle out what would need to be done.

There wouldn't really be any downsides. Our overall language literacy would shoot up as a result. You'd probably need to keep technical subjects in English just for practicalities sake, but you could do all society, history, culture subjects through Irish, as well as enforce or at least encourage Irish speaking outside class.

I think we should be studying a European language from first class as well as that, and then adding another in secondary school and that should be mandatory. That's far easier to accomplish if the child is already truly bi-lingual.

ted1 · 05-05-2018 11:52PM

Discodog wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

I hear that a!it and it's utter rubbish.
I sent my kids to one because the Gael colaiste it feeds into always ranks in the top 5 school for results and it's free, there's a scarcity of good free secondary schools between the N11 and the sea

I wonder how many of those kids will be speaking Irish at University or for the rest of there lives ?

Plenty will, plenty won’t , either way they’ll be fluent in the language and it didn’t cost them anything. They simply learnt through the Irish language as a medium

feargale · 06-05-2018 01:27AM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Irish is a dead language and trying to revive it is a complete waste of money.

You need to do a bit of googling to learn the difference between languages that are vulnerable, endangered, dead and extinct.

Whether money is being wasted is one question. But if you are saying that no money at all should be spent on something that is unique to Ireland would you also say that no money should be spent on the promotion of the Abbey Theatre or ballet or Ireland's Olympic endeavours, or in attempting to ward off the extinction of the corncrake?

clio_16v · 06-05-2018 01:56AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I hate people using the word "We" when they mean "I".

It might be part of your culture and your identiy ,but you can not say that a language a person can not speak and has no interest in is a part of their identity, and there many people who fall into that cateogory.

It's part of Irish culture and heritige. Same as Trad music, folklore, gaelic games, literature, religious influence etc. I meant we as in Irish people. I don't see religion as being any part of my culture but it has most certainly played a massive part in our (Irish) culture and heritige

MarkY91 wrote: »

I wish my school days doing Irish could have been replaced by a European language. You know, something I can actually use in life.

Do you use the European language you studied in secondary school in your day to day life? I would guess 90% dont

BenEadir · 06-05-2018 02:00AM

In answer to the op, why?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 06-05-2018 02:00AM

clio_16v wrote: »

It's part of Irish culture and heritige. Same as Trad music, folklore, gaelic games, literature, religious influence etc. I meant we as in Irish people. I don't see religion as being any part of my culture but it has most certainly played a massive part in our (Irish) culture and heritige

Fair enough, but there's a difference between saying it;s part of your culture (to someone else) and it's part of Irish culture.

feargale · 06-05-2018 02:14AM

TomSweeney wrote: »

It doesn't help either that the fascists in the Gaelteacht send kids home that speak english, what kind of nonsense is that ?

The whole point of sending kids to the Gaeltacht is so that they can improve their Irish. One kid persistently speaking English could undermine the whole exercise, and it's hardly fair to those parents who take it seriously and pay good money in the hope that their children's Irish will improve. There is an assumption that a student has a certain level of proficiency before he or she goes to the Gaeltacht. You wouldn't go to France to learn French without first knowing a bit of the language. In most of these Gaeltacht summer schools a kid gets repeated warnings before he or she is sent home.
Have you seen Spanish kids spending the summer in Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland to improve their English? Have you ever seen some of them congregating together and speaking Spanish? Would you consider their parents' money well spent?

_Dara_ · 06-05-2018 04:27AM

Amirani wrote: »

I don't think the teaching is the problem as many people claim. Fundamentally the problem is that learning it offers almost zero discernible benefit to anyone learning it, so there's no incentive to work hard to become fluent in it. I can read/speak it passably, having done Higher Level all through school and in the Leaving Cert, but it's completely irrelevant in my day-to-day existence.

And as well as that, for some of us, it’s not a pretty language. I was a good student always but loathed learning Irish, absolutely loathed it. It wasn’t a lack of aptitude for learning languages. I liked - and was good at - learning French. It was an intuitive, aurally-pleasing language to me. Irish? No. No no no.

the_syco · 06-05-2018 05:49AM

The english wiped it out in the workhouses. When it was originally revived, it seemed to be done by people with romantic ideals of how the language should be, as opposed to how it could be taught usefully. You're taught how to read poems, answer questions, etc, as opposed to how to converse in it.

storker · 06-05-2018 09:33AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

And as well as that, for some of us, it’s not a pretty language. [...]. I liked - and was good at - learning French. It was an intuitive, aurally-pleasing language to me. Irish? No. No no no.

I'm surprised this point isn't made more frequently. I never liked Irish as a subject, but I took to French like a duck to water and still have near-fluency today...even though I rarely use it. But I find French is a beautiful language to listen to, with Italian coming in a close second. For me, Irish isn't the worst-sounding language, or even close to it (I'd probably award that accolade to Dutch or Swiss-German), but for me it just doesn't give any sense of...ear candy, no matter how much I hear people say how beautiful it is.

MikeyTaylor · 08-05-2018 02:46AM

I think TV3 (or whatever they're called these days) should produce more Irish-language programming. They don't seem to acknowledge its existence!

the_syco · 08-05-2018 03:49AM

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

I think TV3 (or whatever they're called these days) should produce more Irish-language programming. They don't seem to acknowledge its existence!

Why should they? They're a commercial station. TG4 does the Irish-language programming.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 08:18AM

Discodog wrote: »

I wonder how many of those kids will be speaking Irish at University or for the rest of there lives ?

Most of them will drop it like a hot potato the second the final exams are done, unless they hop on the Irish language gravy train as teachers or translators of course.

Shenshen · 08-05-2018 08:36AM

Of course it could be, really easily and in barely any time at all.
People would just have to want to learn and speak it.

The only reason it's dying is because people don't want to speak it.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 09:32AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Of course it could be, really easily and in barely any time at all.
People would just have to want to learn and speak it.

The only reason it's dying is because people don't want to speak it.

That's pretty much the nub of the issue, the typical thing is for people to say 'ah shur I loves to be hearing it spoken, it'd be a pity for it to die out' whilst doing fcuk all themselves to halt the decline.

It's all very well reviving the language, provided 'someone else' does the work.:rolleyes:

the_syco · 08-05-2018 04:00PM

Shenshen wrote: »

People would just have to want to learn and speak it.

The way it's taught will have to be changed. Teaching it the way it was/is taught won't have the desired effect, as people will realize that they were looking at it with rose tinted glasses.

the_syco · 08-05-2018 04:02PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

It's all very well reviving the language, provided 'someone else' does the work.:rolleyes:

Actually, it will have to be someone else, as most of the current lot don't seem to know how to teach it any differently.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 04:16PM

the_syco wrote: »

Actually, it will have to be someone else, as most of the current lot don't seem to know how to teach it any differently.

The 'it's not taught properly' argument is a bit of a cop-out tbh. If people were motivated enough they would do something about it, which they clearly are not.

Graces7 · 08-05-2018 04:17PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Irish is a dead language and trying to revive it is a complete waste of money.

Spend a day in eg Ballydavid in kerry .

I was there one Sunday and went to Mass; in Irish.
Afterwards i was chatting to some young mothers who were raising their little ones to be bi-lingual the natural way, speaking both languages. And my neighbour here is bilingual. Fluently so

SusieBlue · 08-05-2018 04:25PM

The way its taught is absolutely woeful, in fairness.
Gaelscoils teach through immersion, which has proven to be far more effective than sticking their heads in books.

In Gaelscoils, when they start Junior Infants, the kids will speak mostly English and the teacher speaks only Irish.
The children won't have the capacity to reply to the teacher in Irish, and they may not even understand everything the teacher is saying.
A big thing I saw is that if the child doesn't understand, rather than just say it in English, the teacher will gesture or show a picture of what they're trying to say until the kid understands.

My goddaughter goes to one, and knew only the odd word when she starterd - cota, mála, etc.
Before long she was speaking in English with the odd Irish word thrown in, eg "Where's my bosca lón?". Within another few months, the kids were able to mostly able to understand what the teacher was saying, and able to reply using a mixture of English and Irish.

There was no sitting down with textbooks learning verbs or anything like that. The more they learned, the less they used English, and the more they used Irish.

I went to one so am biased - but I actually wasn't great at French, I didn't understand the language rules and found the verbs boring.
I did very average in it in exams so am clearly not predisposed to be good at languages.
Being taught organically makes all the difference.

Shenshen · 08-05-2018 04:28PM

the_syco wrote: »

The way it's taught will have to be changed. Teaching it the way it was/is taught won't have the desired effect, as people will realize that they were looking at it with rose tinted glasses.

If people wanted to learn it, the way it's taught wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference. People would start communication circles, find online support and start networking in order to learn it.

But people do not want to.
That is the reason any language ever has died out, people didn't want to speak it any more. Languages are incredibly democratic and fluent that way. Thy evolve and thrive when people want to speak them, and they die an disappear when people start preferring other languages.

And no amount of "Oh, but we should, it's such a lovely language" or "It's part of our culture, we can't lose that" lip service is going to bring Irish back from the brink.
People currently do not want to speak it.

Shenshen · 08-05-2018 04:35PM

Interestingly, I find that the Irish language is part of an Irish culture that seem to me (as an outsider) more of an Irish nostalgia than an actual living, breathing way of life.

People get dreamy-eyed telling you about great Irish literature (and it is indeed great!!!), but when you try and talk to most people about any of the Irish writers, the dreamy eyes turn to blank stares very quickly.
And people love to mention trad music (again, personally, I'm partial to it), but more than once have I had Irish friends opening a pub door, hearing the music inside and turn round to me say "Ah, let's go somewhere else, this'll be full of old people and the music will give me a headache".

At this point, I'm wondering if Irish people (generally speaking) treat their culture the way they would have treated the "good" room in days gone by. Kept for visitors only, not to be used by the family.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 04:40PM

With the Gaelscoils we are codding ourselves with a revival with the likes of... 'oh my little Mary knows this-or-that in Irish, isn't she great?' when she won't bother her backside with it upon leaving school.

judeboy101 · 08-05-2018 04:43PM

You don't have to do oral Irish in new junior cycle.

SusieBlue · 08-05-2018 04:48PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

With the Gaelscoils we are codding ourselves with a revival with the likes of... 'oh my little Mary knows this-or-that in Irish, isn't she great?' when she won't bother her backside with it upon leaving school.

Its not "knowing this or that in Irish" - they have complete fluency. Everything they learn is through that medium.
I left school 9 years ago and am still fluent when I need to be.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 04:48PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Spend a day in eg Ballydavid in kerry .

I was there one Sunday and went to Mass; in Irish.
Afterwards i was chatting to some young mothers who were raising their little ones to be bi-lingual the natural way, speaking both languages. And my neighbour here is bilingual. Fluently so

Those are isolated examples, one in a fiercely Irish-speaking part of the country, and more power to them. But it's not at all typical of the country as a whole.

MikeyTaylor · 08-05-2018 04:48PM

the_syco wrote: »

Why should they? They're a commercial station. TG4 does the Irish-language programming.

Why shouldn't they? Don't see why an easy to understand Gaeilge show on a commercial station wouldn't have some kind of audience.

whisky_galore · 08-05-2018 04:49PM

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Why shouldn't they? Don't see why an easy to understand Gaeilge show on a commercial station wouldn't have some kind of audience.

Yes, a niche one.

Shenshen · 08-05-2018 06:47PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Its not "knowing this or that in Irish" - they have complete fluency. Everything they learn is through that medium.
I left school 9 years ago and am still fluent when I need to be.

When you need to be. Not when you want to be, or choose to be.

How often would you use it per day, would you say?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 08-05-2018 09:33PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

The way its taught is absolutely woeful, in fairness.
Gaelscoils teach through immersion, which has proven to be far more effective than sticking their heads in books.

And how long have we been saying this? Certainly since I was introduced to the language and that was 40 years ago. How long before this is no longer the case? Another 40 years?

I'm of the opinion that whoever sets the Irish syllabus is as lazy as the rest of the country when it comes to making the effort with regard to the language. If the follow post is correct, I'd add rank incompetence to the accusation as well.

judeboy101 wrote: »

You don't have to do oral Irish in new junior cycle.

...

MikeyTaylor wrote: »

Why shouldn't they? Don't see why an easy to understand Gaeilge show on a commercial station wouldn't have some kind of audience.

Because the bulk of TV3's audience struggle to speak English, let alone something else.

Could the Irish language be revived?

Comments