Leap card misuse- fine!

Msrebeckyxo

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

magicbastarder

hang on - you'd tagged on, but as you were getting off in newbridge, he wasn't going to accept a tagged on leap card as valid?

L1011

magicbastarder wrote: »

hang on - you'd tagged on, but as you were getting off in newbridge, he wasn't going to accept a tagged on leap card as valid?

Newbridge is not in the Leap zone. Sallins was only recently added

There is realistically no chance of the appeal succeeding

Stephen15

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Hi! So today I was getting a train from heuston to portlaoise. I was getting off in newbridge which is new for me as I normally get off at sallins however I was meeting my mam.
So a ticket inspector got on and asked for a ticket and I proceeded to tell him I had my leap card etc, he went on to tell me that I needed a ticket as there is no leap card validator in Newbridge. I told him I was unaware of this etc as there’s one in sallins which is 5 mins Before newbridge, and there’s no posters or advertisements to say otherwise. I
I got fined 113 euros and leap card was taken which is annoying as I’ve my exams in college the next 4 days.
I commute from Clane to and from Killester 4 days a week, so use the luas, Dublin bus and the dart most days. Irish rail is used probably in a blue moon, think last time I used it was 3 weeks ago. But I’m very good at tapping on and off etc which they can view in my receipts.
I’ve sent an email to appeal but what do you think will be the outcome? Just can’t really understand why I’ve been fined as I did tap on, I paid my fare, just didn’t understand that there wouldn’t be a validator!
Thanks

The Dart is Irish Rail so if you use the DART every day you use Irish Rail everyday.

Back on topic the fine sounded like it may be a little harsh and they probably should have let you off but at the end of the day you did break the rules, Leap is not valid for Newbridge I think it should be but that's a debate for a different day. Your appeal won't work and the fine will still stand however harsh.

Msrebeckyxo

Sorry I meant I don’t use Irish rail as in commuter services (not dart)! Aw I was so annoyed about it, if the appeal isn’t successful which it won’t be, I’ll offer to pay a tenner a week which will probably be a problem with them but seriously I don’t have the money and I think it’s a stupid fine, can take me to court if they want to but just think that amount for a student to pay is gas

DesperateDan

What are you supposed to do in this situation? Buy a full ticket from Heuston or get off at the last leap card stop and buy a ticket from there? How is a bloody tourist supposed to know that. Also I'm intrigued that they can just take your leap card off you like that. Fairly ridiculous all together.

Msrebeckyxo

DesperateDan wrote: »

What are you supposed to do in this situation? Buy a full ticket from Heuston or get off at the last leap card stop and buy a ticket from there? How is a bloody tourist supposed to know that. Also I'm intrigued that they can just take your leap card off you like that. Fairly ridiculous all together.

Yes I was quite confused by that! the Fact that he’s added 13.50 onto my fine as that’s the fare from heuston to newbridge made me laugh. You’d swear I didn’t tap on or pay any money at all! Like it was a genuine mistake and exactly, like if I, someone who always uses public transport didn’t know that, how could a tourist know?
And I think they took it from me just incase this whole thing goes to court etc. very annoying now as I’ll be paying the guts of a tenner/ for my last 4 days of college so 40 euros for literally 4 exams all 2 hours long each

RossieMan

The fact that you're a student is irrelevant to the fine.
Done understand why your leap card got taken, keep the receipts of your tickets, you might be able to get the money for those given your card was taken from you.

heroics

why would they take your leap card? As above I very rarely use public transport but how would I know I cant use leap for Newbridge but I can for Sallins?

Msrebeckyxo

heroics wrote: »

why would they take your leap card? As above I very rarely use public transport but how would I know I cant use leap for Newbridge but I can for Sallins?

Not sure why they took it tbh! Just said for evidence, probably to see how often I use the card etc
It never occurred to me that there would be a problem with using it in newbridge atall, I was told “leap card is for short hop journeys only” however sallins and newbridge is 7k(5 mins) away so I don’t understand it atall

RossieMan

What do you not understand? It's not in the leap zone. Sallins was recently added. Newbridge is not.
You're in the wrong I'm afraid.

liger

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

You’d swear I didn’t tap on or pay any money at all! Like it was a genuine mistake and exactly, like if I, someone who always uses public transport didn’t know that, how could a tourist know?

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

Msrebeckyxo

liger wrote: »

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

Appreciate that I’ve made a mistake but no need to be smart, thanks.
My problem is that leap works in celbridge and sallins and not a further five minutes up the road. I didn’t know that. If I thought it would’ve been a problem I would’ve googled it. They saw I was tapped on. And if the leap card worked there it wouldn’t have cost me any extra. 3.90 was taken out of my account so I wouldn’t have got any money back if I tapped off in newbridge (if it worked).
Thanks for your input, I’ll pay my fine in installments.

TallGlass

What I would like to know, and I would get in touch with Irish Rail about it. If the leap card isn't recognised out that area, why did he take your card? He could have taken your bank card for that matter.

Secondly, under what power/law did he use to take your personal property? I don't believe he acted lawfully in seizing your Leap card, as I can't see any law to say they can seize any property.

heroics

liger wrote: »

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

Your analogy is wrong btw. Do you ever hurt yourself falling of that high horse?

Anyway without googling I would have presumed I could use leap card to newbridge.

I suppose bigger question is why someone can't use leap card anywhere on the Irish rail network.

Msrebeckyxo

TallGlass wrote: »

What I would like to know, and I would get in touch with Irish Rail about it. If the leap card isn't recognised out that area, why did he take your card? He could have taken your bank card for that matter.

Secondly, under what power/law did he use to take your personal property? I don't believe he acted lawfully in seizing your Leap card, as I can't see any law to say they can seize any property.

Not too sure tbh! Perhaps leap cards are property of the NTA (National Transport Authority) and the money on the card is my property? I haven’t a clue, that was the icing on the cake anyways for me hahaha, proper riled me up

Bob24

While the OP made a mistake, to be fair there is an issue with a ticket validation system which lets you access a train with a public transport payment card but doesn’t let you exit that same train with the card you used to access it.

I don’t care about the information being available online. It is illogical and is bound to confuse people, especially tourists.

Leap card validators should be either available at all platforms used to access a given train, or at none of them.

ams

So annoying - hopefully you can appeal it. I would definitely write them a letter and set out what happened and that you had no idea you couldn't tag off in that station. Its worth a try.

Msrebeckyxo

Bob24 wrote: »

While the OP made a mistake, to be fair there is an issue with a ticket validation system which lets you access a train with a public transport payment card but doesn’t let you exist that same train with the card you used to access it.

I don’t care about the information being available online. It is illogical and is bound to confuse people, especially tourists.

Leap cards validators should be either available at all platforms used to access a given train, or at none of them.

Exactly, that’s my problem with the whole thing. Either accept the leap card for all of the stations on that train line or don’t accept them in any of the stations

Msrebeckyxo

ams wrote: »

So annoying - hopefully you can appeal it. I would definitely write them a letter and set out what happened and that you had no idea you couldn't tag off in that station. Its worth a try.

Sent them an email late last night so Hopefully may hear something but tbh I’d say I’ll be refused an appeal

Victor

DesperateDan wrote: »

How is a bloody tourist supposed to know that.

Read the rules of using Leap Card?

https://about.leapcard.ie/dublin

Leap Card Dublin
Leap Card can be used to pay for travel in Dublin and its surrounding counties on the following services:

...

Train and Tram:
All Luas services
All DART & Commuter Rail services within the Dublin area “Short-Hop zone”

http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

DART and Short Hop Zone includes all stations in the Dublin area from Kilcoole to Balbriggan, from Dublin City Centre stations to Kilcock and from Dublin Heuston to Sallins and Naas including all DART services.

TallGlass

Victor wrote: »

Read the rules of using Leap Card?

https://about.leapcard.ie/dublin

http://www.irishrail.ie/fares-and-tickets/dart

Victor, I don't have a Leap card, and to me that is confusing.

Should this part not read then;

'Leap Card can be used to pay for travel in Dublin and its surrounding counties on the following services'

This

'Leap Card can be used to pay for travel in Dublin and its surrounding short hop zones on the following services'

The term counties is a bit misleading seen as you can't use it in the entire county just the short hop zone.

Seems like a half arsed effort at integration if you ask me.

liger

liger wrote: »

That reminds me of the time i went to the self service checkout in the supermarket, I Accidentally only scanned 4 of my 7 items and they got all annoyed and said I was stealing... like a total overreaction, I paid for SOME of the shopping.

Also most people have Google in their pocket. took me 15seconds to see Newbridge wasn't a valid stop for you.

Not a valid comparison, despite how sarky you want it to sound. It would be like going to use the self-checkout and discovering that certain items can only be paid for elsewhere, then being arrested for stealing before being offered a chance to rectify the situation.

Ideally, he should have offered you the opportunity to pay the full fare there and then (or to get off at the earlier stop, if possible). I understand that there are chancers who will try and do this on the regular, but all it takes is a bit more effort on IR's part to police that.

Fine is a bit much, for a first mistake. Again, it could be difficult to differentiate between genuine mistakes and people taking the piss. There are people who will say "it is the ticket holder's responsibility to make sure blah blah blah...." but a bit of sympathy wouldn't go amiss.

Msrebeckyxo

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not a valid comparison, despite how sarky you want it to sound. It would be like going to use the self-checkout and discovering that certain items can only be paid for elsewhere, then being arrested for stealing before being offered a chance to rectify the situation.

Ideally, he should have offered you the opportunity to pay the full fare there and then (or to get off at the earlier stop, if possible). I understand that there are chancers who will try and do this on the regular, but all it takes is a bit more effort on IR's part to police that.

Fine is a bit much, for a first mistake. Again, it could be difficult to differentiate between genuine mistakes and people taking the piss. There are people who will say "it is the ticket holder's responsibility to make sure blah blah blah...." but a bit of sympathy wouldn't go amiss.

I wouldn’t have had a problem paying the12.50 fare there and then, wish I could’ve done that I feel they tar everyone with the same brush which is very annoying. Hopefully they check my leap card anyways and see that I’m consistent in how I use it etc, might help my case. Sure we’ll see I guess!

schemingbohemia

Bob24 wrote: »

While the OP made a mistake, to be fair there is an issue with a ticket validation system which lets you access a train with a public transport payment card but doesn’t let you exit that same train with the card you used to access it.

I don’t care about the information being available online. It is illogical and is bound to confuse people, especially tourists.

Leap card validators should be either available at all platforms used to access a given train, or at none of them.

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Exactly, that’s my problem with the whole thing. Either accept the leap card for all of the stations on that train line or don’t accept them in any of the stations

So staying on the train to Cork or Limerick or Killarney or Galway? Or having a separate platform for those trains that have human ticket checkers?

It really is up to the user to check if they're entitled to use their ticket, especially when making a different journey to their normal one. The OP goes to somewhere on the DART line, so if she got off in Drogheda (same line) would she think that's ok? Should she not check?

Xterminator

Hi Op

Im not sure if you understand this, but it is your obligation to have a valid ticket for your journey. It is not IE's obligation to educate everyone who might travel with them, etc. So i can have sympathy for you, but no mistake was made in this case. IE have applied the rules correctly. you should pay the fixed fare and accept that you failed to produce a valid ticket.

im confused it not valid grounds for appeal.

Bob24

schemingbohemia wrote: »

So staying on the train to Cork or Limerick or Killarney or Galway? Or having a separate platform for those trains that have human ticket checkers?

It really is up to the user to check if they're entitled to use their ticket, especially when making a different journey to their normal one. The OP goes to somewhere on the DART line, so if she got off in Drogheda (same line) would she think that's ok? Should she not check?

It is a simple matter of organisation for Irish Rail and there is no need for human ticket checkers.

Either they decide that leap card payment will be accepted at all stations for a given line. Or they decide it won’t be accepted at any station; and if that line goes through stations which have a mix of leap card service and non-leap card service, they need to have two separate areas in those stations (one with leap card validators and on with national lines ticket validators).

No rocket science and the way it is done in most countries I have been to.

BarryD2

RossieMan wrote: »

What do you not understand? It's not in the leap zone. Sallins was recently added. Newbridge is not. You're in the wrong I'm afraid.

She may or may not be wrong but regardless clearly the Irish Rail inspector who did this is a complete asshole.

First rule of business is not to upset your customers and if the facts are true, it is clear that the passenger had paid a valid fare and made an understandable mistake. A simple point of information for future reference was all the inspector needed to deliver.

But then IR is not a business per se that has it's customers interests at heart. If this inspector actually had to rely on the income he derived from his passengers, they would have a quite different attitude. But their wages are propped up by heavy state subsidy.

My advice if the OP has the inspector's name, is to write to IR and explain the story. At very least, this employee should be reprimanded and docked some of their wages.

goingnowhere

Leap card is not valid at Newbridge, it's never been valid and its 8 miles away from Sallins
No valid ticket, penalty fare applies
100 euro + the fare due the for journey made

Retention of the leap card is permitted by the T&C's in case of fraudulent use and for inspection to see if this journey consistently undertaken.

Inspector did his/her job per the rules.

The cost of fraudulent travel is significant and the fare paying passenger is paying

RossieMan

BarryD2 wrote:

My advice if the OP has the inspector's name, is to write to IR and explain the story. At very least, this employee should be reprimanded and docked some of their wages.

BarryD2 wrote:

But then IR is not a business per se that has it's customers interests at heart. If this inspector actually had to rely on the income he derived from his passengers, they would have a quite different attitude. But their wages are propped up by heavy state subsidy.

Docked pay for what? Following the rules?

He's done his job to the letter, what you're asking is for him to not follow the rules and give the person a break. He doesn't need or have to do this. The OP is clearly at fault here.

Bob24

OSI wrote: »

Not the OP's property:

Not the OP’s property indeed, but I don’t see anything in what you quoted giving an Irish Rail ticket inspector the authority to confiscate a leap card on a train?

It essentially says that the card is the property of the NTA and they reserve the right to cancel or withdraw it with a duty for the holder to return it to the NTA in such circumpstances. It doesn’t give Irish Rail any authority to confiscate a card on the spot under any circonstance. Or am I missing something?