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M21 - Limerick to Rathkeale/Foynes [advance works to commence shortly]

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    #362
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Not what I heard before. Thought the M11 was eligible too due to being E01 - isn't the Enniscorthy bypass getting some EU funding right now?


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    #363
    tubbs26
    Registered Users Posts: 115 ✭✭tubbs26


    Has anyone got a image of the proposed route? The website seems to be down.

    My wife is from Kerry. This road would be a huge time saver for us


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    #364
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    tubbs26 wrote: »
    Has anyone got a image of the proposed route? The website seems to be down.

    My wife is from Kerry. This road would be a huge time saver for us

    It's working for me. https://www.foyneslimerick.ie/


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    #365
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Ground investigation for this scheme is almost complete. Midwest RDO and An Bord Pleanala are undergoing a pre-application consultation before submission of EIS and CPO to An Bord Pleanala in 2018.

    This could start in late 2020 if approved and no objections - funding allowing of coruse.


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    #366
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There is a proposal to amend the Limerick County Development Plan to facilitate this scheme instead of the old pisstake N21 Adare Bypass scheme:

    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2018-01/Proposed%20Variation%20text.pdf


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    #367
    pajoguy
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    The Woodlands have made a submission based on the "dangerous" location of the slip road into Adare not tying with the existing roundabout at the Lantern Lodge. It would certainly affect their trade a bit.
    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/290861/limerick-planners-urged-to-change-dangerous-proposal-for-new-exit-to-village.html


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    #368
    Vanquished
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    pajoguy wrote: »
    The Woodlands have made a submission based on the "dangerous" location of the slip road into Adare not tying with the existing roundabout at the Lantern Lodge. It would certainly affect their trade a bit.
    http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/290861/limerick-planners-urged-to-change-dangerous-proposal-for-new-exit-to-village.html

    It's difficult to tell whether this is poor reporting by the Limerick Leader (a fairly regular occurrance these days) or a baseless complaint by the Woodlands Hotel. But I can't see any substance whatsoever to this assertion that business will suffer as a result of the new M21 junction. The crux of the argument seems to be that the addition of 2 new roundabouts as part of the dumbbell junction leading to the Lantern Lodge roundabout will mean people are less likely to visit the hotel. The reference to "passing trade" seems to suggest that they'd be much happier with the status quo.


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    #369
    pajoguy
    Registered Users Posts: 793 ✭✭✭pajoguy


    Vanquished wrote: »
    It's difficult to tell whether this is poor reporting by the Limerick Leader (a fairly regular occurrance these days) or a baseless complaint by the Woodlands Hotel. But I can't see any substance whatsoever to this assertion that business will suffer as a result of the new M21 junction. The crux of the argument seems to be that the addition of 2 new roundabouts as part of the dumbbell junction leading to the Lantern Lodge roundabout will mean people are less likely to visit the hotel. The reference to "passing trade" seems to suggest that they'd be much happier with the status quo.

    My understanding is that they would like the interchange to link directly to the lantern lodge roundabout via the clouncanna road and not 500m to the west of the lantern lodge. They feel that motorists will be less likely to double back to venture into the woodlands instead of going into the village or maybe stopping at the new hotel in NCW. Most of their business has been built up over the years so its will hardly have too dramatic an affect.


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    #370
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Limerick74


    pajoguy wrote: »
    My understanding is that they would like the interchange to link directly to the lantern lodge roundabout via the clouncanna road and not 500m to the west of the lantern lodge. They feel that motorists will be less likely to double back to venture into the woodlands instead of going into the village or maybe stopping at the new hotel in NCW. Most of their business has been built up over the years so its will hardly have too dramatic an affect.

    That means an extra 1km journey for everyone going into Adare (500+500). The current proposal does not add any more distance to Woodlands Hotel Traffic than the alternative proposal. Common sense should prevail here and take the current design forward to the Board.


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    #371
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,547 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    What’s the M20/M21 junction going to be like? Surely they won’t build it with the mainline going to Foynes?

    Will the full junction be built as part of this scheme? If not, then it’s likely the main line will follow to M21.


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    #372
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Limerick74


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    What’s the M20/M21 junction going to be like? Surely they won’t build it with the mainline going to Foynes?

    Will the full junction be built as part of this scheme? If not, then it’s likely the main line will follow to M21.

    The M20/M21 Junction will remain as it is as part of the Foynes Limerick Scheme.


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    #373
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    As Limerick74 said, the existing Attyflin interchange will remain as is. The only change is that the current signage will be taken down and replaced with blue ones.

    It's unclear whether the J1-J4 signs will need to be replaced and (N21) replaced with (M21).

    The M20 interchange with the new M20 will become clear once route selection is finalised. That's some time away yet. Anyhow, that's a discussion for the M20 thread.


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    #374
    Vanquished
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Vanquished


    AugustusMinimus wrote: »
    What’s the M20/M21 junction going to be like? Surely they won’t build it with the mainline going to Foynes?

    Will the full junction be built as part of this scheme? If not, then it’s likely the main line will follow to M21.

    The M20/M21 interchange will be built as part of the M20 project. Hopefully we will get a full interchange with all movements catered for. But you can never be sure with the road designers and bean counters we have here. The M20 - M21 will more than likely continue as the mainline as that is the direction of the predominant traffic flow.


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    #375
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Correct. The existing N20/N21 junction will be retained as is but with the N20 renumbered to an R route. The new M20/M21 junction will be at a slightly different location.


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    #376
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    4 sets of traffic counters on the N21 today. One just at the Golf Club entrance entering Adare, one just west of Adare, one on the Adare side of Croagh and one between the Rathkeale interchange and Reens Pike, near where the M21 will end.

    8pm this evening and all the way from the M20 to Newcastlewest it was 3rd/4th gear. It's sad that there are now plans for substantial dualling of the N2, N4, N17, N20, N22 and N24 but the N21 is getting 2 single carraigeway relief roads. The volume of traffic on the N21, especially once the M21 opens, deserves far more than this.

    A discussion on the Adare bypass from Live95

    https://www.live95fm.ie/on-air/shows/limerick-today/limerick-today-podcasts/january-2018/limerick-today-adare-bypass,-what-will-it-mean-f/


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    #377
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Regarding the Adare issue, I would be in favour of changing this in favour of the resident's proposal.

    1. Using the L1424 instead of a new link road would reduce the cost of the scheme and also reduce the amount of roundabouts in the area. The existing road can be widened between the M21 and the old N21 roundabout, there are no houses along the route and it's quite short.

    2. If the current proposal goes ahead it'll be objected to and further delay the project, so we may as well try and avoid this. A similar project in Cork, the M28 is now almost a full year waiting for planning approval due to objections.


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    #378
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    Regarding the Adare issue, I would be in favour of changing this in favour of the resident's proposal.

    1. Using the L1424 instead of a new link road would reduce the cost of the scheme and also reduce the amount of roundabouts in the area. The existing road can be widened between the M21 and the old N21 roundabout, there are no houses along the route and it's quite short.

    2. If the current proposal goes ahead it'll be objected to and further delay the project, so we may as well try and avoid this. A similar project in Cork, the M28 is now almost a full year waiting for planning approval due to objections.

    I don't agree with your first point. The alternative option (Woodlands Hotel design not residents) proposes a much longer (500m longer) link road from the Adare Junction to the existing Lantern Lodge Roundabout and does not utilise any of the existing L1424. It may actually require an additional roundabout to tie in the L1424 and will require the Lantern Lodge roundabout to be potentially doubled in size as it would have to meet current standards.

    I also do not believe the argument of potential loss of trade put forward by the hotel in respect of the arrangement of the link road. The bypass itself is their big fear not the junction arrangement. Their arguments would not stand up to challenge at an oral hearing.


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    #379
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    I don't agree with your first point. The alternative option (Woodlands Hotel design not residents) proposes a much longer (500m longer) link road from the Adare Junction to the existing Lantern Lodge Roundabout and does not utilise any of the existing L1424. It may actually require an additional roundabout to tie in the L1424 and will require the Lantern Lodge roundabout to be potentially doubled in size as it would have to meet current standards.

    I also do not believe the argument of potential loss of trade put forward by the hotel in respect of the arrangement of the link road. The bypass itself is their big fear not the junction arrangement. Their arguments would not stand up to challenge at an oral hearing.

    If using the L1424 is out of the question then I'd stick with the current plan. All I was thinking was using the L1424, realigned to serve as the link road rather than building a needless parallel link road and another roundabout.

    I also don't think there's much room for a huge roundabout near the Golf Club. It's quite tight around there.

    I agree with the comment about the Woodlands, most people passing through Adare just want to get the **** out of there. The M21 isn't going to make the Woodlands less attractive for weddings and functions. If anything it will improve accessibility and possibly increase business from Kerry etc


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    #380
    Mrs Dempsey
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mrs Dempsey


    The annoyance at not featuring lantern Lodge as an "iconic gateway" entrance feature for Adare, I fully understand - the Woodlands loss of trade issue is a horse of a different coloured red herring IMHO. Have been to functions there but never used it as a "road house" - even when using the rat run.
    A long planning wrangle potentially delaying this piece of infrastructure possibly condemns me to being a frequently stranded spectator in Adare & environs for even longer.


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    #381
    danny004
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭danny004


    marno21 wrote: »

    A similar project in Cork, the M28 is now almost a full year waiting for planning approval due to objections.

    the EIS for the M28 was only published in the summer with an application for planning submitted to ABP in August /September.

    It was the design and redesign phase plus the project being shelved due to downturn in economy and port of corks planning initially refused for ringaskiddy which have led to the majority of delays of this scheme and this was long before any Mount Oval group entered the arena with their 2 pence


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    #382
    cupthehand1
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭cupthehand1


    Should it be a concern that there was no mention of this in this weeks Capital Investment Plan


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    #383
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    cupthehand1 wrote: »
    Should it be a concern that there was no mention of this in this weeks Capital Investment Plan
    There was. Page 43:

    N21/N69 Limerick to Adare to Foynes


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    #384
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    There was. Page 43:

    N21/N69 Limerick to Adare to Foynes

    And also included in the NPF on pages 51 & 142.


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    #385
    cupthehand1
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭cupthehand1


    marno21 wrote: »
    There was. Page 43:

    N21/N69 Limerick to Adare to Foynes

    My apologies, never spotted it


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    #386
    Shurwhynot
    Registered Users Posts: 561 ✭✭✭Shurwhynot


    Is this likely to cut the travel time from Killarney to Limerick by much?


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    #387
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Shurwhynot wrote: »
    Is this likely to cut the travel time from Killarney to Limerick by much?

    Takes you out of Adare and stops you getting caught behind slow drivers as far as Rathkeale. The road stays the same after that, so I wouldn't expect much of a saving outside of peak times.


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    #388
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The 17km from the end of the M20 to where this scheme ends can take upto 45 minutes at peak times. The journey time when this opens will be 9 minutes. It also takes out the 50km/h zone at Adare and the 60km/h zone at Croagh. No more getting caught behind buses or trucks.

    The effect this will have on the N21 at Newcastlewest will be interesting to say the least.

    I can see a lot of traffic taking the R523 as an alternative at peak times when heading to Tralee (via Listowel) or even Abbeyfeale and beyond.


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    #389
    Happy Dragon
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Happy Dragon


    I can see a lot of traffic taking the R523 as an alternative at peak times when heading to Tralee (via Listowel) or even Abbeyfeale and beyond.

    When the Listowel bypass is completed, it will certainly encourage more traffic to take the R523 route, than the N21 to Tralee.


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    #390
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    When the Listowel bypass is completed, it will certainly encourage more traffic to take the R523 route, than the N21 to Tralee.

    Very true especially given the Listowel bypass will be complete at least 7/8 years before the Abbeyfeale/Newcastle bypasses


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    #391
    Limerick74
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭Limerick74


    Limerick Councillors just passed the variation to the County Development Plan which supports the scheme. A big hurdle overcome.


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