Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Here's the thing. You're trying to make what would be an excellent point if it was applicable. So I certainly give that credit. So what I said requires explanation.

It's completely fair enough to say that things should not be taken literally in every sense. So if someone uses mysoginistic language, it does not in itself condemn them. I didn't say if someone uses mysoginistic language they hate women though.

I was taking context and intent into the equation though. For example, if someone just calls someone a "slut" it could mean absolutely anything and there's nothing to be gained by jumping to a conclusion on their attitudes. If however a group of men come together to make plans to intimidate/belittle women and use misogyinistic language while doing it, there's a lot more to be gained from such a judgement. But no one wants to waste their time reading these three paragraphs, so I'll leave it as "I can assess someone is misogynist if they say misogynistic things."

Please detail how this possibly applies to Paddy Jackson

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Please detail how this possibly applies to Paddy Jackson

It doesn't actually apply to Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding, Blaine McIlroy or Rory Harrison. Or Craig Gilroy.

FrancieBrady

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm absolutely and totally confident that anyone who does/says the things they were are misogynists. Awful stuff.

Feel free to disagree, I just hope you aren't a party to it.

A party to having an opinion of a particular man or woman?

I do it all the time. In fact, I couldn't live my life without separate opinions of different people and their behaviour.

irishbucsfan

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A party to having an opinion of a particular man or woman?

I do it all the time. In fact, I couldn't live my life without separate opinions of different people and their behaviour.

Good lad

Former Former

Buer wrote: »

I agree mostly with what you say aside from the above. What Jackson has delivered in a green jersey far outstrips what Madigan has. Multiple 6N starts, beating Australia and SA in Cape Town.

He has proven he's a test level outhalf which nobody else has in well over a decade aside from ROG and Sexton.

He has never been an important player in Joe's eyes, that's the point I'm trying to make.

All academic now anyway.

Faugheen

CommandoJack wrote: »

Jackson having the best record of all kickers with more than 20 kicks in the 2016-2017 season (worldwide) says otherwise!

38/43 Pro12
14/15 6Nations
24/26 Other Internationals
76/84 90.48%

Ok fair enough, but how many of those were in front of the posts? Out on the touch line? Over 30m, 40m, 50m? Etc.

If you're judging the best place kicker in the world, raw data isn't enough. It needs to be broken down even further against his peers.

If I have a 95% rate from 60 kicks, but all of my kicks are in front of the posts on the 22, but you have a 90% rate with all of your 60 kicks much further back on the touch line, does that make me a better place kicker than you?

Far from it.

Faugheen

Faugheen wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but how many of those were in front of the posts? Out on the touch line? Over 30m, 40m, 50m? Etc.

If you're judging the best place kicker in the world, raw data isn't enough. It needs to be broken down even further against his peers.

If I have a 95% rate from 60 kicks, but all of my kicks are in front of the posts on the 22, but you have a 90% rate with all of your 60 kicks much further back on the touch line, does that make me a better place kicker than you?

Far from it.

84 kicks is a pretty decent sample size, 90% for a season is very impressive. Over enough kicks all this will balance out.

FrancieBrady

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Good lad

If I needed conformation of my belief that you know yourself that you are talking rubbish, that is it. Thanks.

Faugheen

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

84 kicks is a pretty decent sample size, 90% for a season is very impressive. Over enough kicks all this will balance out.

I'm not disputing that it's an impressive tally, but what was his rate on the more difficult kicks?

If you're judging the best place kicker in the world, you need more than he kicked X out of y. As I said if I only kicked if it was in front of the posts I'd have a nice looking percentage too.

I'm not suggesting that Jackson only did that, but I need more than just his overall stats to convince me because overall stats can be skewed. Give me a breakdown compared to his peers and it will be considered.

FrancieBrady

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

84 kicks is a pretty decent sample size, 90% for a season is very impressive. Over enough kicks all this will balance out.

I think this is heading towards - 'Can you also tell us the weather conditions and what brand boots they were wearing'?

Kicking results controlled for wind, conditions, x/y field position, score difference, time-left-in-match, pressure situations etc are not readily available.

By all means, if someone wants to condition the kicking percentages in order to paint a different picture, they can go and attempt to do so, and come back with their findings.

Until then though, the available metrics support the idea that PJ is a fine kicker.

errlloyd

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think this is heading towards - 'Can you also tell us the weather conditions and what brand boots they were wearing'?

His stats over that sample size aren't bad at all. Here's the stats for kickers over their full careers.

http://linebreakrugby.com/2016/06/rugby-kicking-stats/

Faugheen

Deleted User wrote: »

Until then though, the available metrics support the idea that PJ is a fine kicker.

I haven't said otherwise.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Kicking results controlled for wind, conditions, x/y field position, score difference, time-left-in-match, pressure situations etc are not readily available.

By all means, if someone wants to condition the kicking percentages in order to paint a different picture, they can go and attempt to do so, and come back with their findings.

Until then though, the available metrics support the idea that PJ is a fine kicker.

They aren't, but over the course of the season I'd find it highly unlikely that one team would score all their tries in the corner while another would score all their under the posts, or one team would play in a gale while another would play in perfect calm.

I think there was some South African site that did a deep dive on various kickers and one thing that came out if it was that Halfpenny would attempt kicks that most others wouldn't, i.e. long range from close to the touchline, which is what set him apart from most other kickers.

For everyone else I'd say things would balance out.

mfceiling

Faugheen wrote: »

Ok fair enough, but how many of those were in front of the posts? Out on the touch line? Over 30m, 40m, 50m? Etc.

If you're judging the best place kicker in the world, raw data isn't enough. It needs to be broken down even further against his peers.

If I have a 95% rate from 60 kicks, but all of my kicks are in front of the posts on the 22, but you have a 90% rate with all of your 60 kicks much further back on the touch line, does that make me a better place kicker than you?

Far from it.

Ah here I'll get you a shovel and you can move those goalposts to suit your argument.

Faugheen

mfceiling wrote: »

Ah here I'll get you a shovel and you can move those goalposts to suit your argument.

How am I moving the goalposts?

If you're going to make a statement like he's the best in the world, you better have a better breakdown than what was provided.

Nobody is denying he's a very good place-kicker and I think it's foolish to say Carbery is better than him.

Don't be such a child because I question what was being said.

Paul Smeenus

Does anyone want to know if any other players at the other provinces share similar messages or, indeed, attitude?

Presumably if people are unhappy that Jackson and Olding would represent Ulster and Ireland given their actions and texts,  they would want to be certain that no other players had similar views?

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Does anyone want to know if any other players at the other provinces share similar messages or, indeed, attitude?

Presumably if people are unhappy that Jackson and Olding would represent Ulster and Ireland given their actions and texts,  they would want to be certain that no other players had similar views?

Didn't Jackson have minimal involvement in those texts?

sydthebeat

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Does anyone want to know if any other players at the other provinces share similar messages or, indeed, attitude?

Presumably if people are unhappy that Jackson and Olding would represent Ulster and Ireland given their actions and texts,  they would want to be certain that no other players had similar views?

Thankfully what other players say in private happens in private

Paul Smeenus

Hadassah CoolS Backside wrote: »

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Does anyone want to know if any other players at the other provinces share similar messages or, indeed, attitude?

Presumably if people are unhappy that Jackson and Olding would represent Ulster and Ireland given their actions and texts,  they would want to be certain that no other players had similar views?

Didn't Jackson have minimal involvement in those texts?

Yes, but I'm not really interested in that out again. I'm just wondering if folk who are appalled at their attitude have any interest in making sure that none of the other current players share it.

Paul Smeenus

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yes, but I'm not really interested in that out again. I'm just wondering if folk who are appalled at their attitude have any interest in making sure that none of the other current players share it.

I don't know how I'm meant to make sure no other players send similar texts.

foxyladyxx

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Does anyone want to know if any other players at the other provinces share similar messages or, indeed, attitude?

Presumably if people are unhappy that Jackson and Olding would represent Ulster and Ireland given their actions and texts,  they would want to be certain that no other players had similar views?

If all the players' private messages were made public and judged in the same manner as Paddy Jackson and Co we would not be able to field an International team at all .

Dubinusa

I hope SO signs with Exeter. I hope he plays well and makes a good living. He's paid his pound of flesh and it's time to move on. He'll be a great addition to a really strong team and who knows, he could break hearts at Thomond or the RDS next season.
PJ will do very well wherever he goes. If it's France, he will make a small fortune and I think he will thrive. He Is an international class 10 and I think will be a top player in the top 14.
I believe his international career is over. Any club that signs him now will have him for the duration and that probably makes him more attractive to sign.
It's a shame this happened, for all involved.

prawnsambo

foxyladyxx wrote: »

If all the players' private messages were made public and judged in the same manner as Paddy Jackson and Co we would not be able to field an International team at all .

I think we're meant to assume that they are all sending the same kinds of messages and act accordingly. Sort of "Kill them all, God will know his own". :rolleyes:

launish116

Some talk Stephen Larkham is in the running for coach. 
Also Ulster & Stade Français after Cipriani. Hopefully Stade get him.

hogandrew

launish116 wrote: »

Some talk Stephen Larkham is in the running for coach. 
Also Ulster & Stade Français after Cipriani. Hopefully Stade get him.

Surely that Cipriani rumour can't have any substance behind it? He's hardly one to clean up the image.

errlloyd

launish116 wrote: »

Some talk Stephen Larkham is in the running for coach. 
Also Ulster & Stade Français after Cipriani. Hopefully Stade get him.

Ohhhh any source for that Larkham rumour.

bilston

launish116 wrote: »

Some talk Stephen Larkham is in the running for coach. 
Also Ulster & Stade Français after Cipriani. Hopefully Stade get him.

I'd take Cipriani for a season.

bilston

hogandrew wrote: »

launish116 wrote: »

Some talk Stephen Larkham is in the running for coach. 
Also Ulster & Stade Français after Cipriani. Hopefully Stade get him.

Surely that Cipriani rumour can't have any substance behind it? He's hardly one to clean up the image.

Why does Ulster need to clean up its image? What's it done wrong?

joseywhales

Buer wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

awec wrote: »

Buer wrote: »

At times he did. At other times he selected Jackson even on the bench. As I said above, Jackson's goal kicking wasn't in the same bracket and that had to be a major concern particularly when the RWC crunch games arrived.

As an outhalf though, I don't think Madigan was ever as good and that has been borne out by their respective performances when given the starting green jersey.

You are correct. He wasn't.

Right but the only objective opinion we have is the one of the Irish coach in the most important game of the 4 year cycle.

Schmidt isn't infallible. I believe he had something of a soft spot for Madigan and the decision in the RWC came back to bite him badly in the end.

I may well have made the same call though. When it came to the crunch, Madigan's goal kicking was too valuable to leave out given Jackson wasn't kicking for Ulster at that point.

I don't think madigan was the reason we lost to Argentina.

Also his goal kicking is an attribute of him as a player *if* it was the reason he was picked, that doesn't mean he wasn't picked ahead of Jackson.

Also if being picked ahead of someone deos not mean that you have out competed them then your previous point that Jackson out competed ogara based on his selection for one game in the 6n is false.

You're reading things I've never said whatsoever again. He played poorly. I never said he was the reason we lost. That would be silly.

I never said Madigan wasn't selected ahead in the RWC. I highlighted a potential reason for it.

And Jackson was picked to start in three games in that 6N in 2013 ahead of ROG. Just because they were at different stages, it doesn't mean they were competing for the same spot and Jackson was selected. It's a straw man. Just the way Madigan was preferred in the RWC.

But I believe they've gone on to show who is the clear better player since then. It's not some binary situation where a guy gets selected so is clearly a better player.

The point is, Jackson is the only other available Irish outhalf that is fully proven test level outhalf outside of Sexton but will always struggle to get full credit from some.

Ok so I take your point that despite the fact that madigan was selected ahead of Jackson at the time, that Jackson has become a better outhalf later.

I also believe that despite the fact that Jackson was selected ahead of ogara he has never gone on to become a better outhalf than ogara was before.

Madigan<Jackson<ogara