'Free tolls' for electric vehicles?

16-04-2018 9:45am #1

What treachery is this?!

January 1: Electric car owners will not have to pay tolls

April 15: Toll charges to be halved for electric cars

So, from early summer, it'll be 50% off at peak times and 75% reduction off peak. Doesn't apply to Port Tunnel during peak hours.

Can't make sense of these two paragraphs - seem to be contradictory:

The second one is a bit ambiguous but presumably it's the basis of the opening sentence which says EV owners can save 'up to €1,000'.

The amounts involved are pretty small (to the exchequer, I mean) due to the small number of EVs on the road - and likely to be on the road for at least two or three years.

Why water it down and make it more complicated? 'Free tolls' was a great headline. 'Discounted tolls by different percentages depending on the time of the day' is just not as catchy. Feels like it was negotiated by a committee.

This is about sending a signal. Why bother diluting the message?

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 10:13am

To be honest the electric car driver is getting far more grants/freebies than the petrol/diesel driver ever received.

I have said all along I didn't think the free tolls would work.

A 50% reduction of up to 500 per year is actually decent for the M50. Half price compared to diesel/petrol is a good offer. Really the main priority of the government should be to get cars off the M50, not get more onto it. So half price is good.

It's a pity they didn't do anything on the port tunnel in rush hour, this I think would have seen a huge push for electric cars. Even half price for rush hour and don't touch off peak would have been better. But I suppose the port tunnel was not built for private cars.

All in I think this is actually good....not often I say that about Shane Ross

Will be interesting to see if tolls outside Dublin are affected?

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 10:15am

Deleted User wrote: »

What treachery is this?!

January 1: Electric car owners will not have to pay tolls

April 15: Toll charges to be halved for electric cars

So, from early summer, it'll be 50% off at peak times and 75% reduction off peak. Doesn't apply to Port Tunnel during peak hours.

Can't make sense of these two paragraphs - seem to be contradictory:

The second one is a bit ambiguous but presumably it's the basis of the opening sentence which says EV owners can save 'up to €1,000'.

The amounts involved are pretty small (to the exchequer, I mean) due to the small number of EVs on the road - and likely to be on the road for at least two or three years.

Why water it down and make it more complicated? 'Free tolls' was a great headline. 'Discounted tolls by different percentages depending on the time of the day' is just not as catchy. Feels like it was negotiated by a committee.

This is about sending a signal. Why bother diluting the message?

The government should be focusing on removing cars off the road. Free everything will push more cars onto the road

People using buses/trains might start using cars because of all the incentives. This is not what the government want...

It is a negotiation. You can't make it too easy to drive an electric, it is a car after all

irishgrover · 16-04-2018 10:17am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

..........

Will be interesting to see if tolls outside Dublin are affected?

2nd paragraph states "Toll charges on the M50 and other major motorways are to be slashed" so hopefully they should be, else I'll be a bit peeved...

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 10:20am

irishgrover wrote: »

2nd paragraph states "Toll charges on the M50 and other major motorways are to be slashed" so hopefully they should be, else I'll be a bit peeved...

Sorry I missed that bit. Interesting as they don't own many of them, so the government will have to top up the tolls for electric cars

God we really are a bunch of free loaders :P

bk · 16-04-2018 10:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn't apply to Port Tunnel during peak hours.

This bit is fair enough. They don't want any cars in the Port Tunnel at peak times. The PT is supposed to be just for trucks to and from the port and the odd bus/coach.

I agree they shouldn't have watered down the rest.

KCross · 16-04-2018 10:50am

I hope this paragraph wasn't an actual quote from the Minister...

The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment Denis Naughten has pledged to increase the number of high-powered charging points in the coming years.

More rapid chargers is more important than half price tolls.

KCross · 16-04-2018 11:08am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why water it down and make it more complicated? 'Free tolls' was a great headline. 'Discounted tolls by different percentages depending on the time of the day' is just not as catchy. Feels like it was negotiated by a committee.

This is about sending a signal. Why bother diluting the message?

My guess is that they went for a half price model rather than a free one because it will be a lot easier to remove/tweak the incentive later on.

If you make it free its then very hard to tweak the percentages later as you will have people saying "I bought an EV for the free toll and now they've removed the incentive, I feel duped"

It will be very easy for a new minister to tweak the 50% to 25%, 10% etc over successive budgets (which they will do). If they start from free its harder to tweak it as people will see it as a new charge rather than a reduction in an incentive.

Its psychological.

micks_address · 16-04-2018 11:15am

So I can halve my m50 toll bill by driving electric?

KCross · 16-04-2018 11:17am

Some additional details on the scheme....

The scheme, which will begin this summer, will be available to the first 50,000 electric vehicles equipped with an electronic toll tag and will initially run up until the year 2022.

There will be a 50% toll discount for battery electric vehicles (BEVs) and a 25% toll discount for plug-in hybrid vehicles (PHEVs).

On the M50, to assist with demand management efforts, a higher incentive rate of 75% discount for BEVs and 50% discount for PHEVs will apply for off-peak travel (i.e. travelling outside peak hours of 7 to 10am and 4 to 7pm).

16-04-2018 11:17am

At least. 75% off at off-peak times.

KCross · 16-04-2018 11:18am

micks_address wrote: »

So I can halve my m50 toll bill by driving electric?

You can avail of a 50% discount on the M50 toll during peak time and 75% during off peak.... upto a maximum of €500 worth per year.

16-04-2018 11:19am

The first 50,000 electric vehicles ?

How many do we have on the road now? Far fewer than that I'd imagine.

KCross · 16-04-2018 11:23am

Deleted User wrote: »

The first 50,000 electric vehicles ?

How many do we have on the road now? Far fewer than that I'd imagine.

~3500

16-04-2018 11:24am

Safe for a while so

goz83 · 16-04-2018 11:25am

What about those who already have toll tags? I use "easy trip" toll tags which are auto topped up when the balance runs below a preset level.

Only use M50 toll a few times a year, but many other use these tags.

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 11:29am

goz83 wrote: »

What about those who already have toll tags? I use "easy trip" toll tags which are auto topped up when the balance runs below a preset level.

Only use M50 toll a few times a year, but many other use these tags.

I am going to email them now, hopefully I dont have to change,.....pain in ass if I do

Emailed, if I hear anything I will let you know

KCross · 16-04-2018 11:34am

goz83 wrote: »

What about those who already have toll tags? I use "easy trip" toll tags which are auto topped up when the balance runs below a preset level.

Only use M50 toll a few times a year, but many other use these tags.

If you already have one you are set I'd say. The toll tags are all interoperable across the tolls around the country across the different providers.

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 11:35am

KCross wrote: »

If you already have one you are set I'd say.

Hopefully we don't....

Circa 100 quid a month on tolls so this will help to reduce them

Ewan Hoosarmi · 16-04-2018 11:38am

I use the video account as I don't use the M50 on a regular basis. Does this mean I now have to get a tag?

FFS can they not just make it simple, stupid.:p

pavelpro · 16-04-2018 11:54am

They should add the scheme is valid every 3rd Monday of the odd Month of the Leap year.

And yes, PHEV will use electricity on M50 (except i3 though)...

Why not just do it free for the EV and dont come up with complicated rules

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 12:03pm

Sorry but I don't see why everyone always has to find fault

How is this not simple? What do you not understand?

I text a group of non-electric car owners and they understood it immediately.

Would it make them move to electric was the question I was wondering, without the port tunnel nobody had any interest...

One guy who was already thinking of buying said maybe but he needs a 64kWh car for his motorway distance.

thierry14 · 16-04-2018 12:50pm

Good it's not free

Clogging up the M50 with Leafs was never a good idea

You'd get plenty of clowns buying Leafs to get free tolls

Should be getting people out of cars

Should have just removed road tax or vat or something

Roads should be tolled more, not less

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 1:24pm

thierry14 wrote: »

Good it's not free

Clogging up the M50 with Leafs was never a good idea

You'd get plenty of clowns buying Leafs to get free tolls

Should be getting people out of cars

Should have just removed road tax or vat or something

Roads should be tolled more, not less

I agree in regards to the tolls

I still think electric cars should be taxed as they are driving on the roads as well....

Minimum tax as it is now is perfect

16-04-2018 1:27pm

I think the number of EVs on the road - or available to buy - is so low that there are no incentives capable of having a real impact on traffic.

waynegalway · 16-04-2018 3:37pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I agree in regards to the tolls

I still think electric cars should be taxed as they are driving on the roads as well....

Minimum tax as it is now is perfect

The motor tax is based on emissions, so it should be zero for EVs. Simple.

I know that EVs use the roads, so maybe there is some way for EV drivers to contribute to that (perhaps the VAT on cars sales could be ringfenced?), but a tax based on motor emissions should be zero for a car with zero emissions.

Shefwedfan · 16-04-2018 3:58pm

waynegalway wrote: »

The motor tax is based on emissions, so it should be zero for EVs. Simple.

I know that EVs use the roads, so maybe there is some way for EV drivers to contribute to that (perhaps the VAT on cars sales could be ringfenced?), but a tax based on motor emissions should be zero for a car with zero emissions.

I think we can all agree the current car tax system has a huge amount of issues.....

The fact a air polluting diesel is only 300 or less quid is one of them

KCross · 16-04-2018 4:06pm

waynegalway wrote: »

The motor tax is based on emissions, so it should be zero for EVs. Simple.

I know that EVs use the roads, so maybe there is some way for EV drivers to contribute to that (perhaps the VAT on cars sales could be ringfenced?), but a tax based on motor emissions should be zero for a car with zero emissions.

but but but but.... your emissions are not zero. What about the coal fired power plants!!!!

waynegalway · 16-04-2018 5:28pm

How about zero road tax (based on zero emissions) for EVs, but something like a tyre tax that all drivers have to pay? That could be ring fenced for road works. Say, €10 levy per tyre. That way, the more yiu use the road, the more you pay.

Lantus · 16-04-2018 7:13pm

KCross wrote:

but but but but.... your emissions are not zero. What about the coal fired power plants!!!!

Tax every electric device based on its emissions then? Of course the bigger the screen.......

KCross · 16-04-2018 7:27pm

waynegalway wrote: »

How about zero road tax (based on zero emissions) for EVs, but something like a tyre tax that all drivers have to pay? That could be ring fenced for road works. Say, €10 levy per tyre. That way, the more yiu use the road, the more you pay.

That would just encourage people to use low quality tyres that last "forever" thus negatively impacting safety as long lasting tyres usually have a corresponding negative impact on grip.

waynegalway · 16-04-2018 7:53pm

KCross wrote: »

That would just encourage people to use low quality tyres that last "forever" thus negatively impacting safety as long lasting tyres usually have a corresponding negative impact on grip.

Tax long lasting ones higher then, like €50 per tyre, to discourage that.

liamog · 16-04-2018 8:18pm

I think they've really missed a trick here.

The toll reduction is worth a maximum of €500 per year. €40 a month isn't really go to convince many drivers to switch.
If they'd have zero-rated the M50 toll, a daily commuter would have saved €2,000 (€166/month)

The BIK exemption on an Ioniq Electric is worth €9,000.
I guess we really know what the goal is here, it's not helping the common man to trade into an electric car.

17-04-2018 9:19am

Hadn't thought of the BIK implications of tolls at all. I'm getting a Leaf through work and they'll pay the tolls - first time I've ever had a company car as BIK always made it unattractive.

But I'll have to pay BIK on the tolls even though the company owns the vehicle? <Sigh> Suppose, I will... What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?

KCross · 17-04-2018 9:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?

Charging at work is BIK exempt.
Servicing.... not sure, I suppose its part of the deal the company did with the lease company so its the companies bill.

Shefwedfan · 17-04-2018 9:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Hadn't thought of the BIK implications of tolls at all. I'm getting a Leaf through work and they'll pay the tolls - first time I've ever had a company car as BIK always made it unattractive.

But I'll have to pay BIK on the tolls even though the company owns the vehicle? <Sigh> Suppose, I will... What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?

You pay BIK for the car.....with electric this is now 0%

You won't pay BIK for the tolls....this just means you are charging back less to the company.....

Also from my reading if it is company car the limit is 1,000 and not 500. So you might need to get tag from the company and not your personal tag

You dont pay BIK for the servicing, you don't own the car so you need to keep it serviced for the person who owns it....

17-04-2018 10:04am

Thanks a lot. I was wondering about the toll limit. To me it's a 'commercial' vehicle but I just hope this doesn't only apply to branded vans/cars.

It was considered 'commercial' rather than private when applying for SEAI (lower grant level - max €3.8k instead of €5k. And the ESB home charger grant was not available because I don't own the vehicle.

Still very generous BIK offer though. Not to mention the Accelerated Capital Allowance

If an EV suits your needs and you currently have a company car or generous mileage allowance, there's a pretty solid case to ask work about going electric. Good for you, good for them. And if it's your company...it appears to be a no-brainer.

ELM327 · 17-04-2018 10:10am

Lantus wrote: »

Tax every electric device based on its emissions then? Of course the bigger the screen.......

So no discounted tolls for Teslas then

:cool:

KCross · 17-04-2018 10:40am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Also from my reading if it is company car the limit is 1,000 and not 500. So you might need to get tag from the company and not your personal tag

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks a lot. I was wondering about the toll limit. To me it's a 'commercial' vehicle but I just hope this doesn't only apply to branded vans/cars.

It was considered 'commercial' rather than private when applying for SEAI (lower grant level - max €3.8k instead of €5k. And the ESB home charger grant was not available because I don't own the vehicle.

I think Shefwedfan might be right.

For the toll company to be able to apply the €1000 deduction they would need to know its a commercial EV and would need a VAT number, presumably, to go with it to prove that.

So the toll tag would need to be allocated a VAT number and an appropriate EV registration. Anyone send an email to them to clarify?

For everyone else its a straight €500.

Shefwedfan · 17-04-2018 10:52am

KCross wrote: »

I think Shefwedfan might be right.

For the toll company to be able to apply the €1000 deduction they would need to know its a commercial EV and would need a VAT number, presumably, to go with it to prove that.

So the toll tag would need to be allocated a VAT number and an appropriate EV registration. Anyone send an email to them to clarify?

For everyone else its a straight €500.

I sent email toeasytrip company about private car, not company car. They haven't replied but if they do I will ask for company car

I know my company will not want to have a tag on their system, they prefer for me to pay for tags and then claim back. Less paper work for them. But it might be option for some companies

KCross · 17-04-2018 10:54am

I fired off an email to DTTAS.

KCross · 17-04-2018 2:36pm

DTTAS responded and said it is motor tax based, so company cars would not be eligible per se...

The maximum cap of €1,000 per annum applies only to vehicles that are classified as ‘Good Vehicles’ or ‘Small Public Services Vehicles’ (i.e. Taxi/Hackney/Limousine) under the motor tax classification system.

So, its max of €500 for everyone else.

17-04-2018 2:39pm

Pfff - I thought they may view it that way.

As I said above, company cars are not private when it comes to the SEAI grant (they get a lower grant) nor for the ESB grant for installing a home charger.

Oh well, can't complain (much) - the other incentives are good.

liamog · 17-04-2018 10:12pm

Hahaha, at this point they've managed to miss the goal posts so much it's like they've turned up for a soccer match wearing their swimming gear.

The IEVOA have a post with screenshots of the discounts
http://www.irishevowners.ie/useful-info/reduced-toll-fares-for-electric-vehicles/

Benefit limited to €500 per year and doesn't apply on the M50 between 6am to 10am, 4pm to 7pm Monday to Friday. Port Tunnel 6am to 10am Southbound, 4pm to 7pm Northbound.

If I ddin't know any better, I'd say this "incentive" was created by somebody who wanted it to last a long time without really encouraging anyone to switch.

KCross · 17-04-2018 10:31pm

liamog wrote: »

Hahaha, at this point they've managed to miss the goal posts so much it's like they've turned up for a soccer match wearing their swimming gear.

The IEVOA have a post with screenshots of the discounts
http://www.irishevowners.ie/useful-info/reduced-toll-fares-for-electric-vehicles/

Benefit limited to €500 per year and doesn't apply on the M50 between 6am to 10am, 4pm to 7pm Monday to Friday. Port Tunnel 6am to 10am Southbound, 4pm to 7pm Northbound.

If I ddin't know any better, I'd say this "incentive" was created by somebody who wanted it to last a long time without really encouraging anyone to switch.

That isnt true liamog.
It does apply during peak hours @50%; but you get an additional reduction to 75% if you use it outside peak hours.

Their exact wording is:

On the M50, to assist with demand management efforts, a higher incentive rate of 75% discount for BEVs and 50% discount for PHEVs will apply for off-peak travel (i.e. travelling outside peak hours of 7 to 10am and 4 to 7pm).

Likewise, for demand management reasons the toll discount will only be applicable to Dublin Port Tunnel off- peak travel (i.e. the €3 toll rate) and not to the peak €10 rate.

liamog · 17-04-2018 10:40pm

So the table in the linked post is wrong?
Tbh it wouldn't be surprise in this country.

It's still a lame duck incentive.

KCross · 17-04-2018 10:49pm

liamog wrote: »

So the table in the linked post is wrong?

Yes, it’s wrong based on what was published by DTTAS.

For M50, 50% reduction at peak, 75% off-peak and a max of €500.

liamog · 17-04-2018 10:51pm

I stand corrected, and they'll update it.

Had me worried there that we had an absolute joke of a scheme.

liamog · 17-04-2018 10:57pm

For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

The zero emissions incentives include:

No purchase/import taxes (1990)
Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
Low annual road tax (1996)
No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
Free municipal parking (1999)
Access to bus lanes (2005)
50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
Zero annual road tax (2018)
40% reduced company car tax (2018)
50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)

KCross · 17-04-2018 11:43pm

I know that’s impressive but they have effectively an endless supply of black gold up there paying for all that. We can’t expect to match that.

With all the issues this country has, EV incentives have to be measured and limited and tbf we have significant incentives already anyway.

liamog · 18-04-2018 12:15am

That's an apologist excuse.

From 2020 we're paying €450,000,000 for missing our targets, I'd rather we spent money now, zeroing tolls and motor tax for three years would be relatively cheap.
If you really want to fund the change on a cost neutral basis, then increase VRT alongside it for new ICE vehicles and used Imports.
I believe SIMI aren't letting that kind of change happen.

We can't keep asking why the incentives don't work, when they are effectively hobbled.

'Free tolls' for electric vehicles?

Comments