Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

DavidLyons_ · 18-04-2018 10:43PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

DavidLyons_ wrote: »

I think you may be getting carried away in your bitter glee.

It appears to be reasonable to assume that the players have indeed been driven out for being misogynistic by a bunch of irrational misandrists.

Be absolutely sure of this, they'll both have lucrative contracts and new clubs very soon. You may very well implode with impotent rage when that happens.

Why would I care if they sign for a club abroad? Let them make a living.
I am happy they were kicked out of ireland. Delighted in fact.

They haven't been "kicked out of Ireland".

Yeah_Right wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Aren't you aboard with all the good/nice men? Utopia will be disrupted

I was just thinking the same thing. Imagine if they ended up in her hometown.

Please, PLEASE, let this happen.

blanch152 · 18-04-2018 11:06PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Go on the lunatic mob.
It was successful.

I have suspected for a while that you are part of the group that favours mob justice over the rule of law.

There is nothing wrong with believing the woman, but there is everything wrong in hounding a man out of a job for something he has been found not guilty of.

These are not politicians, whose job requires them to set standards. They are rugby players, that is all.

jimmycrackcorm · 18-04-2018 11:18PM

Silentcorner wrote: »

Oh, and she gave them all oral sex, according to them, and hand jobs...so they all did manage to perform...

On a technical point, from a mans point of view this isn't performing.
In rugby parlance, it's as if you hand over the ball to the opposite team and they simply go to their line and score the try for you.

FingerDeKat · 18-04-2018 11:53PM

Am I missing something...2 men get found not guilty and they have now lost their jobs ?

Only thing to take from this that is that the NI legal system needs to change... the complainant and the accused have the right to be not named..no public access and a block on reporting.

If found to be guilty report away , name and shame.

RabbleRouser2k · 18-04-2018 11:59PM

FingerDeKat wrote: »

Am I missing something...2 men get found not guilty and they have now lost their jobs ?

Only thing to take from this that is that the NI legal system needs to change... the complainant and the accused have the right to be not named..no public access and a block on reporting.

If found to be guilty report away , name and shame.

I could see that falling apart, quickly-the 'report and name and shame' wouldn't protect the complainant's anonymity.

Or you could run into a Ched Evans situation-as in appeals conviction, found not guilty, and suddenly Evans can sue a whole ton of people.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-04-2018 06:41AM

backspin. wrote: »

I think we have lost the run of ourselves here. These guys were found not guilty so the punishment is for the way they talked about women on watsapp? Is that really something they should lose their entire careers over as some of their opponents seem to want.

They didnt lose their carers over the whatsapp though really. Gilroy got a few weeks suspension for far "worse" than Jackson. They were hounded out by the ibelieve her mob after being acquitted, to make an example of them, and their "toxic masculinity" and white male middleclass "privilige."

Behaving in less than a gentlemanly manner, but not illegal, isnt something you should lose your career over. A suspension would have sufficed most i reckon.

Appledreams15 · 19-04-2018 07:15AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

They didnt lose their carers over the whatsapp though really. Gilroy got a few weeks suspension for far "worse" than Jackson. They were hounded out by the ibelieve her mob after being acquitted, to make an example of them, and their "toxic masculinity" and white male middleclass "privilige."

Behaving in less than a gentlemanly manner, but not illegal, isnt something you should lose your career over. A suspension would have sufficed most i reckon.

Hmm
If you really think people should stay playing rugby after:
The girl having an injury
Blood all over the bed
Girl hysterical from numerous accounts
Texts such as: she was very very loose, it was like a merry go round at a carnival,
Im not sure what's wrong with you.

As Ulster Rugby said, they stand for respect, they can't have people playing that have no respect for women.

Appledreams15 · 19-04-2018 07:18AM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

They didnt lose their carers over the whatsapp though really. Gilroy got a few weeks suspension for far "worse" than Jackson. They were hounded out by the ibelieve her mob after being acquitted, to make an example of them, and their "toxic masculinity" and white male middleclass "privilige."

Behaving in less than a gentlemanly manner, but not illegal, isnt something you should lose your career over. A suspension would have sufficed most i reckon.

Really? Who are you to decide what Ulster Rugby and sponsors stand for?
People take this stuff very seriously.

goz83 · 19-04-2018 08:20AM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Go on the lunatic mob.
It was successful.

Well at least you acknowledge that there was a "lunatic mob". Have you noticed your posts have been lacking the usual thanks for quite a while now? Even those who were sharing your views have distanced themselves from your attitude and rightly so. It's toxic. Most of the other posters at least engaged in debate and discussion. People don't always agree, but engaging in debate is healthy and fair, especially when discussing such an important topic. However you have relentlessly posted insults and ignored posters who questioned you.

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Why would I care if they sign for a club abroad? Let them make a living.
I am happy they were kicked out of ireland. Delighted in fact.

You care because you are clearly a man hater. I came across a few of your posts throughout the forum and you pay waaaay too much attention to threads based on gender. I saw your post where you say that the number on thing you look for in a man....your top priority....is that he is abroad. Spend a few days....use him and then move on. Classy girl

twinytwo · 19-04-2018 08:31AM

I wonder why all these people are not out protesting and whinging about what the garda top ranks conspired to do to garda Mccabe... but then why proest something that actually matters and has far more serious consequences for the country .... reality is it does not suit the little snowflake agendas.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 08:34AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I have suspected for a while that you are part of the group that favours mob justice over the rule of law.

There is nothing wrong with believing the woman, but there is everything wrong in hounding a man out of a job for something he has been found not guilty of.

These are not politicians, whose job requires them to set standards. They are rugby players, that is all.

their employers and their sponsors expect certain standards of the players.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2018 08:52AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

their employers and their sponsors expect certain standards of the players.

Which is complete nonsense as we know blind eyes are turned elsewhere.
This is employers and sponsors running scared because a lethal alliance of still prevalent religious sex shame and militant irrational feminism came together in an online cesspit of holier than thou outrage.

The tide will turn against the price these people want for mistakes and youthful indiscretions.

jm08 · 19-04-2018 08:54AM

blanch152 wrote: »

I have suspected for a while that you are part of the group that favours mob justice over the rule of law.

There is nothing wrong with believing the woman, but there is everything wrong in hounding a man out of a job for something he has been found not guilty of.

These are not politicians, whose job requires them to set standards. They are rugby players, that is all.

Look at it this way, say if Jackson & Olding had an office job where there is a mix of men and women. I'd bet that most female employees would actually find it hard to sit in the same room as them, knowing how they have disrespected and objectified women. Its like in the good old days, you would see the harp calenders up in the workplace. You don't see them now and there is a reason for that.

blanch152 · 19-04-2018 08:58AM

jm08 wrote: »

Look at it this way, say if Jackson & Olding had an office job where there is a mix of men and women. I'd bet that most female employees would actually find it hard to sit in the same room as them, knowing how they have disrespected and objectified women. Its like in the good old days, you would see the harp calenders up in the workplace. You don't see them now and there is a reason for that.

Their employer wouldn't be able to fire them for private conversations outside work.

Edit: It is possible that the weaker labour laws in the UK allow Ulster Rugby considerable more latitude, but they would succeed in an Unfair Dismissals Case in the South.

jm08 · 19-04-2018 09:06AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Their employer wouldn't be able to fire them for private conversations outside work.

Ignore the legal side of it, but do you not see the problems that would be caused for the workplace if they did become become public knowledge.

Edit: It is possible that the weaker labour laws in the UK allow Ulster Rugby considerable more latitude, but they would succeed in an Unfair Dismissals Case in the South.

That is why the employers would pay them off to leave which is exactly what happened with the two lads.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the other two lads involved (think one has moved to Australia already).

upandcumming · 19-04-2018 09:13AM

currants wrote: »

Do you really think its far worse for a player to lose his career after a series of, at best, extremely ill-judged events than for a young woman to leave an encounter crying and bleeding and believing she's been raped?

I know this was posted three days ago, but it certainly warrants a response.

Are you genuinely saying that these young men, who have already lost over a year of their already short sporting lives, deserve to be forced to find work abroad, because a young woman believed she was raped, and was crying?

I have left encounters with people crying. Should they have lost their jobs?

This is rare, pure form of nonsense.

jm08 · 19-04-2018 09:31AM

upandcumming wrote: »

I know this was posted three days ago, but it certainly warrants a response.

Are you genuinely saying that these young men, who have already lost over a year of their already short sporting lives, deserve to be forced to find work abroad, because a young woman believed she was raped, and was crying?

I have left encounters with people crying. Should they have lost their jobs?

This is rare, pure form of nonsense.

Look at it this way, if they had normal office jobs in Ireland such as insurance, banking, finance etc., do you think anyone would want to employ them?

Yeah_Right · 19-04-2018 09:47AM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Hmm
If you really think people should stay playing rugby after:
The girl having an injury What injury?
Blood all over the bed We're talking a few drops not pools of blood.
Girl hysterical from numerous accounts A young drunk girl got hysterical. Wow.
Texts such as: she was very very loose, it was like a merry go round at a carnival, Did Jackson send those messages? Besides that, it's lads talking ****e about a consensual threesome.
Im not sure what's wrong with you.

As Ulster Rugby said, they stand for respect, they can't have people playing that have no respect for women. No respect for THAT woman.

And in response to your question: Yes I think they should still be playing rugby.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 10:24AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which is complete nonsense as we know blind eyes are turned elsewhere.
This is employers and sponsors running scared because a lethal alliance of still prevalent religious sex shame and militant irrational feminism came together in an online cesspit of holier than thou outrage.

The tide will turn against the price these people want for mistakes and youthful indiscretions.

what happens elsewhere is irrelevant. Now, if Ulster and their sponsors had acted differently in a similar situation you might have a point. But you dont.

Captain Obvious · 19-04-2018 10:39AM

twinytwo wrote: »

I wonder why all these people are not out protesting and whinging about what the garda top ranks conspired to do to garda Mccabe... but then why proest something that actually matters and has far more serious consequences for the country .... reality is it does not suit the little snowflake agendas.

What matters to you is not necessarily something that matters to others.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-04-2018 01:30PM

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Hmm
If you really think people should stay playing rugby after:
The girl having an injury
Blood all over the bed
Girl hysterical from numerous accounts
Texts such as: she was very very loose, it was like a merry go round at a carnival,
Im not sure what's wrong with you.

As Ulster Rugby said, they stand for respect, they can't have people playing that have no respect for women.

you've three points, I'll deal with them in the order you brought them up.

If you dial back your hyperbole

Blood/injury
There wasn't "blood all over the bed", there was some blood on the bed, some of it the complainants, some of it another party not involved in the case.
There was disagreement over the quality and value of the forensic evidence by the respective expert witnesses,not wholly suitable for this thread.

hysterics
What are the numerous sources?
The one independent contemporaneous witness (taxi driver Stephen Fisher) said she was "crying/sobbing throughout the journey" (with her head on the chest of the friend of the men she went on to claim raped her) but it seems not of sufficient concern for him to call the PSNI. So was he used to girls crying in his cab, and wasn't concerned, or was it not exactly hysterical crying? the only witness that says she was hysterical was Harrison, who said in his whatsapp "Mate no joke she was in hysterics". Thats the only person to mention she was hysterical, not numerous, and arguably exaggerated.

re. text conversation
what did Paddy Jackson say?
(hint: "there was a lot of spit")
thats it. at least acknowledge the totality of his contribution, and ask, why so is Craig Gilroy still playing, if the whatsapp conversation was so worthy of life long sanction?

So to summarise, I'll tell you whats wrong with me, these lads were acquitted, but still hounded out of their current jobs, and future career in this country, by
a very vocal and highly biased engineered outrage. The can no longer work in punditry, coaching in this country once their short career is over.
they're untouchable, despite being innocent.

Were they gallant? fcuk no
Did they distinguish themselves? did they fcuk.
were the sh1ts? I think so.
Do I condemn their behaviour? Yes.
Should they have been punished? Yes.

However, they were acquitted after a very short deliberation, after a marathon trial, by a jury who were privy to far more than we are. They're entitled to try and resume their lives. But no, a mob gathered themselves, "i accept the jury's findings, but..." , and pressure was brought to bear on the sponsors. Death threats issued to the lawyers etc. this is not justice. If we dont have justice, we have lost a core value of our society. couple of months suspension with some charity work, IRFU initiate a core values/respect training programme etc., would have satisfied most rational people.

Its worrying, after years of fighting for better rights and tolerance of others, we have now the most intolerant society, where mob rule is all the counts. the court of law no longer matters, its the court of public opinion via the outraged Twitterati that carries the most weight.

Worrying times.

Yeah_Right · 19-04-2018 02:14PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you've three points, I'll deal with them in the order you brought them up.

If you dial back your hyperbole

Blood/injury
There wasn't "blood all over the bed", there was some blood on the bed, some of it the complainants, some of it another party not involved in the case.
There was disagreement over the quality and value of the forensic evidence by the respective expert witnesses,not wholly suitable for this thread.

hysterics
What are the numerous sources?
The one independent contemporaneous witness (taxi driver Stephen Fisher) said she was "crying/sobbing throughout the journey" (with her head on the chest of the friend of the men she went on to claim raped her) but it seems not of sufficient concern for him to call the PSNI. So was he used to girls crying in his cab, and wasn't concerned, or was it not exactly hysterical crying? the only witness that says she was hysterical was Harrison, who said in his whatsapp "Mate no joke she was in hysterics". Thats the only person to mention she was hysterical, not numerous, and arguably exaggerated.

re. text conversation
what did Paddy Jackson say?
(hint: "there was a lot of spit")
thats it. at least acknowledge the totality of his contribution, and ask, why so is Craig Gilroy still playing, if the whatsapp conversation was so worthy of life long sanction?

So to summarise, I'll tell you whats wrong with me, these lads were acquitted, but still hounded out of their current jobs, and future career in this country, by
a very vocal and highly biased engineered outrage. The can no longer work in punditry, coaching in this country once their short career is over.
they're untouchable, despite being innocent.

Were they gallant? fcuk no
Did they distinguish themselves? did they fcuk.
were the sh1ts? I think so.
Do I condemn their behaviour? Yes.
Should they have been punished? Yes.

However, they were acquitted after a very short deliberation, after a marathon trial, by a jury who were privy to far more than we are. They're entitled to try and resume their lives. But no, a mob gathered themselves, "i accept the jury's findings, but..." , and pressure was brought to bear on the sponsors. Death threats issued to the lawyers etc. this is not justice. If we dont have justice, we have lost a core value of our society. couple of months suspension with some charity work, IRFU initiate a core values/respect training programme etc., would have satisfied most rational people.

Its worrying, after years of fighting for better rights and tolerance of others, we have now the most intolerant society, where mob rule is all the counts. the court of law no longer matters, its the court of public opinion via the outraged Twitterati that carries the most weight.

Worrying times.

Well said.

I actually think the IRFU and Ulster missed a chance to make a real and genuine change in rugby in regards to its perceived attitude towards women. * You mentioned a core values/respect training program. Its been done in other countries in response to various incidents. In NZ they created a respect and responsibility panel that had men and women on it from both inside and outside the game including former players. They work with players at all levels, professional and amateur, to make them better members of their community. I think there is also a permanent woman's spot on the national board. Its only been going a year or 2 so I can't comment on its effectiveness but at least its a genuine effort.

Ulster and IRFU just threw the guys out and said to their sponsors and fans "problem solved".

*I say "perceived attitude towards women" because the majority of rugby players are male and it is a macho environment, with a lot of testosterone that can involve guys bragging about sexual conquests and measuring their dicks. Some will take this too far. However, from what I've seen of various sports teams (male and female) its not unique to men's rugby.

ArthurDayne · 19-04-2018 03:16PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you've three points, I'll deal with them in the order you brought them up.

If you dial back your hyperbole

Blood/injury
There wasn't "blood all over the bed", there was some blood on the bed, some of it the complainants, some of it another party not involved in the case.
There was disagreement over the quality and value of the forensic evidence by the respective expert witnesses,not wholly suitable for this thread.

hysterics
What are the numerous sources?
The one independent contemporaneous witness (taxi driver Stephen Fisher) said she was "crying/sobbing throughout the journey" (with her head on the chest of the friend of the men she went on to claim raped her) but it seems not of sufficient concern for him to call the PSNI. So was he used to girls crying in his cab, and wasn't concerned, or was it not exactly hysterical crying? the only witness that says she was hysterical was Harrison, who said in his whatsapp "Mate no joke she was in hysterics". Thats the only person to mention she was hysterical, not numerous, and arguably exaggerated.

re. text conversation
what did Paddy Jackson say?
(hint: "there was a lot of spit")
thats it. at least acknowledge the totality of his contribution, and ask, why so is Craig Gilroy still playing, if the whatsapp conversation was so worthy of life long sanction?

So to summarise, I'll tell you whats wrong with me, these lads were acquitted, but still hounded out of their current jobs, and future career in this country, by
a very vocal and highly biased engineered outrage. The can no longer work in punditry, coaching in this country once their short career is over.
they're untouchable, despite being innocent.

Were they gallant? fcuk no
Did they distinguish themselves? did they fcuk.
were the sh1ts? I think so.
Do I condemn their behaviour? Yes.
Should they have been punished? Yes.

However, they were acquitted after a very short deliberation, after a marathon trial, by a jury who were privy to far more than we are. They're entitled to try and resume their lives. But no, a mob gathered themselves, "i accept the jury's findings, but..." , and pressure was brought to bear on the sponsors. Death threats issued to the lawyers etc. this is not justice. If we dont have justice, we have lost a core value of our society. couple of months suspension with some charity work, IRFU initiate a core values/respect training programme etc., would have satisfied most rational people.

Its worrying, after years of fighting for better rights and tolerance of others, we have now the most intolerant society, where mob rule is all the counts. the court of law no longer matters, its the court of public opinion via the outraged Twitterati that carries the most weight.

Worrying times.

Very good summation.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 03:18PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

you've three points, I'll deal with them in the order you brought them up.

If you dial back your hyperbole

Blood/injury
There wasn't "blood all over the bed", there was some blood on the bed, some of it the complainants, some of it another party not involved in the case.
There was disagreement over the quality and value of the forensic evidence by the respective expert witnesses,not wholly suitable for this thread.

hysterics
What are the numerous sources?
The one independent contemporaneous witness (taxi driver Stephen Fisher) said she was "crying/sobbing throughout the journey" (with her head on the chest of the friend of the men she went on to claim raped her) but it seems not of sufficient concern for him to call the PSNI. So was he used to girls crying in his cab, and wasn't concerned, or was it not exactly hysterical crying? the only witness that says she was hysterical was Harrison, who said in his whatsapp "Mate no joke she was in hysterics". Thats the only person to mention she was hysterical, not numerous, and arguably exaggerated.

re. text conversation
what did Paddy Jackson say?
(hint: "there was a lot of spit")
thats it. at least acknowledge the totality of his contribution, and ask, why so is Craig Gilroy still playing, if the whatsapp conversation was so worthy of life long sanction?

So to summarise, I'll tell you whats wrong with me, these lads were acquitted, but still hounded out of their current jobs, and future career in this country, by
a very vocal and highly biased engineered outrage. The can no longer work in punditry, coaching in this country once their short career is over.
they're untouchable, despite being innocent.

Were they gallant? fcuk no
Did they distinguish themselves? did they fcuk.
were the sh1ts? I think so.
Do I condemn their behaviour? Yes.
Should they have been punished? Yes.

However, they were acquitted after a very short deliberation, after a marathon trial, by a jury who were privy to far more than we are. They're entitled to try and resume their lives. But no, a mob gathered themselves, "i accept the jury's findings, but..." , and pressure was brought to bear on the sponsors. Death threats issued to the lawyers etc. this is not justice. If we dont have justice, we have lost a core value of our society. couple of months suspension with some charity work, IRFU initiate a core values/respect training programme etc., would have satisfied most rational people.

Its worrying, after years of fighting for better rights and tolerance of others, we have now the most intolerant society, where mob rule is all the counts. the court of law no longer matters, its the court of public opinion via the outraged Twitterati that carries the most weight.

Worrying times.

were they? i thought some of the prosecution evidence was withheld by the judge and only came out after the trial was over.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2018 03:38PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

were they? i thought some of the prosecution evidence was withheld by the judge and only came out after the trial was over.

The jury could certainly see how much of HER blood was on the bed and it was certainly NOT COVERED. But the outraged seem determined to keep that exaggeration/sensational invention in the public domain.

Scurrilous at best and deeply sinister at worst.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 03:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The jury could certainly see how much of HER blood was on the bed and it was certainly NOT COVERED. But the outraged seem determined to keep that exaggeration/sensational invention in the public domain.

Scurrilous at best and deeply sinister at worst.

hmmmm

Jurors were unaware that there were photographs of additional blood on the sheets of Paddy Jackson’s bed, with the rugby player’s barrister saying he had “no intention of saying where this blood came from”.

Roger Hassenforder · 19-04-2018 03:45PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

were they? i thought some of the prosecution evidence was withheld by the judge and only came out after the trial was over.

They would have been privy to all the witness statements, of which only snippets made it out as reported.
AFAIK the "disclosures" related to a few aspects which might bias the jury where the "evidence " was either immaterial or contentious.
The witness statements werent public. DF was interviewed twice for example, to clarify "hand movements", possibly which informed their decision not to proceed with a prosecution.

FrancieBrady · 19-04-2018 03:48PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

hmmmm

It was NOT her blood, so it was irrelevant.

ohnonotgmail · 19-04-2018 03:48PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was NOT her blood, so it was irrelevant.

so who's blood was it?

Roger Hassenforder · 19-04-2018 03:49PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

hmmmm

Defence and prosecution "agreed" to photoshop out blood not belonging to any of the parties involved in the case.
It didnt matter thus where it came from, other than to satisfy lurid curiosity.

Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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