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'Free tolls' for electric vehicles?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,684 ✭✭✭waynegalway


    KCross wrote: »
    That would just encourage people to use low quality tyres that last "forever" thus negatively impacting safety as long lasting tyres usually have a corresponding negative impact on grip.

    Tax long lasting ones higher then, like €50 per tyre, to discourage that. :)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    I think they've really missed a trick here.

    The toll reduction is worth a maximum of €500 per year. €40 a month isn't really go to convince many drivers to switch.
    If they'd have zero-rated the M50 toll, a daily commuter would have saved €2,000 (€166/month)

    The BIK exemption on an Ioniq Electric is worth €9,000.
    I guess we really know what the goal is here, it's not helping the common man to trade into an electric car.


  • Posts: 0 Andres Raspy Tarp


    Hadn't thought of the BIK implications of tolls at all. I'm getting a Leaf through work and they'll pay the tolls - first time I've ever had a company car as BIK always made it unattractive.

    But I'll have to pay BIK on the tolls even though the company owns the vehicle? <Sigh> Suppose, I will... What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?

    Charging at work is BIK exempt.
    Servicing.... not sure, I suppose its part of the deal the company did with the lease company so its the companies bill.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Hadn't thought of the BIK implications of tolls at all. I'm getting a Leaf through work and they'll pay the tolls - first time I've ever had a company car as BIK always made it unattractive.

    But I'll have to pay BIK on the tolls even though the company owns the vehicle? <Sigh> Suppose, I will... What about charging and servicing the car - is that BIK free?

    You pay BIK for the car.....with electric this is now 0%

    You won't pay BIK for the tolls....this just means you are charging back less to the company.....

    Also from my reading if it is company car the limit is 1,000 and not 500. So you might need to get tag from the company and not your personal tag

    You dont pay BIK for the servicing, you don't own the car so you need to keep it serviced for the person who owns it....


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  • Posts: 0 Andres Raspy Tarp


    Thanks a lot. I was wondering about the toll limit. To me it's a 'commercial' vehicle but I just hope this doesn't only apply to branded vans/cars.

    It was considered 'commercial' rather than private when applying for SEAI (lower grant level - max €3.8k instead of €5k. And the ESB home charger grant was not available because I don't own the vehicle.

    Still very generous BIK offer though. Not to mention the Accelerated Capital Allowance

    If an EV suits your needs and you currently have a company car or generous mileage allowance, there's a pretty solid case to ask work about going electric. Good for you, good for them. And if it's your company...it appears to be a no-brainer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Lantus wrote: »
    Tax every electric device based on its emissions then? Of course the bigger the screen.......
    So no discounted tolls for Teslas then ;):cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Also from my reading if it is company car the limit is 1,000 and not 500. So you might need to get tag from the company and not your personal tag
    Thanks a lot. I was wondering about the toll limit. To me it's a 'commercial' vehicle but I just hope this doesn't only apply to branded vans/cars.

    It was considered 'commercial' rather than private when applying for SEAI (lower grant level - max €3.8k instead of €5k. And the ESB home charger grant was not available because I don't own the vehicle.

    I think Shefwedfan might be right.

    For the toll company to be able to apply the €1000 deduction they would need to know its a commercial EV and would need a VAT number, presumably, to go with it to prove that.

    So the toll tag would need to be allocated a VAT number and an appropriate EV registration. Anyone send an email to them to clarify?


    For everyone else its a straight €500.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    KCross wrote: »
    I think Shefwedfan might be right.

    For the toll company to be able to apply the €1000 deduction they would need to know its a commercial EV and would need a VAT number, presumably, to go with it to prove that.

    So the toll tag would need to be allocated a VAT number and an appropriate EV registration. Anyone send an email to them to clarify?


    For everyone else its a straight €500.

    I sent email toeasytrip company about private car, not company car. They haven't replied but if they do I will ask for company car


    I know my company will not want to have a tag on their system, they prefer for me to pay for tags and then claim back. Less paper work for them. But it might be option for some companies


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I fired off an email to DTTAS.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    DTTAS responded and said it is motor tax based, so company cars would not be eligible per se...
    The maximum cap of €1,000 per annum applies only to vehicles that are classified as ‘Good Vehicles’ or ‘Small Public Services Vehicles’ (i.e. Taxi/Hackney/Limousine) under the motor tax classification system.


    So, its max of €500 for everyone else.


  • Posts: 0 Andres Raspy Tarp


    Pfff - I thought they may view it that way.

    As I said above, company cars are not private when it comes to the SEAI grant (they get a lower grant) nor for the ESB grant for installing a home charger.

    Oh well, can't complain (much) - the other incentives are good.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Hahaha, at this point they've managed to miss the goal posts so much it's like they've turned up for a soccer match wearing their swimming gear.

    The IEVOA have a post with screenshots of the discounts
    http://www.irishevowners.ie/useful-info/reduced-toll-fares-for-electric-vehicles/

    Benefit limited to €500 per year and doesn't apply on the M50 between 6am to 10am, 4pm to 7pm Monday to Friday. Port Tunnel 6am to 10am Southbound, 4pm to 7pm Northbound.

    If I ddin't know any better, I'd say this "incentive" was created by somebody who wanted it to last a long time without really encouraging anyone to switch.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    Hahaha, at this point they've managed to miss the goal posts so much it's like they've turned up for a soccer match wearing their swimming gear.

    The IEVOA have a post with screenshots of the discounts
    http://www.irishevowners.ie/useful-info/reduced-toll-fares-for-electric-vehicles/

    Benefit limited to €500 per year and doesn't apply on the M50 between 6am to 10am, 4pm to 7pm Monday to Friday. Port Tunnel 6am to 10am Southbound, 4pm to 7pm Northbound.

    If I ddin't know any better, I'd say this "incentive" was created by somebody who wanted it to last a long time without really encouraging anyone to switch.

    That isnt true liamog.
    It does apply during peak hours @50%; but you get an additional reduction to 75% if you use it outside peak hours.

    Their exact wording is:
    On the M50, to assist with demand management efforts, a higher incentive rate of 75% discount for BEVs and 50% discount for PHEVs will apply for off-peak travel (i.e. travelling outside peak hours of 7 to 10am and 4 to 7pm).

    Likewise, for demand management reasons the toll discount will only be applicable to Dublin Port Tunnel off- peak travel (i.e. the €3 toll rate) and not to the peak €10 rate.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    So the table in the linked post is wrong?
    Tbh it wouldn't be surprise in this country.

    It's still a lame duck incentive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    So the table in the linked post is wrong?

    Yes, it’s wrong based on what was published by DTTAS.

    For M50, 50% reduction at peak, 75% off-peak and a max of €500.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    I stand corrected, and they'll update it.

    Had me worried there that we had an absolute joke of a scheme.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

    The zero emissions incentives include:

    No purchase/import taxes (1990)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
    Low annual road tax (1996)
    No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
    Free municipal parking (1999)
    Access to bus lanes (2005)
    50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

    Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

    Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
    Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
    Zero annual road tax (2018)
    40% reduced company car tax (2018)
    50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
    Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    I know that’s impressive but they have effectively an endless supply of black gold up there paying for all that. We can’t expect to match that.


    With all the issues this country has, EV incentives have to be measured and limited and tbf we have significant incentives already anyway.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    That's an apologist excuse.

    From 2020 we're paying €450,000,000 for missing our targets, I'd rather we spent money now, zeroing tolls and motor tax for three years would be relatively cheap.
    If you really want to fund the change on a cost neutral basis, then increase VRT alongside it for new ICE vehicles and used Imports.
    I believe SIMI aren't letting that kind of change happen.

    We can't keep asking why the incentives don't work, when they are effectively hobbled.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,005 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Not an excuse at all, just a reality check.

    If we hit our EV targets we still won’t meet emissions targets overall so we will still be paying a very large part of that EU fine so throwing that out as a reason is a bit misleading.

    Increasing costs for ICE is the way to fund it but we don’t have enough choice in EVs yet for a mass shift to EV unless you want everyone in small hatchbacks (leaf and Zoe) as Ioniq can’t be got in numbers and everything else is >€30k

    Funding Tesla’s just won’t fly in this country with homelessness and trolley issues. You need to be realistic.

    I presume you are not denying that Norway has billions to play with and that is the main reason why they are leading the way. Expecting us to match that is naive, imo.

    You can buy a €26k Leaf today with the €10k subsidy that is there. Why aren’t they being bought in there 1000s?

    Free tolls isn’t the tipping point. It’s range and choice and infrastructure.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,657 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    We're not even achieving conversions on the direct model comparison within manufacturers.

    Pulsar vs Leaf is 1025:257 for €6,000 more
    Clio vs Zoe is 1736:57 for €7,500 more
    I30 vs Ioniq is 1646:231 for €8,750 more

    Now I'll be the first to point out that those comparisons are not 100% due to spec differences, but I think it illustrates that where a comparable model is available we still aren't doing enough.
    That's 4,400 cars that could of potentially switched easily.
    Just switching the cars in Dublin, Kildare, and Meath would be 2,275 extra EVs on the road, add Cork, and Limerick we get to 3,250.

    It would go along way to making public infrastructure sustainable, and give many more people exposure to EVs.

    I think the incentives need to bring the price to equal over 3 years. We're close, but not quite there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,027 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    liamog wrote: »
    We're not even achieving conversions on the direct model comparison within manufacturers.

    Pulsar vs Leaf is 1025:257 for €6,000 more
    Clio vs Zoe is 1736:57 for €7,500 more
    I30 vs Ioniq is 1646:231 for €8,750 more

    Now I'll be the first to point out that those comparisons are not 100% due to spec differences, but I think it illustrates that where a comparable model is available we still aren't doing enough.
    That's 4,400 cars that could of potentially switched easily.
    Just switching the cars in Dublin, Kildare, and Meath would be 2,275 extra EVs on the road, add Cork, and Limerick we get to 3,250.

    It would go along way to making public infrastructure sustainable, and give many more people exposure to EVs.

    I think the incentives need to bring the price to equal over 3 years. We're close, but not quite there.
    There's the problem, still too expensive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    liamog wrote: »
    For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

    The zero emissions incentives include:

    No purchase/import taxes (1990)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
    Low annual road tax (1996)
    No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
    Free municipal parking (1999)
    Access to bus lanes (2005)
    50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

    Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

    Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
    Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
    Zero annual road tax (2018)
    40% reduced company car tax (2018)
    50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
    Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)

    Also, Norway has pretty stiff import taxes for ICE. I did a quick calculation and for BMW 118i petrol with CO2 emissions of 112 g/km and NOx emissions of 27 mg/km the import tax is about 15k with assumption that the car costs 30k to buy.

    Compare that to a BEVs which doesn't pay any taxes including the VAT which makes BEVs actually way cheaper than ICEs. The difference is even more marked if you compare price of a Tesla and say M5 as the registration tax is based on CO2, NOx, and engine power.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    liamog wrote: »
    That's an apologist excuse.

    From 2020 we're paying €450,000,000 for missing our targets, I'd rather we spent money now, zeroing tolls and motor tax for three years would be relatively cheap.
    If you really want to fund the change on a cost neutral basis, then increase VRT alongside it for new ICE vehicles and used Imports.
    I believe SIMI aren't letting that kind of change happen.

    We can't keep asking why the incentives don't work, when they are effectively hobbled.

    Sticking a few electric cars on the road is not going to hit our targets.

    We require a massive change in everything....

    Really if you want to hit targets, remove all cars from road and put everyone on a bus/train/bike

    Also you cannot take a huge hole out of a sinlge budget. That's not how it works. Especially when we already have a gigantic hole owed from previous years. You can only work in the budget you have, work in small incentives

    From a government point of view it would be political suicide at the moment to push up diesel prices to stupid levels while the whole country is currently run on diesel. Small incentives to make change, then once the car manufacturers have a decent array of electric car then put the nail into diesel/petrol

    Today if I walk into a garage to buy electric car what option do I have? a leaf 2 is about it...maybe an i3....nothing else is in stock


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    liamog wrote: »
    For info, incentives in Norway where 28% of new cars this year are BEV.

    The zero emissions incentives include:

    No purchase/import taxes (1990)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on purchase (2001)
    Low annual road tax (1996)
    No charges on toll roads or ferries (1997 and 2009)
    Free municipal parking (1999)
    Access to bus lanes (2005)
    50 % reduced company car tax (2000)
    Exemption from 25% VAT on leasing (2015)

    Recent updates on Norwegian EV policy:

    Access for BEVs in bus lanes in Oslo require carpooling with at least one passenger during rush hours (2015)
    Free municipal parking up to cities to decide (2017)
    Zero annual road tax (2018)
    40% reduced company car tax (2018)
    50 % price reduction on ferries (2018)
    Zero re-registration tax for used zero emission cars (2018)


    Ireland is not Norway.....

    Buy a pint in Norway and you will know all about it....

    From website
    Cost of living in Norway is 33.76% higher than in Ireland

    Grant having a cheap electric car but you can't put food onto the table for your family


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Grant having a cheap electric car but you can't put food onto the table for your family

    In fairness, wages are also much higher then here, unemployment levels are very low and their social safety net is very strong. So no one struggles to put food on the table there!

    Food is more expensive then here, but not that much. The price of alcohol there shouldn't be used as an indicator, it is very heavily taxed and it's sale controlled.

    I've a lot of friends from Norway and go there frequently for hiking. Great country, lovely people and few struggling to put food on the table!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    bk wrote: »
    In fairness, wages are also much higher then here, unemployment levels are very low and their social safety net is very strong. So no one struggles to put food on the table there!

    Food is more expensive then here, but not that much. The price of alcohol there shouldn't be used as an indicator, it is very heavily taxed and it's sale controlled.

    I've a lot of friends from Norway and go there frequently for hiking. Great country, lovely people and few struggling to put food on the table!

    My point is we are not Norway. Constant posts about Norway are irrelvant.

    They have oil money, We don't.

    Norway don't have massive debt to pay back to dodgy europe. We do.

    The amount of incentives in place is about rigt in my eyes....well if the Port tunnel was half price in rush hour then I would be happy


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Trasna1


    They must be afraid that reducing the tolls would lead to massive congestion. If it was free unlimited tolls, commuters would change enmass from ICE and public transportation as an EV would be cost competitive for those users for commuters. It's obvious this is the reason when they offer rates for peak and off peak.

    There is nothing headline grabbing about the initiative so it really will work as a nice bonus for those that have an EV. It will be seen as an added bonus, not a reason to change so I doubt it will be very effective at increasing EV numbers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,795 ✭✭✭samih


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    massive debt to pay back to dodgy europe as their property developers didn't get greedy

    FYP there. Why does Europe get blamed because we were greedy here?


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