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Leap card misuse- fine!

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    #182
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    OP contact your local TD, the Press etc, no way would I pay that fine.


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    #183
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,539 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    wally79 wrote: »
    So what’s to stop someone doing this repeatedly until caught and then playing the innocent when they are

    You can’t run a system like that and all your keyboard warrior personal insults against someone you don’t even know don’t change that

    Such a person would have no evidence of tagging off, whereas the OP would have tag offs at Sallins.


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    #184
    wally79
    Registered Users Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭wally79


    Charles Babbage wrote: »
    Such a person would have no evidence of tagging off, whereas the OP would have tag offs at Sallins.

    Yes and they can show that in the appeals process

    Also afaik a lot of people don’t bother tagging off at the last stop because you get charged max fare anyway


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    #185
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    wally79 wrote: »
    How do you differentiate the honest mistake from the person doing this deliberately to scam a few quid and pulling out the same story when caught?

    As per my previous post, it's pretty simple.

    1) Use of common sense

    2) Use of discretion

    If there is no cop-on on a human level and no room for the use of discretion, all of these guys should be fired tomorrow and replaced with a technological solution.


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    #186
    wally79
    Registered Users Posts: 2,933 ✭✭✭wally79


    Camden Angry Nitwit wrote: »
    As per my previous post, it's pretty simple.

    1) Use of common sense

    2) Use of discretion

    If there is no cop-on on a human level and no room for the use of discretion, all of these guys should be fired tomorrow and replaced with a technological solution.

    That’s fine but what if a genuine person isn’t very believable for some reason or some chancer is great at acting innocent or the inspector is having a bad day

    Why introduce ambiguity

    There is an appeals process where you can present your case


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    #187
    Billgirlylegs
    Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    RossieMan wrote: »
    What do you not understand? It's not in the leap zone. Sallins was recently added. Newbridge is not.
    You're in the wrong I'm afraid.

    Utter and complete bull. "If I could find it on Google, so could you". "What do you not understand"

    The system that "they" designed and implemented involves paying money to register on a little plastic card. To get on public transport "their" system requires you to tap a reader. At journeys end you tap another reader and the cost of the journey is deducted from your credit.
    It isn't complicated.
    "They" have not put a reader in Newbridge for some unstated reason. Put a man in a booth at Newbridge and other similarly equipped stations.

    If use of the card doesn't apply to a particular train / service, say so clearly in big letters all over each station.

    Having the card applicable to part of the journey the train takes is preposterous.
    A fine of € 100 plus in the circumstances is preposterous.
    Taking the card is preposterous. What about the money the customer has lodged and can't use.?

    I had to think for a while to find a suitable word.
    I think it's all so preposterous that I used it 3 4 times.


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    #188
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    Having the card applicable to part of the journey the train takes is preposterous.

    Well the obvious solution to that is not allow anyone to travel anywhere on the route with a leap card. I'm sure that will go down like a treat.

    Buying a cheap ticket and over-travelling is a pretty bog-standard means of fare evasion. The fact the leap card was tagged on means nothing and in no way contributes to the veracity of the story from the inspectors point of view. It would be worth finding out how many people mistakenly travel past the leap card zone before assuming this is entirely Irish Rail's fault.


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    #189
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,439 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Even a notice on the reader you tap on at saying the last zone applicable for travel credit usage would go a long way towards preventing this kind of mistake.

    I'm always very wary using public transport in Dublin, a few years ago the only reason I knew to tap on on the Luas platform rather than on board (like on a bus) was from reading forums on boards. It's not intuitive for someone arriving at a platform. On a bus I asked the driver did it stop at such and such a road and he sarcastically said 'you'll find out'. Haven't used it on a train yet but my one experience of using a DART (where I had to use a compass app on my phone to figure out which platform I needed to board from) hasn't left me very confident of Irish Rail's ability to post clear signage.


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    #190
    Msrebeckyxo
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Msrebeckyxo


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Even a notice on the reader you tap on at saying the last zone applicable for travel credit usage would go a long way towards preventing this kind of mistake.

    I'm always very wary using public transport in Dublin, a few years ago the only reason I knew to tap on on the Luas platform rather than on board (like on a bus) was from reading forums on boards. It's not intuitive for someone arriving at a platform. On a bus I asked the driver did it stop at such and such a road and he sarcastically said 'you'll find out'. Haven't used it on a train yet but my one experience of using a DART (where I had to use a compass app on my phone to figure out which platform I needed to board from) hasn't left me very confident of Irish Rail's ability to post clear signage.
    2 ladies got on the luas yesterday at Connolly station, and looked to tap on the luas and the driver told them to tap on the validator. The lady then asked if she could tap two adults on with one card and he said yes. You ant do this, you need an individual card. Nothing to do with what we’re tlaking about but dear Christ if people who work for NTA can’t even give correct info, then what hope do people have? Like tourists?

    Aw sure, waiting to hear back about the appeal but I doubt anything will come from it! Appreciate everyone’s input anyways and hopefully I’ve made some people aware of this anyways!


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    #191
    nxbyveromdwjpg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,402 ✭✭✭nxbyveromdwjpg


    wally79 wrote: »
    That’s fine but what if a genuine person isn’t very believable for some reason or some chancer is great at acting innocent or the inspector is having a bad day

    Why introduce ambiguity

    There is an appeals process where you can present your case

    To run a customer focused service that encourages a satisfied repeat customer base?

    Or they can keep doing it your way - a system almost designed to catch people out, heavy completely out of proportion fines, issued by smug bully-like robotic inspectors with zero people skills (or else are incentivised not to use them) that try to make the people that create the money that pays their wages feel like criminals.

    This why we need competition. If there was a choice, any business run the way you describe it (or defend it) wouldn't survive.


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    #192
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,276 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Billgirlylegs wrote: »
    Utter and complete bull. "If I could find it on Google, so could you". "What do you not understand"

    The system that "they" designed and implemented involves paying money to register on a little plastic card. To get on public transport "their" system requires you to tap a reader. At journeys end you tap another reader and the cost of the journey is deducted from your credit.
    It isn't complicated.
    "They" have not put a reader in Newbridge for some unstated reason. Put a man in a booth at Newbridge and other similarly equipped stations.

    If use of the card doesn't apply to a particular train / service, say so clearly in big letters all over each station.

    Having the card applicable to part of the journey the train takes is preposterous.
    A fine of € 100 plus in the circumstances is preposterous.
    Taking the card is preposterous. What about the money the customer has lodged and can't use.?

    I had to think for a while to find a suitable word.
    I think it's all so preposterous that I used it 3 4 times.

    the reason is quite obvious. If newbridge is not in the LEAP zone why put a leap validator there?


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    #193
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,244 ✭✭✭howiya


    Msrebeckyxo wrote: »
    2 ladies got on the luas yesterday at Connolly station, and looked to tap on the luas and the driver told them to tap on the validator. The lady then asked if she could tap two adults on with one card and he said yes. You ant do this, you need an individual card. Nothing to do with what we’re tlaking about but dear Christ if people who work for NTA can’t even give correct info, then what hope do people have? Like tourists?

    Aw sure, waiting to hear back about the appeal but I doubt anything will come from it! Appreciate everyone’s input anyways and hopefully I’ve made some people aware of this anyways!

    Still using Irish Rail or did you just happen to get on the luas at Connolly?

    The misinformation the staff of public transport companies give out really needs to be tackled and it is real low hanging fruit that could improve their image. There is no real incentive for them to do so because we all still need to get where we're going and continue to use their services.


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    #194
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Camden Angry Nitwit wrote: »
    This why we need competition. If there was a choice, any business run the way you describe it (or defend it) wouldn't survive.

    You think another business would not crack down hard on fare evasion in order to maximise profits?

    I have sympathy for people who make genuine mistakes, but it is kind of irrelevant. I don't know of any revenue enforcer anywhere in the world who cares why you don't have a valid ticket.


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    #195
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the reason is quite obvious. If newbridge is not in the LEAP zone why put a leap validator there?

    You are looking at 2 different services and how they work. There is no "leap zone". It's the boundaries of the short hop zone being disputed. Leap is used outside of it for taxsaver tickets.


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    #196
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    This reminds me of a situation where I thought I'd tagged on but hand't, I had earphones in and had just not heard the beep.  I got to the station and was literally aiming my leap card at the machine when an inspector yanked it out of my hand to read it on her mobile reader and said I'd not tagged on.

    Now if she hadn't been there or had let me do it, it would have charged me the max fare and IE would have made it's money, and I'd have learned a lesson for losing the extra cash.  It would seem to make sense to avoid this to create a national zone system for Leap and have readers everywhere. 
    Go to the Translink website and look at how their ilink cards work it's very similar to that.  They also are miles ahead of IE in innovation with mobile tickets on your phone, they can even let you book a seat on the bus with the travel pass (which for some reason we only allow you to do on the train) and be added to the manifest.
    Their ticket checkers all have the ability to sell a ticket.  It seems to work fine for them.  Liket he LUAS honor system they remarkably get a lot of people volunteering on the train.  Like he'll be going down "anyone need a ticket" (as in he's not CHECKING tickets and if you keep your head down he'll probably walk on - though now and then he'll come right back and do a check) and 4-5 hands will shoot up, pull their bank cards out and he sells them one there and then. 
    I've always said a real United Ireland won't be a cut and paste job if it's to work and be accepted, that we'll have to change the flag and anthem, have our own NHS etc but maybe we should start adopting little things like this from each other as well, if a good idea is working elsehwere why not use it here too?


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    #197
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Their ticket checkers all have the ability to sell a ticket.  It seems to work fine for them.  Liket he LUAS honor system they remarkably get a lot of people volunteering on the train.  Like he'll be going down "anyone need a ticket" (as in he's not CHECKING tickets and if you keep your head down he'll probably walk on - though now and then he'll come right back and do a check) and 4-5 hands will shoot up, pull their bank cards out and he sells them one there and then. 

    So what you are essentially saying, is he is promoting fare evasion?

    Why would anyone bother buying a ticket if they knew if they didn't get checked they would travel for free and the worst that would happen if they were checked they could just buy one? There's no risk of trying to evade a fare whatsoever then.

    The only time people should be able to buy a ticket on-board is if they are travelling from stations which are not staffed and do not have any ticket issuing facilities, otherwise there should not be any option.


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    #198
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    Here take a look:
    http://www.translink.co.uk/Mobile_Home/cards-products/

    ..and for those who spin the old yarn that "No country has a generous a welfare system as us" and frequently cite the UK/NI, they have two travel passes one kicks in at 60:

    http://www.translink.co.uk/Translink-Footer/concession-passes/
    There is no reason not to have a national or at least regional zone system in a country this small.


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    #199
    XPS_Zero
    Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭XPS_Zero


    devnull wrote: »
    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    Their ticket checkers all have the ability to sell a ticket.  It seems to work fine for them.  Liket he LUAS honor system they remarkably get a lot of people volunteering on the train.  Like he'll be going down "anyone need a ticket" (as in he's not CHECKING tickets and if you keep your head down he'll probably walk on - though now and then he'll come right back and do a check) and 4-5 hands will shoot up, pull their bank cards out and he sells them one there and then. 

    So what you are essentially saying, is he is promoting fare evasion?

    Why would anyone bother buying a ticket if they knew if they didn't get checked they would travel for free and the worst that would happen if they were checked they could just buy one? There's no risk of trying to evade a fare whatsoever then.

    The only time people should be able to buy a ticket on-board is if they are travelling from stations which are not staffed and do not have any ticket issuing facilities, otherwise there should not be any option.
    That's what I thought at first.  I noticed I could just walk into a station, there are no validators (i'm NOT saying we do that, if anything they need to be expanded, stations on the DART line like Glastule and Shankill are permanently open for at least 2 years now which is utterly ridiculous.
    I'm saying we should have a system where you can tag on and off anywhere.
    The NIR system they do check the tickets but the same guy lets you buy on board, I've seen at least 20 checks now over the last few years I've only seen one person caught and they were staying on too long rather than having no ticket.  If they had validators WITH the region wide smartcard (and we adopted the all area smart card to add to our validators) you are covered on both fronts.  Getting into the system without paying or having a valid pass/smartcard is much harder AND you still have your inspectors AND no stupid regional crap to police and confuse people.
    Keep in mind Luas has no barriers and does it the way NIR does it - and they still manage to protect their revenue because they have a very aggressive revenue protection team.  They should be targeting people who are intending to defraud the system and not pay their way, not people who make honest mistakes, the entire system should be designed to combat those people, we all know the sort.  The trakkie brigade who just jump the barriers casually.


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    #200
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    Given we’ve strayed way off not having a valid ticket for a journey into a debate about an national leap card zoning system.

    To all the posters suggesting having valid store everywhere, How would that work?

    For example, you’re getting a train from heuston to Sallins which is a service to cork. You will need €60 at least deducted from your leap card as you may extend your journey to cork as per a similar situation to the OP.

    So if you take the same train every day you need to ensure you’ve too much money on your card just to cover those who may decide to extend their journey? Hands up anyone who wants to do that, just in case they might go one or more stations once and feel a fine is too extreme?


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    #201
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Even if a case went to court, your motive would be taken into account. If you didn't intend to defraud the operator and had a simple ticketing mixup, the judge isn't going to be to impressed to see someone pressing charges.

    That’s a very misguided advice note for the OP. If you took this to court, you would likely lose. If you do not pay a legally correct fine (as in this case), there are very limited circumstances where you would successfully convince a judge that you are in the right. But it’s your opinion to make and I’d be interested to see what evidence you can produce to back up your assertion.


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    #202
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    If a passenger turns up with the wrong ticket, you should be trying to rectify that and sell them a supplement or a correct ticket to cover their journey.

    The system in the UK is that if you do not have a ticket because there is no ticket machine facilities of staff facilities then you are required to seek out the inspector and present yourself to them and offer to buy a ticket as this shows an intent to pay for a ticket.
    The difference between someone who's clearly got no ticket and isn't paying vs someone who is willing to pay is huge.

    You are aware that not everyone is honest and a large number of evaders will offer to buy a ticket when challenged to prevent them getting fined, and had no intention of buying a valid ticket before their journey.

    Do you really expect an evader to say to an inspector, no, I don't have a ticket as I was hoping that no inspector would be on the train and I'd travel for free. They'll make up an excuse and say that they want to buy a ticket.
    If you didn't intend to defraud the operator and had a simple ticketing mixup, the judge isn't going to be to impressed to see someone pressing charges.

    Do you really expect any fare evader to admit to intending to defraud the operator even if they actually did intend to do that? You seem to believe that all humans are 100% honest, 100% of the time. Newsflash. They're not.


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    #203
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,593 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Don't feed the trolls - if a post breaks the rules, report it and do not engage or resort to biting back.

    - Moderator


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    #204
    cml387
    Registered Users Posts: 8,389 ✭✭✭cml387


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    What would be reasonable would be to allow a confused passenger to pay the correct fare and explain the situation properly.

    All they need to say is "This is Blahblah station. This is the final stop on the Leap Card system. Passengers traveling beyond this point need an appropriate ticket. If you do not have a ticket, please exit the train here. Leap card is not valid beyond this station. "

    They make such clear announcements on the edge of the Oyster Card system for example.

    Err I don't think this is universal. Having travelled to Stansted yesterday there was indeed a notice on the departures board saying that Oyster wasn't valid beyond (I think) Tottenham Hale, but there was no on-train announcement.


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    #205
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    HonalD wrote: »
    That’s a very misguided advice note for the OP. If you took this to court, you would likely lose. If you do not pay a legally correct fine (as in this case), there are very limited circumstances where you would successfully convince a judge that you are in the right. But it’s your opinion to make and I’d be interested to see what evidence you can produce to back up your assertion.

    My advice was to appeal the fine and also to raise the issue with local TDs etc

    I did *not* advise not paying it.

    What I did say is that in a normal interaction with the judicial system here there is an opportunity to explain the circumstances and there is a human factor. Judges aren't machines and will look at circumstances.

    It's an expensive and risky approach, given the small fine involved.

    However, I would suggest the OP absolutely appeals this and copies the local TDs in on all correspondence to and from the company.

    The communication issues need to be addressed and people need to be confident that they can take the train and understand ticketing.

    Anyway that's all I'm saying on the issue as I'm clearly never going to convince people here that a customer oriented system is better than one that behaves like a 1950s school teacher trying to catch people who don't have their homework done.


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    #206
    howiya
    Registered Users Posts: 3,244 ✭✭✭howiya


    HonalD wrote: »
    Given we’ve strayed way off not having a valid ticket for a journey into a debate about an national leap card zoning system.

    To all the posters suggesting having valid store everywhere, How would that work?

    For example, you’re getting a train from heuston to Sallins which is a service to cork. You will need €60 at least deducted from your leap card as you may extend your journey to cork as per a similar situation to the OP.

    So if you take the same train every day you need to ensure you’ve too much money on your card just to cover those who may decide to extend their journey? Hands up anyone who wants to do that, just in case they might go one or more stations once and feel a fine is too extreme?

    Why does it need to be a leap card? How about letting people use their debit cards? The idea that you need to transfer money from your bank account/wallet to a closed loop card is completely outdated. It'd be like walking into a shopping centre and not being allowed buy anything until you put money on the equivalent of a shopping centre gift card.

    Take the train from Heuston to Thurles. I've never been asked for a ticket although I always have one. Train arrives in Thurles and people can just walk out into the car park without IR ever knowing if they had a valid ticket for the journey.

    Even if we keep the system the same as it is presently, all stations should require a valid ticket to exit the platform area.


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    #207
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    XPS_Zero wrote: »
    That's what I thought at first.  I noticed I could just walk into a station, there are no validators (i'm NOT saying we do that, if anything they need to be expanded, stations on the DART line like Glastule and Shankill are permanently open for at least 2 years now which is utterly ridiculous.
    I'm saying we should have a system where you can tag on and off anywhere.
    The NIR system they do check the tickets but the same guy lets you buy on board, I've seen at least 20 checks now over the last few years I've only seen one person caught and they were staying on too long rather than having no ticket.  If they had validators WITH the region wide smartcard (and we adopted the all area smart card to add to our validators) you are covered on both fronts.  Getting into the system without paying or having a valid pass/smartcard is much harder AND you still have your inspectors AND no stupid regional crap to police and confuse people.
    Keep in mind Luas has no barriers and does it the way NIR does it - and they still manage to protect their revenue because they have a very aggressive revenue protection team.  They should be targeting people who are intending to defraud the system and not pay their way, not people who make honest mistakes, the entire system should be designed to combat those people, we all know the sort.  The trakkie brigade who just jump the barriers casually.

    If you introduce a buy on board ticket system then there could also be a risk of hold ups where someone boards the train with a weapon and threatens the conductor/guard to give over the cash just like there was when there used to be cash on board DB buses before autofare was introduced this would not only hurt company revenue but more importantly put staff and passenger safety at risk.

    I think IE does need to introduce e-tickets for all services as they would be very handy and is behind the times in this regard.


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    #208
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    Considering that there is nowadays hardly anyone who doesn't have a Visa / Mastercard debit card, it could easily be done on a cards-only basis. There's no need to do all this cash handling stuff.


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    #209
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    EdgeCase wrote: »
    Considering that there is nowadays hardly anyone who doesn't have a Visa / Mastercard debit card, it could easily be done on a cards-only basis. There's no need to do all this cash handling stuff.

    True but you could use of contactless instead with readers at every station.


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    #210
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    You could do, but I would assume the cheapest rollout would just be some kind of handheld ticket machine with card functionality to just process fixed amounts.

    At present, the banking system is still pretty brutally slow, so things like putting a temporary hold of say €10 or €20 on a card while a journey is in progress could turn out to be something that takes 24 hours or more to drop off as most of the banks still batch-process over night and can't handle true real-time transactions. That would make tag on / tag off type scenarios very cumbersome as you could end up with money on hold for considerable lengths of time.


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    #211
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    devnull wrote: »
    The system in the UK is that if you do not have a ticket because there is no ticket machine facilities of staff facilities then you are required to seek out the inspector and present yourself to them and offer to buy a ticket as this shows an intent to pay for a ticket.

    A friend of mine is an inspector for Transdev, who worked on board trains as a travelling checker. A few years ago I had to travel in the North beyond Belfast and asked him how things worked. He told me that you either have to buy a ticket prior to boarding or to specifically offer to buy a ticket from a checker before they ask you for same. If you have not done either one of these two then you have evaded a fare as per their bye laws and are liable for a standard fare ticket. What NIR actually do is contrary to what a few posters have claimed that they do on within this thread yet they have proffered it as being something that Irish Rail should copy.

    And for the record Central is generally manned at the gate so it's no ticket no board.


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