Leap card misuse- fine!

Dravokivich

KyussB wrote: »

It works in Northern Ireland. You buy the ticket right on the train.

If it's good enough up there, it's good enough for here. You're presenting a theoretical/speculative problem, to counter the factual reality of it working up North.

You're required to have a ticket before boarding a train, unless the facility to do so is not available where you boarded.

EdgeCase

Because someone's making a customer unfriendly mess out of it.

Dravokivich

EdgeCase wrote: »

Because someone's making a customer unfriendly mess out of it.

How is it? The appeal process is very clear. It should not be for the RPU to decide on the spot.

Msrebeckyxo

Dravokivich wrote: »

How can it never once occur to you to look up the journey? Why wait until you are on the train? You have to get by a barrier first at Hueston. That requires a ticket or leap card to open.

Tagging on and going through is just like the Dublin bus scenario of paying the minimum fare I mentioned.

If this has put you off using Irish rail, I find it a bit bemusing because the issue you have with them is of your own making.

Erm, a number of people evade fares from heuston, which I’ve witnessed many times, so there’s many ways in doing it. It didn’t occur to me because I’ve gotten the train to sallins many times before, so didn’t think there would be a difference.

Dravokivich

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Erm, a number of people evade fares from heuston, which I’ve witnessed many times, so there’s many ways in doing it. It didn’t occur to me because I’ve gotten the train to sallins many times before, so didn’t think there would be a difference.

When did you start using it? Its hard to accept familliarity as Sallins was only put into the short hop zone last year.

Msrebeckyxo

Dravokivich wrote: »

When did you start using it? Its hard to accept familliarity as Sallins was only put into the short hop zone last year.

I’ve had a leap card since 2016 for Dublin bus. I think Sallins was added in 2016

EdgeCase

Dravokivich wrote: »

How is it? The appeal process is very clear. It should not be for the RPU to decide on the spot.

Because it isn't clear. Otherwise the customer wouldn't be in this predicament.

Keep defending the indefensible if you like. It's stuff like this that drives people away from your service.

Most people boarding a train have very little idea of how the fare strufitr works. They just want to get from point a to point b

BarryD2

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So you are suggesting that somebody be be more careful or even fired for doing precisely what their job entails them to do in the first place.

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by 'doing precisely what their job entails'?

This young lady was a fare paying passenger, she had a valid Leap card, she'd tagged on, she made an understandable mistake etc etc.

I would expect that the job of an inspector in this instance is not to p*ss off your customers who are paying for your services. That should be their job, first and foremost.

If they find someone who has no valid ticket or have evidence that they are repeatedly abusing the t&cs of tickets, then a fine and removal from the service as required is fine.

I run a small business. Occasionally issues are raised with or by customers. I always aim to resolve these and take customers at their word. Very occasionally someone maybe chancing their arm, but on the whole I find people honest.

HonalD

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

Dravokivich wrote: »

Leap was always planned to be nationwide. They just did it in phases.



Yeah... by buying those things I believe are called "Tickets" in some places. Will never catch on here though.



That doesn't matter. You're just trying to reason down and minimize the impact overrunning a service has. When I use something, I look up what it'll cost, how I'll pay and how I'll use it. Dublin Bus had a big promo a few years back because of people paying the minimum fare and doing extended journeys. You think not knowing they should have paid more will cut it? As essentially that's what the OP's issue is. They never checked how to pay for the journey they made. Irish Rail don't hide the information. Every part of their website includes a button you can press that will take you to a journey planner with ticket options and a means to assess your fare. There are ticket vending machines all over Heuston, which the OP could have easily walked to and tapped in Origin / Destination. There is also a staffed information desk. And you have to walk pass someone to gain entry to the platforms. There was no lack of options for them to verify what was needed.

That’s true, but my point in all of this is, it’s not clear on the train etc whether leap is available on the entire train journey. If I felt the need to look it up I would’ve. It never occurred to me that a five minute journey from sallins to newbridge would be the such an expensive difference between leap and no leap.
I’ve made a mistake. I’ve sent in an appeal. I will pay my fine in installments (because no way I can afford 113 euros). I think it’s a very costly fine in which I made a genuine mistake, explained my situation. I wasn’t trying to evade the fares etc, I paid on my leap card. If I really wanted to not pay, I wouldn’t have tapped on and hopped on for free.
But sure st least this whole situation may have educated some people on this forum.
I’m getting in touch with a local td who is responsible for bringing things up to Irish rail. Hopefully something may happen with having their rules for leap on trains or over intercoms or even just a feckin map in the station to say where the leap card works.
As I’ve said, I won’t be going with Irish rail again. I think what happened was a bit of a shambles where I felt I was made a fool out of. Another inspector came on and I just felt they had such a sh**ty attitude towards me.
But sure they were just doing their jobs, just felt it couldve been handled better, or I could’ve paid the 12.50 difference there and then.
Learnt from my mistakes anyways!

Are you sure you’ve learnt anything from this discussion? You are adamant that in your case, the inspectors should have let you travel without penalty.

On the point of announcements, how many people use earphones on trains? So an announcement is not going to make a difference.....”sure I didn’t hear it your honor”.....and a map in the station???

It’s ok to be upset for getting caught but it’s not anyone else’s fault........or is personal responsibility for ones actions too much to ask for?

Anyway, as I said, you’re not using Irish Rail again so it’s a mute discussion.

Cakerbaker

Can you walk out of the station in Newbridge without a ticket or do you need to put a ticket through a machine for the barrier to open?

The max charge on a leap card is €4.90. A single to Newbridge is about €14.50. That’s over a €9 saving per trip if you scan on in Heuston and go on to Newbridge. While I’m sure some like the OP have travelled on by accident without knowing, it wouldn’t surprise me if people chance this regularly seeing as there is such a large fare difference so it’s understandable that the inspectors would be strict.

HonalD

BarryD2 wrote: »

Losty Dublin wrote: »

So you are suggesting that somebody be be more careful or even fired for doing precisely what their job entails them to do in the first place.

Doesn't that depend on what you mean by 'doing precisely what their job entails'?

This young lady was a fare paying passenger, she had a valid Leap card, she'd tagged on, she made an understandable mistake etc etc.

I would expect that the job of an inspector in this instance is not to p*ss off your customers who are paying for your services. That should be their job, first and foremost.

If they find someone who has no valid ticket or have evidence that they are repeatedly abusing the t&cs of tickets, then a fine and removal from the service as required is fine.

I run a small business. Occasionally issues are raised with or by customers. I always aim to resolve these and take customers at their word. Very occasionally someone maybe chancing their arm, but on the whole I find people honest.

How much discretion do you think is written into the roles and responsibilities of inspectors? None. Enforcement roles are not attractive jobs for the faint hearted.

Calina

The fair difference between Sallins and Newbridge is ridiculous.

As a general note the fare/ticketing system should be easy and fool proof to use. If it is hard and requires research on the web then it is not adequate to passenger needs. If it is easy to make mistakes then that should be rectified. Ireland should be making it easy and attractive for people to use. Provide a fool proof system and then get bolshy about enforcement. Don't be precious about what the customers should know. Make it impossible for them to make mistakes. And don't assume prior knowledge.

Dravokivich

EdgeCase wrote: »

Because it isn't clear. Otherwise the customer wouldn't be in this predicament.

Keep defending the indefensible if you like. It's stuff like this that drives people away from your service.

Most people boarding a train have very little idea of how the fare strufitr works. They just want to get from point a to point b

What isn't clear? They did not get on the wrong train.

Also, it's not my service.

So what if most people are going from point A to point B, when they plan to deviate, I'd hazard a guess they look it up to see what they are getting themselves in for.

Calina wrote: »

The fair difference between Sallins and Newbridge is ridiculous.

As a general note the fare/ticketing system should be easy and fool proof to use. If it is hard and requires research on the web then it is not adequate to passenger needs. If it is easy to make mistakes then that should be rectified. Ireland should be making it easy and attractive for people to use. Provide a fool proof system and then get bolshy about enforcement. Don't be precious about what the customers should know. Make it impossible for them to make mistakes. And don't assume prior knowledge.

It isn't complicated. It's based entirely on Origin / Destination. You don't need to memorise any charts, or align your star within the zodiac. Just buy a ticket.

Losty Dublin

Msrebeckyxo wrote: »

I’ve had a leap card since 2016 for Dublin bus. I think Sallins was added in 2016

What sort of a Leapcard and ticket were you traveling on?

Muttley_666

I sympathise with you totally. Here's why....

If the train was "Heuston to Sallins" only, and only 1 method to pay then everyone will HAVE to have the proper ticket, and everyone will use ticket validators. But it doesn't - this is Irish Rails fault.

If the gates in every station worked 100% of the time, which they don't in Sallins (walk on access), Park West (walk on access after 3pm and at weekends) and elsewhere - then everyone will HAVE to have the proper ticket, and everyone will use ticket validators. But it doesn't - this is Irish Rails fault.

If the penalty for not having the right ticket was the opportunity to buy a ticket for the gap fare (in this case, €5 from Sallins > Newbridge ??) before you left the station - then I'm good with this. But having your ticket confiscated ? Madness. I know in this case you had four days left, and you are hoping to use receipts to get fares re-imbursed, but don't hold your breath. Imagine if this was a yearly ticket for the Short Hop Zone and you were two weeks into using it. Enforcement Officer takes ticket and keeps it for 3 weeks - if someone uses the train twice a day 5 days a week thats 150 quid out of pocket, on top of the fine etc. But if they use the train four times a day (maybe you drop a kid to school near Hueston and come back, and go back in the evening to collect them) and then use the train at weekends it could be as much as €400.

If there was ONE sign on the network to say Sallins was in SHZ, and Newbridge WASN'T. That's okay. Don't give me the "look it up on Google Argument". This is Irish Rail's fault.

Best of luck with local TD respresenting you. Willie in the coffee shop is a good soul to talk to as well :-)

HonalD

Ok, I’ve got to try and curb this now.

Let’s have two queues, those who want to bash Irish Rail and enforcement staff to the left;
Those who want to ignore bylaws for using public transport and believe that the OP is a persecuted victim to the right.

Anyone with a realistic understanding of the situation, move on, nothing to see here......and that’s me done.....as I pull out the last of my hair!

Cakerbaker

Cakerbaker wrote: »

It’s over €10. Leap card single from Heuston to Sallins is around €3.70. It’s something like €14.50 for a single ticket to Newbridge.

That's pretty crazy in itself. Sallins to Newbridge ticket is only €6 according to here. Or the same price as, say, Pearse to Balbriggan.

vrusinov

So the prudent customer will take a Leap to Sallins, jump of the train and get the ticket for one station?

Makes perfect sense.

HonalD

HonalD wrote: »

Ok, I’ve got to try and curb this now.

Let’s have two queues, those who want to bash Irish Rail and enforcement staff to the left;
Those who want to ignore bylaws for using public transport and believe that the OP is a persecuted victim to the right.

Anyone with a realistic understanding of the situation, move on, nothing to see here......and that’s me done.....as I pull out the last of my hair!

How about two separate queues:

1 for the jobsworths who will stand there and scream "Ignorantia juris non excusat or ignorantia legis neminem excusat"
2 for those that realise to err is human and a bit of cop on will go a long way

In reality, how much would they lose from letting the odd mistake slide?

@Vrusinov: you can buy it before boarding, but yeah, it's cheaper to do that

Calina

Dravokivich wrote: »

It isn't complicated. It's based entirely on Origin / Destination. You don't need to memorise any charts, or align your star within the zodiac. Just buy a ticket.

Okay. Here is simple.

2E buys you 2 hours unlimited travel on any form of transport regardless of operator on the territory. 4E gets you 24 hours.

Now you can get city specific monthly card or you can get a card valid for entire country all modes operator. Or you can preload a mobility card with individual short or daily tickets or multiples of them.

What is simple is all routes are covered by leap or no routes are covered by leap. If you are going to be non-straightforward then you should make it as EASY as possible for passengers to comply. You don't loudly signpost where Leap validity stops because you have a hybrid system, that is user unfriendly. And the ladt time I was in Heuston in April I do not remember seeing Leap is not valid beyond Sallins anywhere. Irish Rail coukd put it on the displays on the platforms. They could include it in in-train announcements. I get told reminded not to put my feet on seats. Maybe we could remind people that leapcards are not valid beyond Sallins on appropriate trains.

Newbridge is in the commuter zone. I would argue it is ridiculous that it is not leap enabled.

Bob24

Dravokivich wrote: »

It isn't complicated. It's based entirely on Origin / Destination. You don't need to memorise any charts, or align your star within the zodiac. Just buy a ticket.

Problem is that the information on which station is covered is not easy to find yet the system assumes everyone knows it.

Honestly if the people here who think it’s fine were going to a foreign country as tourists where they don’t know the language, and where this arrangement is in place with no signage anywhere and got caught by an inspector because they didn’t know ... you can be sure 99% of them would be cursing at that stupid country which lets you access a train with the card you just purchased at the station and then fines you for being on that train because you were supposed to have looked up the website of the operator, seen that the card is only useable on that train in a “short hop zone”, and done more googling to figure out if you destination is included in the zone - possibly all that in a language you don’t understand.

EdgeCase

I'm actually not replying anymore.

If this is this is what Irish Rail think "customer service" is, they're clearly confused.

From a consumer's point of view these kinds of situations come across as unfair traps / a company that is looking for an excuse to punish and fine paying customers.

You can tackle fare evasion without being so inflexible that you punish passengers who've made errors due to poorly communicated and over complicated ticketing systems.

A normal rail customer couldn't give a hoot what the fare structure is - they aren’t going around paying attention to the minutiae of CIE T&Cs nor should they have to. A good system would be self explanatory and supported by clear communication. This one clearly isn’t.

However, I might as well be posting in Swedish as trying to explain that on here!

Dravokivich

Calina wrote: »

Okay. Here is simple.

2E buys you 2 hours unlimited travel on any form of transport regardless of operator on the territory. 4E gets you 24 hours.

Now you can get city specific monthly card or you can get a card valid for entire country all modes operator. Or you can preload a mobility card with individual short or daily tickets or multiples of them.

What is simple is all routes are covered by leap or no routes are covered by leap. If you are going to be non-straightforward then you should make it as EASY as possible for passengers to comply. You don't loudly signpost where Leap validity stops because you have a hybrid system, that is user unfriendly. And the ladt time I was in Heuston in April I do not remember seeing Leap is not valid beyond Sallins anywhere. Irish Rail coukd put it on the displays on the platforms. They could include it in in-train announcements. I get told reminded not to put my feet on seats. Maybe we could remind people that leapcards are not valid beyond Sallins on appropriate trains.

Newbridge is in the commuter zone. I would argue it is ridiculous that it is not leap enabled.

You claim something is complicated, but instead of saying why, you go forth in presenting something that is incredibly simple and ask me to dispute it's simplicity? Where is the difficulty now?

It's exclusion from the short hop zone is only trivial now as a result of being extended to Sallins last year. What next from there, Portarlington? Should the short hop zone be extended North to Drogheda, North West to Longford and South to Gorey? I think you are setting higher expectations than what should be the scope of the service. These are not Dublin Suburbs and it's nonsense to expect a Dublin Suburb service half way across a neighbouring county.

There are Taxsaver tickets available on Leap that do point to point. So regular commuters are covered under Leap.

Bob24 wrote: »

Problem is that the information on which station is covered is not easy to find yet the system assumes everyone knows it.

Honestly if the people here who think it’s fine where going to a foreign country as tourists where they don’t know the language, and where this arrangement is in place with no signage anywhere and got caught by an inspector because they didn’t know ... you can be sure 99% of them would be cursing at that stupid country which lets you access a train with the card you just purchased at the station and then fines you for being on that train because you were supposed to have looked up the website of the operator, seen that the card is only useable on that train in a “short hop zone”, and they done more googling to figure out if you destination is included in they zone - possibly all that in a language you don’t understand.

What is so hard about finding it? One is faced with no greater difficulty than not even trying in the first place.

Tourists tend to get the visitor leap card. which should have the relevant information with it. They also tend to lookup time tables and query valid tickets. So I don't get why you are pushing this is an issue, when it was not a tourist who was caught unaware. And not for a lack of the information being available.

I've never had issues with finding relevant train details in foreign countries, in foreign languages that I didn't even know. If I was unsure of the information, I've generally asked someone about it. It isn't really all that hard.

Every step of the way in Heuston you have a means to obtain this information.

Bob24

Dravokivich wrote: »

Every step of the way in Heuston you have a means to obtain this information.

I find that statement a bit strange.

There isn’t any obvious sign explaining this at the leap card machines, at the validators, on the platforms, or anywhere else in the station.

I’m not an Irish Rail badger in any way but I really don’t understand how people can side with them on this. How hard would it be to put up a few signs at the platform with a warning sign and the list of stations covers by Leap Card?

devnull

Muttley_666 wrote: »

If the gates in every station worked 100% of the time, which they don't in Sallins (walk on access), Park West (walk on access after 3pm and at weekends) and elsewhere - then everyone will HAVE to have the proper ticket, and everyone will use ticket validators. But it doesn't - this is Irish Rails fault.

You do realise it is possible to work gates even if you don't have a tagged on smart card? There are plenty of people who will use this method to stop them getting fined in the rare occasions that there are inspectors there or that the gates are actually closed?

If the penalty for not having the right ticket was the opportunity to buy a ticket for the gap fare (in this case, €5 from Sallins > Newbridge ??) before you left the station - then I'm good with this.

So what you are saying is that you will remove any kind of incentive to have a valid ticket, since when challenged you will be able to buy one anyway and if you are not challenged you simply can evade to your hearts content?

Essentially you're encouraging fare evasion.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

Honestly if the people here who think it’s fine were going to a foreign country as tourists where they don’t know the language, and where this arrangement is in place with no signage anywhere and got caught by an inspector because they didn’t know ... you can be sure 99% of them would be cursing at that stupid country which lets you access a train with the card you just purchased at the station and then fines you for being on that train because you were supposed to have looked up the website of the operator, seen that the card is only useable on that train in a “short hop zone”, and done more googling to figure out if you destination is included in the zone - possibly all that in a language you don’t understand.

Whenever I travel abroad for business or pleasure I always research the ticket options and the validity of the transport systems I will be using because that is the sensible thing to do in my view.

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail after all.

DellyBelly

devnull wrote: »

Whenever I travel abroad for business or pleasure I always research the ticket options and the validity of the transport systems I will be using because that is the sensible thing to do in my view.

Failing to prepare is preparing to fail after all.

I agree with this. It can be tricky when in a country that doesn't have English but it is up to you as the consumer to get yourself up with all the conditions before you take public transport etc in these place. It's not rocket Science in fairness.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Whenever I travel abroad for business or pleasure I always research the ticket options and the validity of the transport systems I will be using because that is the sensible thing to do in my view.

Yeah, but not everybody is the mod of a public transport / commuting forum on their country's biggest online message board.

It's not ideal, really, to be allowed tag on only to find out that you are in breach of the rules because its not possible to tag off where you are going. I'm not sure what the solution is, but that announcement idea when you are about to leave the SHZ is a pretty good start. There'd be no ambiguity whatsoever.

Why wait until after Sallins to check the tickets in the first place? If this is a regular occurrence, why not flag it early doors and give people a chance to rectify it. It doesn't take an hour to go the full length of the train, surely? If it's not that regular, then whats the issue with letting the odd one slide?

Stephen15

DellyBelly wrote: »

I agree with this. It can be tricky when in a country that doesn't have English but it is up to you as the consumer to get yourself up with all the conditions before you take public transport etc in these place. It's not rocket Science in fairness.

Most countries in Europe at least that I have been to have signs in the native language and English.

EdgeCase

Stephen15 wrote: »

Most countries in Europe at least that I have been to have signs in the native language and English.

France only has at major internationally centric stations. They're in French only in most places.