The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Simi

thee glitz wrote: »

If the proposed legislation was stricter than it is ie. not allowing for abortion for no reason, but dependent on an assessment of reasonability...

An assessment of responsibility? Are you suggesting we form tribunals to adjudicate how worthy a woman is of receiving medical care?

What would be the level of proof a woman would need to provide to satisfy YOU that she is deserving of an abortion? Would women need to provide bank statements, character references, medical records, evidence of contraceptive use?

No woman wakes up in the morning and decides 'oh I think I'll have an abortion today for no reason.' She has a reason and that's all that matters. She should never have to explain it or justify it to people like you.

Billy86

DubInMeath wrote: »

Any woman who chooses to have an abortion will have a reason to do so and I don't believe it would be a trivial matter to them to do so, so I don't see where your getting your abortion for no reason argument from. What' exactly is no reason in your opinion?

I would hope most sensible people have no issue with a woman obtaining an abortion for her own personal reasons within the purposes 12 week time frame.

Well, your first mistake was assuming women are able to think for themselves. Clearly they are not. Therefore, choice is a bad thing. The silly girls will go and get abortions for no reason, not even knowing why they are doing it a bit like buy an iPod when they first came around, then will regret it for the rest of their lives. We men need to save them from their own delicate minds and thick skulls you see, and they will thank us for it when that little bump on their bellies is being sent to it's very first foster home.

I think that should clear the matter up.

Thanks Billy, you just proved to the wife that she has the wrong opinion of me and I'm actually very trusting of all people and a bit naive :-)

thee glitz

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Do you really think that there cam ever be a situation of "no reason" for having an abortion?

I'd say 'I just want to' is equivalent to 'no reason', certainty a subset of 'no good reason'.

Do you have children?

Not sure - I've 1 so?

Do you know people with children?

I know at least 3 people who have kids.

Any child, no matter how wanted upends every aspect of a woman's life, both during pregnancy and afterwards.

Yes - that's being a parent.

Not wanting to be pregnant is a very good reason for wanting an abortion as is not wanting to have a child.

Not wanting to be pregnant or have a child explains why you'd want an abortion. But how can you justify it?

Are you so dismissive of women's hopes, dreams, lives and struggles that you can call not wanting to be pregnant no reason?

My boss, her boss, are women, doing a great job - I wouldn't class myself as a misogynist.

baylah17

thee glitz wrote: »

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Do you really think that there cam ever be a situation of "no reason" for having an abortion?

I'd say 'I just want to' is equivalent to 'no reason', certainty a subset of 'no good reason'.

Do you have children?

Not sure - I've 1 so?

Do you know people with children?

I know at least 3 people who have kids.

Any child, no matter how wanted upends every aspect of a woman's life, both during pregnancy and afterwards.

Yes - that's being a parent.

Not wanting to be pregnant is a very good reason for wanting an abortion as is not wanting to have a child.

Not wanting to be pregnant or have a child explains why you'd want an abortion. But how can you justify it?

Are you so dismissive of women's hopes, dreams, lives and struggles that you can call not wanting to be pregnant no reason?

My boss, her boss, are women, doing a great job - I wouldn't class myself as a misogynist.

The misogynistic arrogance of you demanding that any woman "justify" her decision.
Who do you think you are to demand any woman justify her decision to small minded bizzybodies like you
How does my wife or daughters decisions become any of your business?
#rejectmisogyny
Embrace Repeal

thee glitz

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

It was only a few pages ago you were saying that pro-choice were telling children born from rape to kill themselves

I never did. Got issues?

erica74

Has anyone seen any prochoice posters or anything around where they live? I live just outside Waterford City and I haven't seen a single prochoice poster. All I see are those 3 stupid vans driving around with their antichoice nonsense on the sides.

baylah17

erica74 wrote: »

Has anyone seen any prochoice posters or anything around where they live? I live just outside Waterford City and I haven't seen a single prochoice poster. All I see are those 3 stupid vans driving around with their antichoice nonsense on the sides.

No
I live in Dublin 14 and see nothing but the anti-woman posters,

Edward M

erica74 wrote: »

Has anyone seen any prochoice posters or anything around where they live? I live just outside Waterford City and I haven't seen a single prochoice poster. All I see are those 3 stupid vans driving around with their antichoice nonsense on the sides.

Nothing around Cavan or Longford either that I've noticed.
The only thing I've encountered so far are people handing out pro life leaflets after a football match in Cavan.

Zerbini Blewitt

Are you so dismissive of women's hopes, dreams, lives and struggles that you can call not wanting to be pregnant no reason?

thee glitz wrote: »

My boss, her boss, are women, doing a great job - I wouldn't class myself as a misogynist.

Of course, you wouldn’t. I’d say not a single pro-lifer in the country believes he/she is a misogynist – even those who would be of the view that the death of a woman is not sufficient grounds for allowing an abortion.

Those who are not pro-life (not pro forced-incubation) can clearly see that all pro-lifers (even the mildest) are misogynists (re: first trimester).

One either believes that a woman has the rights of any citizen that have evolved over the past 1,000 years of history or you believe she becomes state property or a vessel who must be discriminated against and have important rights & protections stripped away from the moment a pregnancy test result comes in.

It is a binary thing; There is no wriggle room.

Annasopra

erica74 wrote: »

Has anyone seen any prochoice posters or anything around where they live? I live just outside Waterford City and I haven't seen a single prochoice poster. All I see are those 3 stupid vans driving around with their antichoice nonsense on the sides.

The national campaign has no posters up anywhere yet for various reasons.

It wasnt me123

Nothing in Clonmel either that I can see.

What I have come across online is the Together for Yes FB pages - I'm liking them all, spreading the truth that way. I'm particularly delighted to see older people, who voted for this amendment in 1983, now being prochoice as they see the misery that the amendment has caused.

Repeal all the way = no busybody has any say in my body autonomy

Ave Sodalis

thee glitz wrote: »

I never did. Got issues?

Yes, you did.

thee glitz wrote: »

did you ask them why they haven't killed themselves yet?

What issues do you think I have, exactly?

bertieinexile

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Is it just me and if so I'll delete the post, but say when Bertie stops posting, Robert KK comes in and when he goes out another one comes in to post. Its like they're on a roster 10 till 2 Bertie, 2 to 6 RobertKK, then Bertie is back and then.....

Is that 10 o'clock Irish time or 10 o'clock in New York?

citygal93

Article in today's independent on this: 'This is completely unacceptable' - Toy shop apologises as abortion referendum material delivered inside catalogues

Zubeneschamali

baylah17 wrote: »

No woman should be required to give a bizxybody like you a reason for exercising her right to bodily autonomy.

I am not a big Varadkar fan, but I did like this quote on how abortion will be after the 8th is repealed:

"No longer an article of our Constitution, but rather a private and personal matter for women and doctors".

thee glitz

baylah17 wrote: »

No woman should be required to give a bizxybody like you a reason for exercising her right to bodily autonomy.
Her body her rights her business
#trustwomen

trustwomen what? The logical conclusion from your post, and previous, is that you're against any restrictions on abortion. I appreciate that, unlike many, you answered my question.

erica74

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The national campaign has no posters up anywhere yet for various reasons.

What are the various reasons?

SusieBlue

thee glitz wrote: »

I'd say 'I just want to' is equivalent to 'no reason', certainty a subset of 'no good reason'.


Not sure - I've 1 so?



I know at least 3 people who have kids.


Yes - that's being a parent.



Not wanting to be pregnant or have a child explains why you'd want an abortion. But how can you justify it?



My boss, her boss, are women, doing a great job - I wouldn't class myself as a misogynist.

Just because a crisis pregnancy hasn't knocked on your door yet, doesn't mean it never will.
I can say with total confidence that there will be a day where you will be glad that people like me voted Yes for people like you.

Zubeneschamali

thee glitz wrote: »

So what is the appetite to legislate for stricter laws than proposed around here?

From pro-choice people? Zero. The proposed legislation is already a compromise between the pro-choice side and the more conservative on the Citizen's Assembly:

48% have recommended that the termination of pregnancy without restriction should be lawful up to 12 weeks gestation age only.
44 % have recommended that the termination of pregnancy without restriction should be lawful up to 22 weeks’ gestation age only.
8% have recommended that the termination of pregnancy with no restriction to gestational age.

The pro-life crew seem to be betting the house on defeating the amendment in the Referendum. I have not heard word one from their side about the legislation to follow.

If they lose the referendum, it will be hard for them to fight on given that the outline of the legislation has been well-flagged and will effectively be authorised by the Yes vote.

January

erica74 wrote: »

What are the various reasons?

Lack of funds is the main one.

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Experience_day

SusieBlue wrote: »

Just because a crisis pregnancy hasn't knocked on your door yet, doesn't mean it never will.
I can say with total confidence that there will be a day where you will be glad that people like me voted Yes for people like you.

I can say with total confidence that it's pretty arrogant (and also wrong) for you to assume that's the case.

rainbow kirby

Experience_day wrote: »

I can say with total confidence that it's pretty arrogant (and also wrong) for you to assume that's the case.

People who say that are being blatantly ignorant of the implications of the 8th in continued pregnancy. It affects every pregnant person regardless of whether the pregnancy is a crisis or the most wanted and planned thing ever.

erica74

Experience_day wrote: »

I can say with total confidence that it's pretty arrogant (and also wrong) for you to assume that's the case.

It's pretty arrogant and ignorant for anyone to think they will never be affected by a crisis pregnancy (and crisis pregnancies can be both unwanted and wanted), however, that is the impression you get from antichoice people.
A lot of antichoice people say with absolute certainty "I'd never abort a baby conceived through rape or incest" which is not something you can ever know unless you are in the situation.
A lot of antichoice people say with absolute certainty "I would continue with a pregnancy even if I knew my baby was suffering and dying inside me" which, again, is not something you can ever know unless you are in the situation.
That is arrogance and ignorance.

baylah17

thee glitz wrote: »

trustwomen what? The logical conclusion from your post, and previous, is that you're against any restrictions on abortion. I appreciate that, unlike many, you answered my question.

Oh I do believe in restrictions.
I firmly believe that no woman should be compelled to have an abortion against her will in the same way that i firmly believe that no woman should be compelled to carry an unwanted pregnancy against her will.
You see I trust women and I believe in their right to choose whats best for them, unlike you!

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PhoenixParker

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This bears repeating and emphasis.

The 8th doesn't just affect those seeking abortion, it hangs as a dark cloud over every pregnant woman in Ireland and daily affects the health and wellbeing of women with wanted pregnancies.

Savita didn't want an abortion, she wanted a baby. When she had a miscarriage, the 8th combined with medical incompetence resulted in her death. Without the 8th the way forward would have been 100% clear cut. It could happen to any woman.

Every day the treatment and management of miscarriage is impeded by the 8th.

Every day women's lives are put at risk by the 8th. There is no simple line a doctor or judge can draw "life at risk" to make life saving decisions. When they get it wrong, women die.

Repealing the 8th is 100 times more important than any abortion legislation.

seamus

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Even then, you never know what's going to knock on your door tomorrow, never mind in 10 or twenty years time.

You could a complete loner, in your fifties, only child of two only children, sworn to celibacy and with crippling social anxiety. And apparently the eighth will never affect you.

But one can't say that you won't one day make a close friend of a young woman who later finds herself in a crisis pregnancy.

To say the eighth will never affect you is to be completely naive is short-sighted.

I would wager a large bet that every single person in this country - man and woman - knows at least one woman who has been affected by the eighth amendment.

Not just that they may have had to travel for an abortion, but that their treatment options for a failing pregnancy were curtailed, or the decisions around delivery were made for them by midwives and doctors, or that they simply had to have doctors use innuendo and hushed tones when discussing what should be crystal clear and unambiguous medical information.

Even all the young men saying, "It will never affect me", should go and have a chat to their mothers. I can guarantee you there's a lot she has never told you about her pregnancy(ies).

SusieBlue

Experience_day wrote: »

I can say with total confidence that it's pretty arrogant (and also wrong) for you to assume that's the case.

Completely disagree. The 8th affects every single child bearing aged woman in Ireland.

I'm imagining any sane person watching a loved one, be it a sister, wife, daughter, or friend, suffering in a state of distress.
Her health, well being, or even life is at risk. And I'm just not talking about abortion here, I'm including crisis's that occur during WANTED pregnancies as well.

You love that person, so you would do anything to help them. That will be the day the No voters will be glad of the Yes voters. They will be thankful the person they love can be helped.

Because that's exactly the problem with the anti-choicers, they can't see beyond the end of their noses. Its all about them, their morals, and their beliefs. Their sense of what's right and what's wrong.
They don't care about any one else's.

But as has been proved time and time again, they think its a "special case" when someone THEY love is in need. They would want exceptions to be made for THEIR loved one.
But they don't care about anyone else - their morals and beliefs are more important than someone else's daughter.