Could the Irish language be revived?

Discodog

ted1 wrote: »

I hear that a!it and it's utter rubbish.
I sent my kids to one because the Gael colaiste it feeds into always ranks in the top 5 school for results and it's free, there's a scarcity of good free secondary schools between the N11 and the sea

I wonder how many of those kids will be speaking Irish at University or for the rest of there lives ?

nikkibikki

TallGlass wrote:

It so sad really, a fully functional language there we should all use. Myself included, I can blame everyone and anything, but I see no use, if I said a few words to someone in a shop, I would be looked at with three heads.

That would depend on the shop! One I go to, if the owner knows you can speak a bit of Irish, he will refuse to speak to you in English!

TallGlass wrote:

Yet in work, there are Indian guys who speak a mix of English/Indian in the same sentence to each other.

That's how Irish is spoken these days too by a lot of fluent speakers I know.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

clio_16v wrote: »

Conversational Irish should be taught from the start. Rules / tenses after. I love Irish and had an ok standard when I did my leaving but its all but gone now. I don't think it's irrelevant or a waste of time. It's not going to help you work or study abroad or anything like that. I think it's about identity and culture. We should be proud to be Irish and celebrate it through the cupla focal we might have

I hate people using the word "We" when they mean "I".

It might be part of your culture and your identiy ,but you can not say that a language a person can not speak and has no interest in is a part of their identity, and there many people who fall into that cateogory.

This is why I think we should be asking "do we want it revived?" before we start asking questions like "can it?" and "how?" - there are plenty of resources open to learning Irish for adults, but if they aren't being utilised for whatever reason, you have to go back and ask if the will is really there.

Agricola

I was about to say it's more to do with the way it's taught, ie drilling verb conjugation into your head before you can even string a sentence together. But now that I think about it, I did french for 5 years in school and there was a shítload of verbs to be learned in that, as well as the whole masculine/feminine noun thing.

In my rose tinted memory, it's as if we did nothing in french class but learn how to fluent for the purpose of being a tourist but it was probably every bit as regimented as Irish certainly was.
In that case I can only put it down to two things. French is actually useful and even as kids we knew that..... and my french teacher was a much nicer individual than the nasty, dried up aul bint I had for Irish.

JohnMc1

If Varadkar has his way we'll be speaking Arabic within a decade.

OldMrBrennan83

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If Varadkar has his way we'll be speaking Arabic within a decade.

Bloody hell - not everything's about ****ing immigration.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Patww79 wrote: »

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English will be taxed at the very least. Along with breathing.[/quote]
And not everything's about ****ing economics either.

OldMrBrennan83

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One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I hate people using the word "We" when they mean "I".

It might be part of your culture and your identiy ,but you can not say that a language a person can not speak and has no interest in is a part of their identity, and there many people who fall into that cateogory.

This is why I think we should be asking "do we want it revived?" before we start asking questions like "can it?" and "how?" - there are plenty of resources open to learning Irish for adults, but if they aren't being utilised for whatever reason, you have to go back and ask if the will is really there.

But you just did the very same thing PB?

Nobody is suggesting that if you aren't Irish that the language is part of your culture, but the Irish language itself is part of Irish culture and Irish cultural identity, and for those of us who identify as Irish and can speak the language, we should make more of an effort to do so and should be proud to do so. That's all that poster was suggesting, and I agree with them.

I make an effort to speak Irish with those people I know can speak Irish, Mandarin with those people I know can speak Mandarin, Polish with those people I know can speak Polish, French with... you get the idea. At the moment I'm learning Hindi and Sanskrit from a couple of people I work with, and they love learning Irish.

The will is certainly there among adults who have never had exposure to the way too many Irish adults feel about their own language and cultural identity. It's as though some people imagine they have to be more "European" and forego their own national identity, while at the same time never stopping to notice that in almost every other European country, English is the second language after their own native language.

Del2005

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Gaeltacht in 1926, circa 1960 and 2007. See a noticeable trend?

1926



1956



2007

I was listening to the radio recently , I think it was Newstalk, and a reporter went to a Gealtacht area. Everywhere they went people where speaking English and the person in the shop said they rarely had Irish spoken to them. So if the people in Irish speaking areas don't use it it's not got much hope.

indioblack

JohnKyle39 wrote: »

The Welsh language was going extinct and they were able to revive it and now there are parts of wales that only speak welsh and the numbers
of Welsh speakers is growing. They are trying to hit 1 million speakers by 2050.

Could the Irish language be revived and have larger Irish only speaking areas?

No. If there was genuine interest it would have happened by now.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Patww79 wrote: »

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Then let's talk about the bloody language, shall we?!

OldMrBrennan83

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But you just did the very same thing PB?

Nobody is suggesting that if you aren't Irish that the language is part of your culture, but the Irish language itself is part of Irish culture and Irish cultural identity, and for those of us who identify as Irish and can speak the language, we should make more of an effort to do so and should be proud to do so. That's all that poster was suggesting, and I agree with them.

I make an effort to speak Irish with those people I know can speak Irish, Mandarin with those people I know can speak Mandarin, Polish with those people I know can speak Polish, French with... you get the idea. At the moment I'm learning Hindi and Sanskrit from a couple of people I work with, and they love learning Irish.

The will is certainly there among adults who have never had exposure to the way too many Irish adults feel about their own language and cultural identity. It's as though some people imagine they have to be more "European" and forego their own national identity, while at the same time never stopping to notice that in almost every other European country, English is the second language after their own native language.

I'm not telling people how they should feel about something - I'm advising how to approach a problem if they they want to resolve an issue or improve a situation. If they don't, then fine: their choice.

Saying that "we should make more of an effort to do so and should be proud to do so" is fine - but again the question was not what "should" be the case, but what actually "is" the case?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Patww79 wrote: »

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So... what's this got to do with Leo and taxes?!

OldMrBrennan83

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Mrsmum

It would be a real shame imo to let it die as it is such a beautiful language. I always think it's got real soul, just the way things are said - I'm sad, boring English - tá brón orm, the sadness is on me, expresses so much more about what sadness is and how one feels if suffering from that emotion. And all the amazing seanfhocail - Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh said etc. Even greetings, Dia dhuit, Dia is Mhuire Dhuit is such an expansive greeting.
Had a fantastic Irish teacher at school. She used to say never mind the rules, listen to the wonderful sounds. I think the biggest problem for adults that would like to speak it a bit more in their daily lives is that you feel you have to be really good at it, ie that the broken Irish that most of us have is unacceptable.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm not telling people how they should feel about something - I'm advising how to approach a problem if they they want to resolve an issue or improve a situation. If they don't, then fine: their choice.

Saying that "we should make more of an effort to do so and should be proud to do so" is fine - but again the question was not what "should" be the case, but what actually "is" the case?

No, the question is could the Irish language be revived? You appear to want to ask a different question as opposed to just answering the question that's being asked. If you think it couldn't be revived, fair enough, but you only need to answer the question for yourself. There's no need to ask would we want it revived, that question is already implicit in asking could it be revived?

The OP would hardly be asking the question if they weren't interested in it's revival. Any language could be revived if it were possible to generate an interest in it and get more people passionate about the language, but unfortunately due to the way it's taught differently from other modern European languages, young people being taught Irish simply have nothing to relate it to, as other parts of Irish culture have suffered similar erasure over the last number of decades.

MarkY91

What benefit would it bring to it being revived?

I wish my school days doing Irish could have been replaced by a European language. You know, something I can actually use in life.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, the question is could the Irish language be revived? You appear to want to ask a different question as opposed to just answering the question that's being asked. If you think it couldn't be revived, fair enough, but you only need to answer the question for yourself. There's no need to ask would we want it revived, that question is already implicit in asking could it be revived?

The OP would hardly be asking the question if they weren't interested in it's revival. Any language could be revived if it were possible to generate an interest in it and get more people passionate about the language, but unfortunately due to the way it's taught differently from other modern European languages, young people being taught Irish simply have nothing to relate it to, as other parts of Irish culture have suffered similar erasure over the last number of decades.

Fair point, I was seeing it as "how" based on the first few posts.

The answer though is the same: no - there is neither the desire amongst those who can't speak it, not the will amongst those who can to encourage others. Sitting around and saying "you should speak it" is not going to achieve much.

It's the same with education: saying that kids should learn it and doing nothing else achieves nothing. Saying it needs to change does nothing. Saying it should be compulsory does nothing.

One eyed Jack

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair point, I was seeing it as "how" based on the first few posts.

The answer though is the same: no - there is neither the desire amongst those who can't speak it, not the will amongst those who can to encourage others. Sitting around and saying "you should speak it" is not going to achieve much.

It's the same with education: saying that kids should learn it and doing nothing else achieves nothing. Saying it needs to change does nothing. Saying it should be compulsory does nothing.

But that part clearly isn't true if you read my earlier post. I've met a number of people who love to learn the language and want to be able to speak it and are very interested in Irish culture, and that's the important thing - I agree with you in the sense that the revival of the Irish language doesn't happen in a vacuum, and solely focussing on just promoting the Irish language itself without any context is just a terrible idea. It doesn't work, clearly, and it hasn't worked in Irish schools because there is simply no context for it.

Recent attempts by I don't know who to try and 'sex up' the Irish language and make it more similar to English actually make me cringe to be honest. I agree with you though that just saying something needs to be done, does nothing, which is why encouraging people to use what they know of Irish language and culture is a step in the right direction, and we're seeing those efforts pay off with Gaelscoils enjoying a recent surge in popularity in Irish society.

facehugger99

MarkY91 wrote: »

What benefit would it bring to it being revived?

I guess it would make a few Irish language nazis happy.

Seems to be the only reason we're pissing millions of tax-euros away on it every year.

ZeitgeistGlee

I've always thought one of the main impediments to the revival of Irish as a language has been the absolute intransigence of certain quarters to acknowledge/recognise that it should/must be taught the same way we teach foreign languages as opposed to teaching it like English is taught with a focus on grammar, poetry/prose, rote learning and regurgitation at exam times. There simply isn't enough natural exposure to Irish as a functioning language to fill in the gaps that aren't covered in the classroom hence more people losing the majority of their Irish after secondary.

Overhaul the curriculum with a view to develop conversational Irish and casual use through modern media that actually reflects modern Irish life (no more fecking famine poetry and Peig Sayers so old and drenched in misery you could robs your gran's school notes for) that might actually enthuse students to look at it with something other than dread. Modernising/simplifying the language itself/grammar (taking a leaf out of Esperanto/Korean's book) could also be another avenue of exploration as IIRC Irish hasn't modernised to the same extent as other European first languages.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But that part clearly isn't true if you read my earlier post. I've met a number of people who love to learn the language and want to be able to speak it and are very interested in Irish culture, and that's the important thing - I agree with you in the sense that the revival of the Irish language doesn't happen in a vacuum, and solely focussing on just promoting the Irish language itself without any context is just a terrible idea. It doesn't work, clearly, and it hasn't worked in Irish schools because there is simply no context for it.

Recent attempts by I don't know who to try and 'sex up' the Irish language and make it more similar to English actually make me cringe to be honest. I agree with you though that just saying something needs to be done, does nothing, which is why encouraging people to use what they know of Irish language and culture is a step in the right direction, and we're seeing those efforts pay off with Gaelscoils enjoying a recent surge in popularity in Irish society.

Sounds like your preaching to the choir a bit. The people speaking it are those with the desire. It's the ones without the desire you need to focus on if you want to bring about a revival.

Nettle Soup

Irish is a dead language and trying to revive it is a complete waste of money.

Mutant z

Its not going to work by forcing it into someones face only those who really want to learn it should those who dont should be allowed to opt out of learning it at schools.

Buford T. Justice XIX

rainlight wrote: »

Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach

Mod note: The old dog for the long road and all that but, next time, please provide an english translation as well for those not as fluent in the language.

Buford T.Justice

SusieBlue

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

It's mostly used these days as a social status thing anyway, isn't it? Sending young Jack and Chloe to the gaelscoil rather than having to mix with the riff raff in the local school.

Interestingly most of the Gaelscoils in Cork are located in typically disadvantaged areas.
Mahon, Farranree, Mayfield and Ballyphehane would be considered underprivileged areas but all are home to Gaelscoils.
Don’t know what the situation is like in other counties but in Cork they most certainly aren’t used to avoid the riff raff.
Some might argue that the riff raff are in the Gaelscoils and you should went your kids to the English speaking schools to avoid them. :pac:

appledrop

There is something wrong with the way Irish is taught in school + topics it covers. My Irish is crap + I learnt it for 14 years. Yet only learned French for 6 so much better. I remember for Junior Cert Irish writing postcard from the seaside. In contrast in French we were talking about immigrant ghettos in Paris. Teenagers need topics they can relate to not postcards+ ceilis etc. Shouldn't be compulsory to learn then people wouldnt hate it so much.