'Free tolls' for electric vehicles?

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Rural meath is an area where there is no bus stop. Navan Town is well served by an unreliable NX service. Which takes 2-3 times as long as a car to get to dublin.


If I'm not the target for this incentive (daily toll road user) then who is?
My neighbour who has a fossil car, is he not a target if he does the same trip?


I know you're not trying to be smart. Anyone proposing an orbital toll road discount as an incentive for those living and working within the orbital toll has no risk of that.

How many people in Dublin have a diesel car? I used to live in D15 and nearly every single car on my road was a diesel something. Some petrol smaller cars but mostly this was older people....

These drivers all lived and worked in the Greater Dublin area. So commute was less than 100km round trip. Majority did not seem to have any issue with buying new/newish cars on a regular basis.

A large proportion based on traffic coming out of area used the M50. So lets take it that D15 has 100,000 cars on the road at the moment. Average based on Ireland will be circa 80,000 of those will be diesel.

If the government got 50% of those cars to swap over that is 40,000 electric cars on the road. Now replicate that across the other areas in Dublin......

That is the target for this inventive in my opinion. I could be wrong but that would make sense to me.

portsky

I agree it will not be enough to entice people to move to EVs unless there are more punitive measures put in place for ICEs. It's definitely a step in the right direction.
Already though, its looking like many other government measures - announce a timeframe for implementation and then be late.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

the original design of the m50 was as an orbital route. You could argue that Unkles journey should ahve been on the m50 and not the backroads.

Exactly. That is why all the other orbital routes around all the other capitals in Europe are toll free. Even in Paris, where almost every other motorway is heavily tolled. That "the bridge" was ever tolled is a disgrace and a national embarrassment. Billions have been wasted there in lost time (before the automatic tolling). Far more than the toll money ever brought in.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. That is why all the other orbital routes around all the other capitals in Europe are toll free. Even in Paris, where almost every other motorway is heavily tolled. That "the bridge" was ever tolled is a disgrace and a national embarrassment. Billions have been wasted there in lost time (before the automatic tolling). Far more than the toll money ever brought in.

+1


I firmly believe that in time the m50 will become like the north & south circular roads , a marker in time of where dublin once ended. But we will need a new orbital route, 10-15km outside the M50.
And it should not be tolled, neither should the M50, we should be encouraging private and commercial users to use the orbital route!

creedp

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How many people in Dublin have a diesel car? I used to live in D15 and nearly every single car on my road was a diesel something. Some petrol smaller cars but mostly this was older people....

These drivers all lived and worked in the Greater Dublin area. So commute was less than 100km round trip. Majority did not seem to have any issue with buying new/newish cars on a regular basis.

A large proportion based on traffic coming out of area used the M50. So lets take it that D15 has 100,000 cars on the road at the moment. Average based on Ireland will be circa 80,000 of those will be diesel.

If the government got 50% of those cars to swap over that is 40,000 electric cars on the road. Now replicate that across the other areas in Dublin......

That is the target for this inventive in my opinion. I could be wrong but that would make sense to me.

That's all well and good though but if I can't charge my car away from my house because of the abysmal public charging infrastructure then an EV is of limited value for a lot of people. We need a carrot as well as a stick approach .. need to invest in public charging. In that context I can't reconcile the idea of the ESB replacing perfectly operational chademo charging units with triple head unit when there is a such a deficit in chargers out there which will only get worse. Why not install triple headers in addition to the existing units? Its laughable when you compare the banks of Tesla supercharger in certain sites when there are so few Tesla's on the road. However, this is the right approach invest in the infrastructure first and the demand will happen.

ELM327

creedp wrote: »

That's all well and good though but if I can't charge my car away from my house because of the abysmal public charging infrastructure then an EV is of limited value for a lot of people. We need a carrot as well as a stick approach .. need to invest in public charging. In that context I can't reconcile the idea of the ESB replacing perfectly operational chademo charging units with triple head unit when there is a such a deficit in chargers out there which will only get worse. Why not install triple headers in addition to the existing units? Its laughable when you compare the banks of Tesla supercharger in certain sites when there are so few Tesla's on the road. However, this is the right approach invest in the infrastructure first and the demand will happen.

Ecars and the current network are, in equal measures, an inept joke.
I wouldnt trust them to mind the ice in Alaska, let alone to manage a functional network.


The new triple headers should have been installed to upgrade the chademo only units.... and the chademo only units should have been redeployed in Lucan, Blanch, Naas, etc... double up the busy locations. Hell, there was a queue of 5 cars in navan the other day. We need more chargers, not just newer ones that have CCS too.

The Tesla approach is a good marketing strategy. The only reason it failed in my case was that the second hand Tesla prices went north pretty soon after I saw the chargers in Castlebellingham. Must have worked a treat for Tesla as seen by the price/availability ratio of CPO Model S moving squarely to their corner since last year.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

The Tesla approach is a good marketing strategy. The only reason it failed in my case was that the second hand Tesla prices went north pretty soon after I saw the chargers in Castlebellingham. Must have worked a treat for Tesla as seen by the price/availability ratio of CPO Model S moving squarely to their corner since last year.

+1
This time last year I could have had my pick of CPO model S between £32-35k... this year they have risen to over 1.3 times that. They are obviously doing something right!!

unkel

Almost all EVs have gone up in value. I guess the Tesla Model S more than any other! Negative depreciation across the board. An interesting phenomenon, I don't think we've seen anything like it before in automotive history. And sadly, I too will not be getting a Model S anytime soon by the looks of it...

Shefwedfan

Maybe the government should just scrap it....

Might stop the constant moaning

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Maybe the government should just scrap it....

Might stop the constant moaning

Sell it.
From the response papers to the CRU, there are multiple parties interested in buying the network.
A direct response + statement of interest was given by multiple energy suppliers in Ireland, when ecars tried to claim the network had no commercial value.

A deaf monkey would do a better job than the current crowd.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Sell it.
From the response papers to the CRU, there are multiple parties interested in buying the network.
A direct response + statement of interest was given by multiple energy suppliers in Ireland, when ecars tried to claim the network had no commercial value.

A deaf monkey would do a better job than the current crowd.

I was talking about the toll grant.....

Everyone seems to think it is cr*p, bar me, so why not just scrap it and give the money to HSE....better use of money

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was talking about the toll grant.....

Everyone seems to think it is cr*p, bar me, so why not just scrap it and give the money to HSE....better use of money

It benefits me so don't scrap it :D:D:D:D


But yeah, the funds would be better used for more chargers, for doubling up, for free motor tax, or even the HSE. Not that a million or 2 will make a slight bit of difference there though.:pac:

BoatMad

personally I dont use the tolled motorways much , but I think its a good headline incentive and one that can be time limited

_ned_

Things that made the Outlander PHEV the biggest selling electric in the UK are zero road tax, zero congestion charge and 5% BIK. Incentives do work. Zero is a good number if you want to grab headlines and attract attention. I'd love the smug feeling of zooming through the West Link with nothing to pay! :D:D

Shefwedfan

_ned_ wrote: »

Things that made the Outlander PHEV the biggest selling electric in the UK are zero road tax, zero congestion charge and 5% BIK. Incentives do work. Zero is a good number if you want to grab headlines and attract attention. I'd love the smug feeling of zooming through the West Link with nothing to pay! :D:D

The UK has a few more quid than Ireland :P

We still owe billions to other countries around the World....anything that resembles an inventive should be appreciated

_ned_

They might have a few more quid, but bigger debt-to-GDP ratio. 88.1% vs 72.1%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/269684/national-debt-in-eu-countries-in-relation-to-gross-domestic-product-gdp/

I think there is an economic argument to switch from oil to electricity. We can generate our own electricity from renewables to an increasingly significant degree. If we switched en-masse to EVs, charged at night off a low grid load, we could potentially replace a colossal amount of fossil fuel. KCross' Eirgrid nighttime Eirgrid figures are really interesting and show there is some hope for us.

The budget amounts for toll-free are tiny, especially compared to CO2 fines we face, so I think it would have more impact if it's just free rather than limited in some penny-counting exercise. They can always reverse it when there's too many of us sailing through the West Link on our toll-free magic carpets!

Shefwedfan

_ned_ wrote: »

They might have a few more quid, but bigger debt-to-GDP ratio. 88.1% vs 72.1%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/269684/national-debt-in-eu-countries-in-relation-to-gross-domestic-product-gdp/

I think there is an economic argument to switch from oil to electricity. We can generate our own electricity from renewables to an increasingly significant degree. If we switched en-masse to EVs, charged at night off a low grid load, we could potentially replace a colossal amount of fossil fuel. KCross' Eirgrid nighttime Eirgrid figures are really interesting and show there is some hope for us.

The budget amounts for toll-free are tiny, especially compared to CO2 fines we face, so I think it would have more impact if it's just free rather than limited in some penny-counting exercise. They can always reverse it when there's too many of us sailing through the West Link on our toll-free magic carpets!

Swapping a few cars over to electric will not mean the CO2 target are met. We would need to massively change how Ireland is run as a country

I seen online that Norway now have ability to generate from waves....I talked to a company in 2006-2008 and they said Ireland actually has a huge potential for wave energy generation but the government doesn't want to know about it...maybe that has changed but I doubt it....

Solar PV grants would be money better spent that free tolls to be honest. People might be more grateful of that, based on the comments on this thread it seems to be a waste of money on the tolls

_ned_

I'd agree. Cheaper access to Solar PV would be great. ElectricIreland offer an install for ~€4000-4500 generating 1500-1600 units, about €250 worth of daytime electricity. 6.25% ROI. Better than the banks at the moment, but not likely to set the world on fire. If the cost were reduced to about €2000, I think there would be a lot of uptake. And the benefits apply anywhere in the country, not just if you commute through toll gates. Panel costs are really dropping. Install costs need to be attacked too. But the big issue with SPV is we'd really need to store the energy to have a significant impact on the grid. A big surplus at noon isn't much use without storage, to defer usage during peak periods. EV's could help there, if you've got one hooked up during the day.

I can see why wind took off so much: cost about €1M/megawatt, >30% load capacity, ROI about 15%, plenty of grants, and scale. If you could buy a share in a turbine, it would only cost about €600 to produce the same 1500 kWh that the ElectricIreland SPV system would. And most of the energy would be available at night when you'd be charging Sparky!:)

bp_me

_ned_ wrote: »

I'd agree. Cheaper access to Solar PV would be great. ElectricIreland offer an install for ~€4000-4500 generating 1500-1600 units, about €250 worth of daytime electricity. 6.25% ROI.

This is only true if you can actually use all of the unit generated (or more accurately would have used them anyway).

Also delivery is highly variable. Right now as we are heading towards the middle of summer you are getting more daylight hours and more peak intensity in the middle of the day. Once you get over the hump that will go the other way and by the time december comes round you will barely make a single unit on a good day. On a good day right now I'm getting about 12-13kW from a 2kW system that probably isn't ideally positioned.

Here's what a good day looks like for me at the moment.

ELM327

If in the next few years the option to buy batteries from gen 1 EVs for storage becomes viable, PV becomes a much more viable option.
If you can install a system to generate 30kWh per day then you could charge the car, fill the storage, and run your house. All 100% renewable.

The question is, how much in 3 years will 20kWh say of storage cost. If you buy 2 gen 1 leafs with 6 bars left how easy would it be to remove the batteries and use them as storage?

unkel

_ned_ wrote: »

I'd agree. Cheaper access to Solar PV would be great. ElectricIreland offer an install for ~€4000-4500 generating 1500-1600 units, about €250 worth of daytime electricity. 6.25% ROI.

The install is only €3500 as you can get the VAT back under the incentive scheme. But as bp_me said, only a fraction of that is actually used, most goes back to the grid for free. Even in a very optimistic case that half is used, that's worth about 800kWh * 13c (last time I looked at the cheapest day rate) = €100

So ROI of 2.8% or pay back time of 35 years. With the slight problem that the inverter will have been replaced at least twice in those years and some of the panels themselves might not be the best either after all that time

So unfortunately, an offer like electric Ireland, will NEVER pay for itself

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

The install is only €3500 as you can get the VAT back under the incentive scheme. But as bp_me said, only a fraction of that is actually used, most goes back to the grid for free. Even in a very optimistic case that half is used, that's worth about 800kWh * 13c (last time I looked at the cheapest day rate) = €100

So ROI of 2.8% or pay back time of 35 years. With the slight problem that the inverter will have been replaced at least twice in those years and some of the panels themselves might not be the best either after all that time

So unfortunately, an offer like electric Ireland, will NEVER pay for itself

PV without storage will never pay for itself, in a realistic time period. IMHO.
Storage is the next thing to happen. With the end of life for 1st gen EVs coming soon.... I wonder if this will increase the viability of domestic storage. Even without PV there's a case to be made for storage. Fill a 30kWh battery at night on night rate at 6 c/kWh and use it during the day. Saving of 7c per kWh.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

PV without storage will never pay for itself

PV is getting a lot cheaper all the time, but I agree with your statement. I see 3 phases of storage

1. grid storage is already available for free, needs no investments from anyone but it needs a FIT

2. EV storage. As in V2H or V2G. Whereever an EV is plugged in, it should be fed with connected PV (via the grid, via your own solar PV, etc.)

3. Grid and home attached battery storage. This is still very expensive and not viable without subsidies. It is getting close in countries like Australia, where the electricity rates are sky high and where you can produce huge amounts of PV from your panels as it's a very sunny place

_ned_

Anyone see that video of a Model X pulling a Boeing 737? Two or 3 of them might be able to pull Ireland a bit closer to Australia.

Evd-Burner

Does anybody know what the crack is with the half price tools. I just called eFlow and they say that they have not been given the official go ahead and that the tolls will still be full price come Friday.

ELM327

It has not been introduced yet.

Evd-Burner

When is it due to be introduced? I thought it was supposed to be from 1st of June.

Maybe the government got busy with some other legislation they are working on?

Patser

Govt is full of half prices tools

Shefwedfan

Evd-Burner wrote: »

When is it due to be introduced? I thought it was supposed to be from 1st of June.

I never seen anything mentioned about 1st June

When it is released I am sure the government will be looking for plenty of press coverage

Seeing also as the abortion thing is getting fast tracked and the government are "delaying" holidays till that is put through I would guess this won't be out till after their holidays

Not a huge priority I would guess....

UP: Just got an email from tolltag.ie saying that this is going ahead on 1st of July and whether I'd like to apply for it. Here is the information document:

Reduced tolls for BEVs and PHEVs

Dglflyer

Just got the eflow discount email



[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Congratulations!![/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Your car has been recognised as being eligible for the Electric Vehicle Tolling Incentive scheme by the Department of Transport. [/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]What does this mean? It means you are now entitled to even further discounted tolls. [/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]For example, if you travel through the M50 toll during Off Peak time, now you only pay €0.52 instead of €2.10. That's a 75% discount off your toll![/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][/font]

ELM327

Dglflyer wrote: »

Just got the eflow discount email



[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Congratulations!![/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Your car has been recognised as being eligible for the Electric Vehicle Tolling Incentive scheme by the Department of Transport. [/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]What does this mean? It means you are now entitled to even further discounted tolls. [/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]For example, if you travel through the M50 toll during Off Peak time, now you only pay €0.52 instead of €2.10. That's a 75% discount off your toll![/font][/font]

[font=arial, sans-serif]http://f.chtah.com/s/0/2089528127/EVTIrefundexample.jpg[/font]

What toll company?
Im with eflow and havent received anything

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

What toll company?
Im with eflow and havent received anything

Do you have a tag account?

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

Do you have a tag account?

Yes, I have a tag account with eflow

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, I have a tag account with eflow

Maybe they haven't got round to you yet.

I seldom use the toll roads, so a tag account would probably save me nothing, taking into account the fee to have one.

cros13

samih wrote: »

UP: Just got an email from tolltag.ie saying that this is going ahead on 1st of July and whether I'd like to apply for it. Here is the information document:

Reduced tolls for BEVs and PHEVs

Easytrip have said they've been notified of the start date of 1st July. They don't have a registration mechanism yet but promise refunds for any incorrect charges post the start date.

Shefwedfan

cros13 wrote: »

Easytrip have said they've been notified of the start date of 1st July. They don't have a registration mechanism yet but promise refunds for any incorrect charges post the start date.

Interesting.....

I am going to contact them again. That is not good enough

Round Cable

samih wrote: »

UP: Just got an email from tolltag.ie saying that this is going ahead on 1st of July and whether I'd like to apply for it. Here is the information document:

Reduced tolls for BEVs and PHEVs

Surprised it has come up so quick, I thought the government might have announced it another 5 times before actually introducing it.

Shefwedfan

Round Cable wrote: »

Surprised it has come up so quick, I thought the government might have announced it another 5 times before actually introducing it.

They forgot in between all the announcement for the upgrade of charger network

bp_me

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They forgot in between all the announcement for the upgrade of charger network

That appears to be progressing slowly.

There was a recent RFT for a framework agreement to supply various AC and DC chargers (but only up to 50kW). Unfortunately because it was a framework we won't be able to see the details of the tenders that go into that framework without knowing they exist to place a FOI query.

Round Cable

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They forgot in between all the announcement for the upgrade of charger network

To be fair this is good news, and this is where the big effort should be. The current fast charger network which can have 3+ EVs queuing is pretty shocking considering there are only 4,500 EVs on the road. Imagine if there were 100,000.

It's nice that this toll lark has been put to one side, as the government got more mileage out of it than an Ioniq on the motorway, travelling at 135km/h (indicated).

Shefwedfan

Sarcasm is lost around these parts

unkel

Cheers lads for the heads up. All I had to do was mark my car as a full EV on the Park Magic website (tolltag.ie) and all refunds will be applied to my account from 01/07/2018.

No need for a new toll tag, which makes sense. Should have been completely free toll at all times for full EVs, but I'm not complaining with this result. Happy days

cros13

Easytrip has sent an official notice out to members:

https://www.easytrip.ie/electric-vehicle-toll-incentive-scheme/

Existing members should call them on 1890 67 67 68 to register their EV.

Shefwedfan

cros13 wrote: »

Easytrip has sent an official notice out to members:

https://www.easytrip.ie/electric-vehicle-toll-incentive-scheme/

Existing members should call them on 1890 67 67 68 to register their EV.

Yeah I got email earlier

goz83

Same here. I just sent them an email to update my account as both cars are EV

Calahonda52

cros13 wrote: »

Easytrip has sent an official notice out to members:

https://www.easytrip.ie/electric-vehicle-toll-incentive-scheme/

Existing members should call them on 1890 67 67 68 to register their EV.

or Local Phone: 01-8613200 (IRL)

micks_address

Calahonda52 wrote: »

or Local Phone: 01-8613200 (IRL)

Would bmw 330e qualify for 70 percent reduction in tolls?
Thanks,
Mick