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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    According to this article in the Limerick Leader about the county development plane being changed, the project will go to ABP in September.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    According to this article in the Limerick Leader about the county development plane being changed, the project will go to ABP in September.
    That's painfully slow. It won't likely start until early 2022 if that's the case.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Scheme website has been updated to include drawings of a detailed design of the planned route: www.foyneslimerick.ie

    The mainline from Patrickswell to Rathkeale will be motorway (M21). The scheme now ends at a roundabout in Rathkeale, which will likely see congestion at peak times (will we ever learn?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 975 ✭✭✭medoc


    marno21 wrote: »
    Scheme website has been updated to include drawings of a detailed design of the planned route: www.foyneslimerick.ie

    The mainline from Patrickswell to Rathkeale will be motorway (M21). The scheme now ends at a roundabout in Rathkeale, which will likely see congestion at peak times (will we ever learn?)


    Good to see part of it as motorway. Will provision be left for a free flow continuation of the M20 towards Cork as part of this project? Or will that be left till the M20 scheme starts?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    medoc wrote: »
    Good to see part of it as motorway. Will provision be left for a free flow continuation of the M20 towards Cork as part of this project? Or will that be left till the M20 scheme starts?

    Nope it won't as this will be gone to ABP before the M20 route is selected. This will just involve a widening of the existing N21 for about 2km west of the N20 junctions with no modifications to the junction. I'd imagine the old N21 from Patrickswell will be given a facelift as it's now an alternative route


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I agree with ending it on a roundabout.... not a good idea running a 120kmh motorway into a standard 100kmh single carriageway road. No-one slows down and you end up with utter carnage, like the junction for Jack Whites before the M11 gap was filled. 120kmh off the motorway, round the corner, down a hill and straight into emerging traffic from a T junction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    I agree with ending it on a roundabout.... not a good idea running a 120kmh motorway into a standard 100kmh single carriageway road. No-one slows down and you end up with utter carnage, like the junction for Jack Whites before the M11 gap was filled. 120kmh off the motorway, round the corner, down a hill and straight into emerging traffic from a T junction.

    The Ballincollig bypass ends with a reduction to 100 kph and it is definitely not an accident black spot.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The Ballincollig bypass ends with a reduction to 100 kph and it is definitely not an accident black spot.

    As does the current N21, which this scheme will replace. I've never seen an accident there.
    I agree with ending it on a roundabout.... not a good idea running a 120kmh motorway into a standard 100kmh single carriageway road. No-one slows down and you end up with utter carnage, like the junction for Jack Whites before the M11 gap was filled. 120kmh off the motorway, round the corner, down a hill and straight into emerging traffic from a T junction.

    I'd much rather it end into a 100km/h single carriageway to cram as much traffic into Newcastlewest as quick as possible so it might wake someone up and get planning on the N21 Abbeyfeale-Adare scheme. Especially the waffledragon of a Minister in that constituency who constantly rambles on about this scheme as if he's building it himself, meanwhile it has been under-resourced for several years now.

    The plan in the NDP is two half baked roundabout ridden relief roads for Newcastlewest and Abbeyfeale. Because that policy worked out extremely well in the past (Castlebar, Mallow, Mitchelstown, Cahir, Cork City, Clonmel, Dungarvan, Killarney).


  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    As does the current N21, which this scheme will replace. I've never seen an accident there.”

    Not a fair comparison as the 100kph section is throttled down to narrow single and then into the Lantern Lodge Roundabout. This is usually where the queue into Adare starts. If Rathkeale Junction was grade separated then cars would continue on at high speed through the myriad of t-junctions west of Rathkeale. The Rathkeale Junction can easily be upgraded to a grade separated junction if and when the next section is developed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    And there are plans for 2 sets of traffic lights in Abbeyfeale. Not sure has it been passed by the councillors yet. Madness.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    pajoguy wrote: »
    And there are plans for 2 sets of traffic lights in Abbeyfeale. Not sure has it been passed by the councillors yet. Madness.
    Will only strengthen the case for a bypass.

    The people of Abbeyfeale shouldn't have to suffer because of Government incompetence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    marno21 wrote: »
    Scheme website has been updated to include drawings of a detailed design of the planned route: www.foyneslimerick.ie

    The mainline from Patrickswell to Rathkeale will be motorway (M21). The scheme now ends at a roundabout in Rathkeale, which will likely see congestion at peak times (will we ever learn?)

    This looks like the outline of a future dumbell junction?

    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1cba1b_8df528998d3b44a4b0b0a60de71a1ace.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Limerick74


    This looks like the outline of a future dumbell junction?

    https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1cba1b_8df528998d3b44a4b0b0a60de71a1ace.pdf

    It was previously shown on the June 2017 Design Update. https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1cba1b_6a04cad21cc74c458c13694ebf7e12ef.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    It was previously shown on the June 2017 Design Update. https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/1cba1b_6a04cad21cc74c458c13694ebf7e12ef.pdf

    Yeah, yeh see a proper country would build a free flow trumpet there for the port access road but this is Ireland :rolleyes:


    "What's the cheapest most half assed solution we can come up with?"


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I'm surprised that a dumbell is TEN-T compliant tbh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    This is genuinely amazing. What sort of idiots do we have in the road design department.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Thats not a dumbbell in my mind, thats a roundabout for the end of the motorway with a local road and a second roundabout tacked on the end.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Thats not a dumbbell in my mind, thats a roundabout for the end of the motorway with a local road and a second roundabout tacked on the end.

    Even so, the road could still have been ended with a dumbbell.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,333 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Thats not a dumbbell in my mind, thats a roundabout for the end of the motorway with a local road and a second roundabout tacked on the end.

    Yeah, only the Northern roundabout links to the motorway. The Southern one is a link to the old N21. So the motorway will end at an at grade roundabout rather than a GSJ. Similar to the end of the M9.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I hate to say it but I agree with it. I'd much rather a motorway end at a roundabout than a GSJ knowing our driving habits. Don't forget the number of accidents at the Beehive when the M11 just ended and went down a hill to a junction. No-one slowed down.

    Since the motorway will never go to Foynes, end it at a roundabout to break up traffic.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I hate to say it but I agree with it. I'd much rather a motorway end at a roundabout than a GSJ knowing our driving habits. Don't forget the number of accidents at the Beehive when the M11 just ended and went down a hill to a junction. No-one slowed down.

    Since the motorway will never go to Foynes, end it at a roundabout to break up traffic.

    Accidents at the end of the existing M20 -> N21 are a rarity and it's a motorway -> WS2 taper

    I hope the M21 is continued on past Newcastlewest soon enough and we won't have to talk about it much more


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    What is happening to the N21 as it curves southwest just before entering Adare? The map has the motorway ploughing straight ahead with no evidence of an exit at that point, but doesn't state that the 500 m or so of old N21 will be closed off.

    It looks to me like non-motorway traffic will be diverted along the L1427 Monearla Road (which presumably will be reclassified as part of the R-road replacing the old N21) across the motorway towards the R526.

    EDIT: On closer inspection, it looks like they're running the old N21 directly into the L1427 and eliminating the junction at that point. Guess they're closing it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    Accidents at the end of the existing M20 -> N21 are a rarity and it's a motorway -> WS2 taper

    I hope the M21 is continued on past Newcastlewest soon enough and we won't have to talk about it much more

    The Lantern Lodge Roundabout and traffic queues calms the traffic after the end of the N21 WS2, otherwise the collision rates would be higher.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    What is happening to the N21 as it curves southwest just before entering Adare? The map has the motorway ploughing straight ahead with no evidence of an exit at that point, but doesn't state that the 500 m or so of old N21 will be closed off.

    It looks to me like non-motorway traffic will be diverted along the L1427 Monearla Road (which presumably will be reclassified as part of the R-road replacing the old N21) across the motorway towards the R526.

    EDIT: On closer inspection, it looks like they're running the old N21 directly into the L1427 and eliminating the junction at that point. Guess they're closing it.

    The L1427, or Monearla Road, was the old N21 from Patrickswell to Adare before the M20 and N21 extension were opened in 2001. At a guess, it'll go back to being the alternative route post M21 opening

    The N21 extension to Adare will become part of the M21, and the small bit between the old N21 and new N21 just outside Adare will likely be returned to pasture or used to service dwellings if required.
    Limerick74 wrote: »
    The Lantern Lodge Roundabout and traffic queues calms the traffic after the end of the N21 WS2, otherwise the collision rates would be higher.

    Ah yes, but the Lantern Lodge is 2-3km from the end of the M20. I was on about roundabouts directly at the end of new roads, which usually have to be removed when the road improvement is extended.

    The Lantern Lodge roundabout does calm traffic although these days the traffic is often further back from the LL roundabout and closer to the end of the motorway.

    It's worse coming from the Croagh side as the Adare traffic usually backs up onto those horrific bends and people come flying around the bends into stopped traffic.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Surprised no one has mentioned it yet but this road may be particularly vulnerable to sulky racing near Rathkeale which would be very dangerous.

    Measures would have to be put in place to prevent that the way they struggle to prevent it now.


    Also the way the Limerick Design Office has overseen the design of this road would worry you for the M20!


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Surprised no one has mentioned it yet but this road may be particularly vulnerable to sulky racing near Rathkeale which would be very dangerous.

    Measures would have to be put in place to prevent that the way they struggle to prevent it now.


    Also the way the Limerick Design Office has overseen the design of this road would worry you for the M20!
    I haven't seen or heard of any sulky racing on the existing S2 Rathkeale bypass so I wouldn't be too worried about it.

    What's wrong with this that will be an issue for the M20?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    No freeflow for link to Foynes.

    Cheap and shoddy option.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    No freeflow for link to Foynes.

    Cheap and shoddy option.
    Foynes link is low volume single carriageway. It won't be congested.

    It would be far handier if there was a clear plan for continuing the M21 past this junction, as it will definitely be required into the future. The existing N21 west of here is going to break down when this motorway opens as the only thing keeping it going at the minute is Adare acting as a giant traffic calming measure.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Shane Ross mentioned in the Seanad on Thursday that he expects this scheme to be complete by 2026.

    Personally, I think that is scandalous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    The section between rathkeale and foynes is going to be dual carriageway. This change im told is not expected to delay the application to An Board Pleanala.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    pajoguy wrote: »
    The section between rathkeale and foynes is going to be dual carriageway. This change im told is not expected to delay the application to An Board Pleanala.

    A sensible move, but more delays are not good..


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    If this is true then it raises a few questions:

    1. If the stretch to Foynes is to be DC, will it be motorway or 2+2? Motorway is a possibility to comply with TEN-T requirements
    2. The M21/N21/Foynes Link junction will surely have to be redesigned
    3. What effect will this have on the existing design, coupled with additional CPO required for the wider cross section?


  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    If this is true then it raises a few questions:

    1. If the stretch to Foynes is to be DC, will it be motorway or 2+2? Motorway is a possibility to comply with TEN-T requirements
    2. The M21/N21/Foynes Link junction will surely have to be redesigned
    3. What effect will this have on the existing design, coupled with additional CPO required for the wider cross section?

    Most likely answers:

    1. Type 2 Dual (2+2). Don’t need motorway for TEN-T. TII standards allow for various cross sections for an express road.
    2. None
    3. Minimal - CPO was always wide enough to allow for future widening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭Irish_rat


    Type 2 dual surely or else it's overkill.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    According to Sponge Bob on SSC this is to go to ABP in December.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21 Happy Dragon


    marno21 wrote: »
    According to Sponge Bob on SSC this is to go to ABP in December.

    I got an e-mail from the Foynes to Limerick Project Team saying, "the next project update will be released in the coming weeks expected mid November".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,134 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    does that mean ABP will give a decision on dec ? how soon do we expect to see lads tearing round the gaf in dumper trucks?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    dashoonage wrote: »
    does that mean ABP will give a decision on dec ? how soon do we expect to see lads tearing round the gaf in dumper trucks?

    Unfortunately not it's just being submitted to An Bord Pleanala in December. It's currently taking approximately a year for decisions on projects like these


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,134 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    marno21 wrote: »
    Unfortunately not it's just being submitted to An Bord Pleanala in December. It's currently taking approximately a year for decisions on projects like these

    thank you!

    The N69 is falling apart...its starting to sink badly in spots between clarina and kildimo.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    dashoonage wrote: »
    thank you!

    The N69 is falling apart...its starting to sink badly in spots between clarina and kildimo.
    I'm not one bit surprised.

    That road is totally inadequate for both the volume and type of traffic it is handling. The lack of political will to get this Foynes road done is disappointing. You'd swear there wasn't daily multi kilometre tailbacks in Adare and that this was some sort of vanity project.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,134 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    Looks like the auld N69 is gonna get a slap of some tar and chippings
    Limerick City and County Council advise Motorists and Road Users that a Topographical Survey will take place along the N69 from Monday 26th November to Wednesday 05th December 2018, between 09:30am to 16:30pm each day. The Survey will take place between Court Cross and Bolane, including Kildimo village.

    The Topographical Survey is being carried out to assist in the design of a future Pavement Improvement Scheme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Treepole


    dashoonage wrote: »
    Looks like the auld N69 is gonna get a slap of some tar and chippings

    The section of road they are referring to has subsided considerably, and it's very noticeable in recent months. It will take far more than tar and chip to resolve. There have been a number of accidents on that stretch recently.


  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Preliminary Design wont be finished until the New Year is the latest news on this project.

    Edit: I see the website is now showing "Guest Area" enter password. Maybe there is an update on the way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,134 ✭✭✭dashoonage


    Treepole wrote: »
    The section of road they are referring to has subsided considerably, and it's very noticeable in recent months. It will take far more than tar and chip to resolve. There have been a number of accidents on that stretch recently.

    The tar and chip comment was a bit tongue in cheek :P


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    "Design Update - Nov 2018" on the website but as above requires password.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Mango Joe


    Due for completion by 2026?????

    13 years after the process started? Why would this be?

    How long does it take other European countries to complete comparable projects does anyone know?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Mango Joe wrote: »
    Due for completion by 2026?????

    13 years after the process started? Why would this be?

    How long does it take other European countries to complete comparable projects does anyone know?
    Most European projects don't have to deal with Shane Ross, or the infrastructural policy of Fine Gael.


  • Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Limerick74


    Design Update on website now https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,131 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Meh, cheap is about the best that can be said. No substantial changes.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The length of time it's taking to get this scheme to ABP is frustrating as ****. Why isn't it being adequately resourced by Government? It's not a pet project or a vanity project

    ABP submission in "early 2019" as per website now.


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