The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:24PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

How many people who would have made the world considerably worse for millions of other people were never let enter the world alive to do so?

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

Zubeneschamali · 04-04-2018 03:25PM

RobertKK wrote: »

We could all be living in a totally different reality

I think we are already living in different realities, Robert.

captbarnacles · 04-04-2018 03:26PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

Yawn. Your ilk spouted all this nonsense against contraception as well.

It wasnt me123 · 04-04-2018 03:26PM

kylith wrote: »

How many people are currently living in pain and hunger and torment because their mothers couldn't access abortion services?

Exactly.

Look at all those poor street children in the Third World (India, parts of South America) because they were born into families that didn't want them and couldn't afford them. You don't think they wish their families had had better family planning instead of discarding them at birth.

Repeal all the way - everybody living in Ireland is entitled to obtain all medical services that they want in their own Country.

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:26PM

JDD wrote: »

Sure everyone has an emotive story to produce. The thing is, there are millions upon millions of children that could be born each year, but are not because of contraception or abstinence. I'm sure a percentage of them would be great footballers, or scientists, or astronauts. The same percentage of the population who are already those types of people. And the same proportion of those potential lives would be Hitlers and paedophiles and murders as we have in the normal general population. But we've got what we've got.

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

bertieinexile · 04-04-2018 03:28PM

captbarnacles wrote: »

Looking forward to the giant billboard with a still of Ronaldos bicycle kick besides '#savethe8th'.

That is brilliant! Please, please, someone make this happen!

seamus · 04-04-2018 03:28PM

RobertKK wrote: »

So you are comparing a unique life with a lottery ticket...

It's actually very apt. Everyone looks at the winning lotto numbers and assigns a special value to them; as if this grouping of numbers is more important than any other. When it's actually just a random selection of numbers, no more special or valuable than any other.

Likewise a unique person is just a random rearrangement of genes, no more special than any other.

ohnonotgmail · 04-04-2018 03:29PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

yes, quite easily. If you want a counter-example imagine hitler was aborted, or stalin, or Mao? Millions of people would not have suffered and died.

volchitsa · 04-04-2018 03:30PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

So in a world of, what is it, 9 billion people now?, and stretched to the limit of earth's resources, we need millions, possibly billions more people, because one of those as yet unborn people might make a discovery that would save the planet?

Is that really your argument?

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:30PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I think we are already living in different realities, Robert.

Yes some believe that innocent life is a choice and others don't think innocent life is something one can choose to discriminate against.

NuMarvel · 04-04-2018 03:31PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Cristiano Ronaldo's mother wanted to abort him as they were poor, but her doctor didn't support the decision. She said Cristiano knows and from her biography she said "He told me he found out, 'look mum, you wanted to abort and now I'm the one who's pulling the purse string in the house'"
She had a good doctor and it ended up transforming her life and that of her family.

At the time of that pregnancy, Portugal had repealed their absolute ban on abortion, and replaced it with laws that allowed abortion on grounds of risk to a woman's health or life, or in cases of FFA.

So without realising it, you've actually made the argument for repeal. Because this example shows we don't need blunt instruments like the 8th, we just need to trust women and their doctors, and make sure the law supports their decisions, whatever those decisions may be.

bertieinexile · 04-04-2018 03:31PM

RobertKK wrote: »

If people respected all life maybe people wouldn't see other lives being expendable.

Beautifully put RobertKK.

....... · 04-04-2018 03:32PM

This post has been deleted.

OldNotWIse · 04-04-2018 03:33PM

Hundreds of pages of people insulting each other and engaging in Olympian mental gymnastics. What a waste of time and energy in a context where each of you will only have one vote anyway :pac:

Zubeneschamali · 04-04-2018 03:39PM

bertieinexile wrote: »

That is brilliant! Please, please, someone make this happen!

I was staring at this one for about 10 seconds trying to figure out how it was a savethe8th message:

kylith · 04-04-2018 03:39PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Can bad people make the whole planet forget a revolution in a discovery by one person, or an invention that transform technology, or the joy a world class sports person brings to people?

What if the kid to make that discovery was already born, but she was raped when she was 16 and had to drop out of school to have the baby so she never went to college? What if because she dropped out of school she had to take a minimum wage job and her amazing mind was totally wasted because instead of being able to take 2 tablets 4 weeks into a pregnancy she had to have a child she wasn't able to properly care for and now instead of making an amazing scientific breakthrough she lives in a council flat and has a drinking problem because of her feeling of wasted potential and lost dreams coupled with PND and trauma from having to have her rapists baby, and the kid she was forced to have sets fire to stuff for fun and commits petty theft in the local Spar?

Timberrrrrrrr · 04-04-2018 03:41PM

RobertKK wrote: »

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

For every Ronaldo story there are a million Lynn Beisner stories

Here's a woman who wishes she had have been aborted.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/i-wish-my-mother-aborted-me

In the last couple of months, I have read two of these abortion deliverance stories that have been particularly offensive. The first story is one propagated by Rebecca Kiessling, the poster child for the no exceptions in cases of rape or incest.

What makes these stories so infuriating to me is that they are emotional blackmail. As readers or listeners, we are almost forced by these anti-choice versions of A Wonderful Life to say, "Oh, I am so glad you were born." And then by extension, we are soon forced into saying, "Yes, of course, every blastula of cells should be allowed to develop into a human being."

An abortion would have absolutely been better for my mother. If nothing else, getting an abortion would have saved her from plunging into poverty. She likely would have stayed in the same socioeconomic strata as her parents and grandparents who were professors. I wish she had aborted me because I love her and want what is best for her.

With that constellation of factors, there was a very high statistical probability that my mother would be an abusive parent, that we would spend the rest of our lives in crushing poverty, and that we would both be highly vulnerable to predatory organisations and men. And that is exactly what happened. She abused me, beating me viciously and often. We lived in bone-crushing poverty, and our little family became a magnet for predatory men and organisations.

If this were an anti-choice story, this is the part where I would tell you how I overcame great odds and my life now has special meaning. I would ask you to affirm that, of course, you are happy I was born, and that the world would be a darker, poorer place without me.

It is not easy to say, "I wish my mother had aborted me." The right would have us see abortion as women acting out of cowardice, selfishness, or convenience. But for many women, like my mother, abortion would be an inconvenient act of courage and selflessness. I am sad for both of us that she could not find the courage and selflessness

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:42PM

volchitsa wrote: »

So in a world of, what is it, 9 billion people now?, and stretched to the limit of earth's resources, we need millions, possibly billions more people, because one of those as yet unborn people might make a discovery that would save the planet?

Is that really your argument?

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

It wasnt me123 · 04-04-2018 03:43PM

Kylith, I'd read that book! It has everything, romance, disappointment, drug addiction - I can see a mini series forming

JDD · 04-04-2018 03:44PM

But we are talking about lives that did exist and which had or in the case of others did not have their lives turned off.

But that's nothing to do with your argument. You're saying that we shouldn't allow abortion as there is the possibility that one of those aborted fetuses may become a net contributor to society and not a net taker. I have said that the logical take on that is that there will be the exact same proportion of net contributors in that group of aborted fetuses as there are in the general born population. And as an extension of that, there would be the exact same proportion of net contributors in the population of fetuses that may have been conceived if it wasn't for contraception. It's not an argument for outlawing contraception, so why would it be an argument for banning abortion.

You say that there is a difference because the fetuses already exist. I don't think that makes a difference at all. You're trying to connect the "but there could be a genius" argument to the "but it has a right to life from conception" argument, when I don't see the connection between these two arguments at all.

January · 04-04-2018 03:44PM

RobertKK wrote: »

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

Ah now. Ah now lads. Someone print this and frame it. Quick.

kylith · 04-04-2018 03:44PM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Kylith, I'd read that book! It has everything, romance, disappointment, drug addiction - I can see a mini series forming

Better copyright that PDQ so.

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:47PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

For every Ronaldo story there are a million Lynn Beisner stories

Here's a woman who wishes she had have been aborted.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/15/i-wish-my-mother-aborted-me

It is not emotional blackmail when a story is real, maybe it is emotional reality.
Why did the woman's parents and grandparents who were from well off backgrounds not support their daughter/granddaughter?

It sounds like the person had a mother who had useless parents who didn't teach their child properly and didn't care enough, and she took it out on her child.

It wasnt me123 · 04-04-2018 03:50PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Hundreds of pages of people insulting each other and engaging in Olympian mental gymnastics. What a waste of time and energy in a context where each of you will only have one vote anyway :pac:

Insulting is a bit strong - disagreeing definitely but shure its only a bit of craic (the american Save the 8th posters are googling that right now).

You see my positive bonhomie might influence a Dont Know to vote repeal and the save the 8th nonsense - Robert KK is talking about saving Martian babies now - it just makes me laugh - so on a quiet day at work, its a win win for Repeal.

Repeal all the way - my one vote does count (also my husbands) so thats 2

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:50PM

January wrote: »

Ah now. Ah now lads. Someone print this and frame it. Quick.

Thanks.

You might not know what I am thanking you for but that doesn't matter.

Zubeneschamali · 04-04-2018 03:52PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It sounds like the person had a mother who had useless parents who didn't teach their child properly and didn't care enough, and she took it out on her child.

Probably never went to Mass except at Christmas. Serves them all right, I say.

(This thread gets better all the time!)

RobertKK · 04-04-2018 03:54PM

kylith wrote: »

What if the kid to make that discovery was already born, but she was raped when she was 16 and had to drop out of school to have the baby so she never went to college? What if because she dropped out of school she had to take a minimum wage job and her amazing mind was totally wasted because instead of being able to take 2 tablets 4 weeks into a pregnancy she had to have a child she wasn't able to properly care for and now instead of making an amazing scientific breakthrough she lives in a council flat and has a drinking problem because of her feeling of wasted potential and lost dreams coupled with PND and trauma from having to have her rapists baby, and the kid she was forced to have sets fire to stuff for fun and commits petty theft in the local Spar?

What if the kid did a nice gesture to someone who was feeling down and it was a time they needed someone to do a kind gesture for them.
Sometimes I think some people here must live miserable lives...it is so dark, maybe some are Irish Times journalists...

Timberrrrrrrr · 04-04-2018 03:56PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It is not emotional blackmail when a story is real, maybe it is emotional reality.
Why did the woman's parents and grandparents who were from well off backgrounds not support their daughter/granddaughter?

It sounds like the person had a mother who had useless parents who didn't teach their child properly and didn't care enough, and she took it out on her child.

If you had read the story you would know that the grandmother committed suicide.

Here's the reasons why

An abortion would have been best for me because there is no way that my love-starved, trauma-addled mother could have ever put me up for adoption. It was either abortion or raising me herself, and she was in no position to raise a child. She had suffered a traumatic brain injury, witnessed and experienced severe domestic violence, and while she was in grade school she was raped by a stranger and her mother committed suicide. She was severely depressed and suicidal,

kylith · 04-04-2018 03:56PM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Robert KK is talking about saving Martian babies now -

Hang on, he could be onto something. If we insist that ALL the babies are born we could all stand on each other's shoulders and reach into space that way.

volchitsa · 04-04-2018 03:57PM

RobertKK wrote: »

We will be living on other planets and moons, people need to expand their minds to where human civilisation is headed.
An asteroid could easily wipe out most of the planet, maybe a supervolcano causing a volcanic winter like when Mount Toba erupted roughly 75,000 years ago.
Today's population could easily be mostly wiped out by natural causes, because the Earth has a history for wiping out at a lot of life in big events, In time the world's population will be far lower and there is nothing that can stop some natural events.
Humans have all their eggs in one basket on this planet, likewise some other human lives had their eggs in a woman who is for or against an abortion as a choice and it decided their outcome.

I have no idea how this is related to the fact that women need to be able to decide when or whether they are going to bring a new person into the world.

You seem to have wandered off into the realms of science fiction here, and I am at a loss as to how this can possibly relate to Savita Hallappanavar who needed a surgical termination but was refused one, or to the child who was put in a mental hospital instead of getting the abortion she asked for.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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