Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

awec · 15-04-2018 11:01AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

See here's the thing. i did go and read that when I woke up yesterday morning. As I said on this very thread.

Then, after depressing myself by reading that and eventually as the fallout spread realising they're still a minority, I realised I couldn't care less about the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC. They're odious scrotes and their attitude towards women is a complete and utter embarrassment to the sport. And so I really wish I hadn't done exactly what you suggested here. Luckily enough as the day progressed I soon realised they're not representative of the general reaction at all, as evidenced by the opinions of people across the country, luckily enough for the rest of us.

I do wish their dream of cutting ties with the IRFU and setting up a new side under the auspices of the SRU was even 0.001% feasible, it would certainly save us potential future embarrassment.

You've no idea if they are in the minority. Literally not a clue. The idea that you know this is a figment of your imagination.

You don't care about their opinions, why should anyone care about yours?

You should probably stop talking as if you're representative of rugby supporters in Ireland. To equate not wanting them sacked with having an odious attitude to women is 100% horse **** and you know it.

sullivlo · 15-04-2018 11:03AM

I’m female. I have played rugby. I am a rugby fan.

When the news of the charges broke, it was the right decision that they were stood down during the trial.

They were both found not guilty. In the court, their legal team were able to introduce reasonable doubt, therefore the jury could not convict. They should, IMO, therefore be able to return to their respective jobs, as any other person found not guilty of a crime should be.

I would still support a team that had the players in it, but I would give the players a wide berth in my support for them. The trial has left a bad taste in my mouth over the casual nature of some of the comments supporting the culture of whatever happened in the house that night. As a woman, I don’t think I will understand the male mindset, and similarly, men won’t understand the female position on it.

I understand both sides but on the balance I can see why the IRFU acted in this way.

I wish the players well wherever they go. I won’t support them, but I hope they find peace.

And I hope Ulster get carte blanche to sign replacements. Extenuating circumstances beyond their control.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 11:04AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This post is literally the first thing anyone has said about a life ban! :pac:

'Effectively' it is a life ban if the majority of supporters don't want them back.

Which has turned out to be a 'majority' of the supporters you have chatted to. :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 15-04-2018 11:07AM

awec wrote: »

You've no idea if they are in the minority. Literally not a clue. The idea that you know this is a figment of your imagination.

You don't care about their opinions, why should anyone care abut yours?

You should probably stop talking as if you're representative of rugby supporters in Ireland.

Well the URSC are absolutely a minority. It doesn't take any effort at all to work that out. And even if every fan of Ulster associated themselves with the group, and even if every single member of that group felt the same way about the decision (both of these things of course we know not to be true), they would still need a lot of support from elsewhere to not be in a significant minority on the island. While I do absolutely know that they are a minority, I don't know that their opinions are held by a minority, so you are right in that regard.

And I should correct myself and say that I do care about their opinions. I care a huge amount about their opinions. Which is why I get angry, absolutely furious, when I read them and realise their attitude towards women is absolutely appalling. And I'd say that it'd be extremely, extremely embarrassing for any decent person to be defending that sort of attitude.

awec · 15-04-2018 11:11AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well the URSC are absolutely a minority. It doesn't take any effort at all to work that out. And even if every fan of Ulster associated themselves with the group, and even if every single member of that group felt the same way about the decision (both of these things of course we know not to be true), they would still need a lot of support from elsewhere to not be in a significant minority on the island. While I do absolutely know that they are a minority, I don't know that their opinions are held by a minority, so you are right in that regard.

And I should correct myself and say that I do care about their opinions. I care a huge amount about their opinions. Which is why I get angry, absolutely furious, when I read them and realise their attitude towards women is absolutely appalling. And I'd say that it'd be extremely, extremely embarrassing for any decent person to be defending that sort of attitude.

Excellent. So perhaps we can stop with this "the majority of the rugby community agrees with the decision" nonsense.

Your second paragraph is just vacuous twaddle, so I'm not even going to bother dignifying it with a response.

irishbucsfan · 15-04-2018 11:12AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Effectively' it is a life ban if the majority of supporters don't want them back.

Which has turned out to be a 'majority' of the supporters you have chatted to. :rolleyes:

It's not remotely a life ban. Noone is talking about a life ban, so if you thought we were, you were mistaken.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 11:14AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's not remotely a life ban. Noone is talking about a life ban, so if you thought we were, you were mistaken.

If you say a majority will not want them to play it is 'effectively' a life ban.

irishbucsfan · 15-04-2018 11:15AM

awec wrote: »

Excellent. So perhaps we can stop with this "the majority of the rugby community agrees with the decision" nonsense.

Your second paragraph is just vacuous twaddle, so I'm not even going to bother dignifying it with a response.

I absolutely think that the majority of people agree with the decision so I don't see why I should censor myself from saying that. It doesn't really matter though, it doesn't change the validity of the decision, even if everyone hated it, it might still be the correct decision. So we can agree to disagree.

What I said is not remotely vacuous, in any sense of the word. I'm being intentionally vague but if you want I can give specific examples of that behaviour. I can't imagine it would do anyone any good to go through that exercise though. I'm fairly sure that you know exactly what I'm talking about.

irishbucsfan · 15-04-2018 11:19AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you say a majority will not want them to play it is 'effectively' a life ban.

Never even said the majority 'will not' want them to play. In fact I said the exact opposite, that I thought they could even eventually return if they play their cards right. I was talking in the present tense.

But most importantly, they have not been banned from playing rugby anywhere. There's a difference between being unemployable and being banned. We (edit: the royal we

) had this conversation elsewhere earlier in the year when discussing whether or not Munster should have signed Gerbrandt Grobler.

FrancieBrady · 15-04-2018 11:22AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Never even said the majority 'will not' want them to play.

So what is your problem with what I said? reposted below:

Well I didn't hear much public objection to Willie John's plea for the lads coming from Ulster Supporters Club so I would think that they will be easily 'won over'.

I accept there is a percentage of the rugby fraternity elsewhere that don't want them to play, but I think given time that will diminish.

Fairly novel situation so anything can happen.

Buer · 15-04-2018 11:26AM

I'm not sure they'll never play for Ireland again. Say Jackson is up for a contract renewal in 2 years. He'll be 28. Ian Keatley will be 33.

It may not come to pass but I would put the house on Munster having a conversation about whether they make an approach or not if they haven't signed someone in the meantime. I could see little issue among the majority Munster fans at that point with such an acquisition.

bilston · 15-04-2018 11:35AM

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Oh boo f**cking hoo.

They are professional sports men, they are going to the UK and France.

They are likely to earn a lot of money.

Their families are far from the poverty line and can travel to see them play.

You would swear they weere construction labouroures during the property crash going to remote Australia or Canada the way you are going on.

They were always in the UK...oh sorry is that a d*****h reply as well???

Downlinz · 15-04-2018 11:36AM

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure they'll never play for Ireland again. Say Jackson is up for a contract renewal in 2 years. He'll be 28. Ian Keatley will be 33.

It may not come to pass but I would put the house on Munster having a conversation about whether they make an approach or not if they haven't signed someone in the meantime. I could see little issue among the majority Munster fans at that point with such an acquisition.

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

Buer · 15-04-2018 11:39AM

Downlinz wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

I'm not sure they'll never play for Ireland again. Say Jackson is up for a contract renewal in 2 years. He'll be 28. Ian Keatley will be 33.

It may not come to pass but I would put the house on Munster having a conversation about whether they make an approach or not if they haven't signed someone in the meantime. I could see little issue among the majority Munster fans at that point with such an acquisition.

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

TB looks like he's done. Johnston isn't signed up for next season. JJ has been a total bust.

Munster will almost certainly be looking at an experienced outhalf in the next couple of seasons.

Two years in France will see a massive reduction in the public outrage. As I said, it may never happen but the other provinces would be idiots not to discuss it.

bilston · 15-04-2018 11:40AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

See here's the thing. i did go and read that when I woke up yesterday morning. As I said on this very thread.

Then, after depressing myself by reading that and eventually as the fallout spread realising they're still a minority, I realised I couldn't care less about the opinions of the URSC, at least those on UAFC. They're odious scrotes and their attitude towards women is a complete and utter embarrassment to the sport. And so I really wish I hadn't done exactly what you suggested here. Luckily enough as the day progressed I soon realised they're not representative of the general reaction at all, as evidenced by the opinions of people across the country, luckily enough for the rest of us.

I do wish their dream of cutting ties with the IRFU and setting up a new side under the auspices of the SRU was even 0.001% feasible, it would certainly save us potential future embarrassment.

Odious scrotes is a bit harsh.

Obviously those on uafc are very extreme, but genuinely everything I've seen suggests the majority of Ulster fans wanted them to stay, be it Facebook, twitter or just actual real life people I've spoken to. I appreciate that sentiment wasn't shared where it mattered...Dublin...but there you go. It is no longer the IRFU's problem. Obviously people are going to be upset, maybe you should leave them be for a while and they'll get over it. It worked with Pienaar, it will happen again.

Squatter · 15-04-2018 11:42AM

Downlinz wrote: »

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

That's unfair. He had become a very capable and competent player who had flourished with Pienaar's assistance and was coming into his rugby prime. He has a lot to offer any team that is willing to take a risk with him.

I think it would be unfair to close the door on his future international career for good. Once the dust has settled and if his club form is good then he should definitely come into consideration for the national squad, maybe after RWC 2019.

Faugheen · 15-04-2018 11:43AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Among rugby fans?
What data are you going on?

The same data as you. F*ck all.

How can you claim rugby fans will take them back with no basis then ask for data when someone challenges you?

awec · 15-04-2018 11:47AM

Downlinz wrote: »

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

If you combined the best bits of Tyler, Bill and JJ they still wouldn't be as good as PJ.

durthacht · 15-04-2018 11:48AM

sullivlo wrote: »

I’m female. I have played rugby. I am a rugby fan.

When the news of the charges broke, it was the right decision that they were stood down during the trial.

They were both found not guilty. In the court, their legal team were able to introduce reasonable doubt, therefore the jury could not convict. They should, IMO, therefore be able to return to their respective jobs, as any other person found not guilty of a crime should be.

I would still support a team that had the players in it, but I would give the players a wide berth in my support for them. The trial has left a bad taste in my mouth over the casual nature of some of the comments supporting the culture of whatever happened in the house that night. As a woman, I don’t think I will understand the male mindset, and similarly, men won’t understand the female position on it.

I understand both sides but on the balance I can see why the IRFU acted in this way.

I wish the players well wherever they go. I won’t support them, but I hope they find peace.

And I hope Ulster get carte blanche to sign replacements. Extenuating circumstances beyond their control.

This is one of the most sensible, rational, and mature contributions to the debate on this issue.

The only thing on which I disagree with you is that I don't think it's a clear male v female mindset. I'm a man and I'm absolutely disgusted but the behaviour and attitudes of those individuals, and I'm convinced Irish Rugby did the right thing to fire them.

I respect others think differently and that's fair enough, but I think issues of respect and decency are and by right should be gender neutral.

foxyladyxx · 15-04-2018 11:53AM

Marian Finucane trending at #marian and saying how disgraceful it is that these two Ulster lads lost their jobe.

Buer · 15-04-2018 11:59AM

Squatter wrote: »

Downlinz wrote: »

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

That's unfair. He had become a very capable and competent player who had flourished with Pienaar's assistance and was coming into his rugby prime. He has a lot to offer any team that is willing to take a risk with him.

It's not unfair. It's simply blatantly wrong. After Sexton, there isn't another Irish outhalf near the level of Jackson. He's an excellent player and there's a very good reason a side like Clermont are swooping for him immediately.

Jackson will never get the credit he fully deserves from many as a player simply because he has the audacity to have competed for an Irish jersey with the likes of Madigan, ROG and Carbery and come out on top for the most part.

foxyladyxx · 15-04-2018 12:03PM

Buer wrote: »

It's not unfair. It's simply blatantly wrong. After Sexton, there isn't another Irish outhalf near the level of Jackson. He's an excellent player and there's a very good reason a side like Clermont are swooping for him immediately.

Jackson will never get the credit he fully deserves from many as a player simply because he has the audacity to have competed for an Irish jersey with the likes of Madigan, ROG and Carbery and come out on top for the most part.

Yes Jackson was a player gifted with natural athleticism. We do not have anybody next or near to him in terms of ability to read a game. .The Leinster match demonstrated that. Carbery simply hasn't got what it takes to make it at international level imo .

CommandoJack · 15-04-2018 12:05PM

Buer wrote: »

It's not unfair. It's simply blatantly wrong. After Sexton, there isn't another Irish outhalf near the level of Jackson. He's an excellent player and there's a very good reason a side like Clermont are swooping for him immediately.

Jackson will never get the credit he fully deserves from many as a player simply because he has the audacity to have competed for an Irish jersey with the likes of Madigan, ROG and Carbery and come out on top for the most part.

I'm loathe to suggest "southern bias", but there may be some of that at play too.
PJ was literally the best place kicker in the world (and still improving) for the 3 months before he was suspended. The rest of his game was robust, though not quite of Sexton's standard (yet). Head and shoulders above the alternatives (at that time). "Mediocre" indeed...

mfceiling · 15-04-2018 12:06PM

Downlinz wrote: »

Nobody will go near him, he has even less support in the south than he has in Ulster, he's hardly Beauden Barrett either so little reason to associate with a mediocre 10 at a similar level to what we already have. Between Tyler, Bill and JJ there's no shortage of options over the next few years.

Aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Jesus thanks man....best laugh I've had in ages!!

*anyone know how JJ is getting on at 10 at the minute?*

Vinnie222 · 15-04-2018 12:06PM

foxyladyxx wrote: »

Yes Jackson was a player gifted with natural athleticism. We do not have anybody next or near to him in terms of ability to read a game. .The Leinster match demonstrated that. Carbery simply hasn't got what it takes to make it at international level imo .

New Zealand last yr and England this yr proves Carbery has it . Paddy had many a poor game with Ulster and Ireland

Faugheen · 15-04-2018 12:09PM

CommandoJack wrote: »

I'm loathe to suggest "southern bias", but there may be some of that at play too.
PJ was literally the best place kicker in the world (and still improving) for the 3 months before he was suspended. The rest of his game was robust, though not quite of Sexton's standard (yet). Head and shoulders above the alternatives (at that time). "Mediocre" indeed...

Ah now, while I agree Carbery isn't at Jackson's level and it's laughable to suggest otherwise.

It's just as laughable to suggest Jackson was the best place kicker in the world before he got suspended. A very good one indeed, but come on...

mfceiling · 15-04-2018 12:10PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

New Zealand last yr and England this yr proves Carbery has it . Paddy had many a poor game with Ulster and Ireland

How did he get on last night against Treviso?

irishbucsfan · 15-04-2018 12:13PM

CommandoJack wrote: »

I'm loathe to suggest "southern bias", but there may be some of that at play too.
PJ was literally the best place kicker in the world (and still improving) for the 3 months before he was suspended. The rest of his game was robust, though not quite of Sexton's standard (yet). Head and shoulders above the alternatives (at that time). "Mediocre" indeed...

I think there's a very healthy southern bias at play.

I think it's basically a non-Ulster bias in the same way I think we saw Jamie Heaslip underrated due to a non-Leinster bias and Donncha Ryan underrated due to a non-Munster bias. People underrate other provinces players and it's particularly blatant when that player is directly in competition with their own. So as soon as PJ came up against Madigan or ROG in such an important position, he never really stood a chance of being judged fairly. People immediately became hyper-critical of him.

No doubt at all he'd be clear second choice if he was available.

Vinnie222 · 15-04-2018 12:15PM

mfceiling wrote: »

How did he get on last night against Treviso?

Jesus 1 game and a week before the big 1 !

mfceiling · 15-04-2018 12:18PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Jesus 1 game and a week before the big 1 !

You reckon he'll be ahead of Johnny for the semi? You reckon he's the 2nd best 10 in Ireland? You reckon he's the 2nd best 10 at Leinster?

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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