The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

Ken.

Link to old thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106464600#post106464600


The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.


Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

Credit to RobertKK for the opening post in the last thread.


If you are thread banned from the old you are thread banned from this one also.

Jen Pigs Fly

I know how I'll be voting - about time we can decide to control what happens to our own bodies

MilesMorales1

I'll be voting to give women control over their own bodies and dispel all this nonsense the anti-choice side is peddling about murdering the unborn and all that rubbish.

robarmstrong

Can't wait for this to be repealed so I can watch a few of the save the 8thers slither back into their caves and look for something else to deny their fellow citizens with.

It's 2018, it's modern times. Abortion happens in Ireland already, this will just broaden it and redefine it so that it will be more accessible (no, not abortion on demand like cretins would say, as it's already been stamped across numerous times that it will be done on a case by case basis along with nothing over 12 weeks before they pop up with the classic "they'll be able to have abortions at any time!!!111 soundbite").

It's time to allow women to have the right to control over their own bodies, grow up.

robarmstrong

Reposting this so it's on the first page.


"ABORTION IS BARBARIC AND GOES AGAINST GOD!!!" - so does having mass graves for babies that were stillborn, ill or just tossed aside by followers of their similar ideology.

"YOU'RE MURDERING A BABY!!!" - see above.

"TAKING A LIFE!!!" - completely ignoring the amount of poor souls who were driven to commit suicide due to the abuse suffered upon them by the same followers as previously mentioned. What about all their lives?

"THEY ARE EQUAL" - no, they really are not. One is an existing person, one is not an existing person (yet). It does not make sense to give an unborn human/fetus/zygote/whatever emotional or non emotional terminology priority rights over an existing human, that's just a fallacy.

"IT'LL BE AN ABORTION ON DEMAND FREE FOR ALL THAT CAN HAPPEN AT ANY TIME DURING A PREGNANCY!!" - absolutely not. It's proposed at a cut-off point of 12 weeks, on a case-by-case basis along with mental health and physical health assessments to ensure that this right is not abused.

retro:electro

100 years of the female vote. Time to end the nonsense and allow women decide for themselves what is best for them. I don’t care what a stranger irrelevant to my life cares about what I should do with my body. It is a matter between a woman and her doctor. Everyone else needs to mind their own.
Don’t want an abortion? Don’t have one.
But your principles and values which bear no relevance to my life should not supersede my own.

RobertKK

Reposting this slightly edited as it was originally a reply, it is about the negative butterfly effect of the missing people in society due to abortion being normalised.

In time I think what some people view as moderate abortion proposals now will in time be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.
I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.
The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.
Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.
Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.
But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

MilesMorales1

RobertKK wrote: »

Reposting this slightly edited as it was originally a reply, it is about the negative butterfly effect of the missing people in society due to abortion being normalised.

In time I think what some people view as moderate abortion proposals now will in time be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.
I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.
The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.
Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.
Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.
But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

What a load of old cobblers.

RobertKK

MilesMorales1 wrote: »

What a load of old cobblers.

You can say that, but you bring no evidence to back up your cobblers. Europe has low birth rates and abortion has a negative impact on European society.

david75

RobertKK wrote: »

You can say that, but you bring no evidence to back up your cobblers.

What will be the aftermath of your imaginary butterfly effect?

You are actually talking nonsense unless youre gifted with some sort of clairvoyance the rest of us aren’t

MilesMorales1

RobertKK wrote: »

You can say that, but you bring no evidence to back up your cobblers. Europe has low birth rates and abortion has a negative impact on European society.

Nope, like most of your ilk you're using appeals to sentimental emotions to try and sway people. You don't have anything to back this up either

Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love

david75

We are not India or China. In no universe are the situations comparable in any way whatsoever.

Grasping at straws there Robert

So abortion is now to blame for racist people...........

Ken.

What do people think of a poll for the thread.
Simple question 'How will you vote in the referendum?'
2 possible answers
I'll vote in favour of repealing the 8th
I'll vote against repealing the 8th.

Virgil°

Conspectus wrote: »

What do people think of a poll for the thread.
Simple question 'How will you vote in the referendum?'
2 possible answers
I'll vote in favour of repealing the 8th
I'll vote against repealing the 8th.

Maybe with an "Undecided as of yet" option?

ill be voting to repeal mind you but it'd be good to know the discussion can have an effect on those on the fence.

david75

Conspectus wrote: »

What do people think of a poll for the thread.
Simple question 'How will you vote in the referendum?'
2 possible answers
I'll vote in favour of repealing the 8th
I'll vote against repealing the 8th.

Lot of pro life posters seem to be new accounts out of nowhere.

Edward M

Conspectus wrote: »

What do people think of a poll for the thread.
Simple question 'How will you vote in the referendum?'
2 possible answers
I'll vote in favour of repealing the 8th
I'll vote against repealing the 8th.

It'd be a good idea, but just from participating, a major percentage in favour of repeal on here, as one poster already said, if it was just boardsies involved, repeal would romp home.
While it would be good to see the actual figures just on here, I don't think it might be overall representative of a countrywide vote.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Conspectus wrote: »

What do people think of a poll for the thread.
Simple question 'How will you vote in the referendum?'
2 possible answers
I'll vote in favour of repealing the 8th
I'll vote against repealing the 8th.

Once it's not a public vote, I see no harm; although it won't be indicative of the general population if previous polls are anything to go by.

Ken.

Good idea on the undecided option and of course Srameen the vote will be private.

RobertKK

david75 wrote: »

What will be the aftermath of your imaginary butterfly effect?

You are actually talking nonsense unless youre gifted with some sort of clairvoyance the rest of us aren’t

Are you saying Germany doesn't have low birth rates?
Are you saying it is good for Germany to have low birth rates with abortion contributing to low birth rates?
Do you think it was good for Germany to try and use the migrant crisis as a means to fill a demographic deficit, which led to an increase in crimes like sexual assaults on women, resentment in society to the point the largest opposition party in Germany is the far right?
Look at the UK, relying on immigration, then the EU referendum came about and immigration which the UK actually needs due to the missing people brought about from legalised abortion where up to 200,000 unborn lives are ended every year. Immigration was one of the reasons people voted for Brexit, but the butterfly effect of killing the unborn for decades meant the UK needs immigrants.
Do you not agree that sex select abortions happen? They happen in the UK among minority communities even though they are illegal.
We see the butterfly effect of it in Asia where men greatly outnumber women.
The butterfly effect of abortion, it may seem as not a big deal, there is evidence from other countries that legalised abortion leads to more abortion not less, but year after year, as the missing people from the result of abortion build up, the effects on society grows as populations will get older as abortion distorts demographics.
There is a reason why Ireland has the youngest population in Europe.

mzungu

RobertKK wrote: »

In time I think what some people view as moderate abortion proposals now will in time be viewed as being extreme. There was a time when slavery was not seen as extreme, there is still slavery in the world in 2018 where people are bought and sold. Because it happens it doesn't mean it should be legal.

No comparison between slavery and abortion and trying to draw one between the two does your argument no favours.

RobertKK wrote: »

I don't believe in the trading of life, where one life is seen as inferior, it is a view that ends up permeating society. It has happened in countries where abortion was legalised, abortion rates go up.

The rates don't actually go up, it just means that they are officially recorded. Big difference.

RobertKK wrote: »

The high levels of abortion has also contributed in the western world for the need for higher immigration given not enough people are being born, and this has led to tensions and the rise of the far right.

Can you provide evidence of this? You are suggesting that abortion results in the need for immigration and helps the far right is a pretty big claim which requires evidence. I think you are incorrect (see answer below) .

RobertKK wrote: »

Back in 2012 the figure was 30% of pregnancies in Europe were aborted or about 2.2 million abortions, a few years later we see Merkel and some others seeing the refugee crisis as a means to fix a demographic problem of not enough young people to fill jobs and pay the taxes. We saw the consequences of this policy and the problem stems from a disregard for life in the womb, which leads to not enough people being born as they are seen as disposable, the replacement of these missing people with immigration from areas of the world which do not share the same culture or heritage. Resentment and now the main opposition party in Germany is a far right party.

The above is not evidence. Germany, and a lot of western nations have low birth rates because there are more options available to advance ones career etc. Developed societies generally have lower birth rates. It has zero to do with abortion.

RobertKK wrote: »

Abortion has led to discrimination against girls in some countries, where we see being an unborn female is the reason to be aborted. Today we see the unbalanced populations in some countries like China and India where tens of million of women are missing in society because females are viewed as inferior, with men who will never have a chance to find a woman to share love, because the women were never given the chance of life as they were seen as disposable in the womb.

That is another big claim, do you have evidence of the above?

RobertKK wrote: »

But this is what we get when people talk about choice, viewing the lives of others as disposable, but not thinking about the consequences down the line.
Abortion brings about a very negative butterfly effect.

Countries with abortion have been moving along fine with no fire and brimstone end of days yada yada yada occurring. As regards "consequences down the line", what exactly do you mean by that? IMO if there was anything to be aware of, we would know about it now as it would have been flagged. But it looks like life will move on and we will be the same as we always have been.

Turtyturd

Using the migrant issues of Germany as an argument against allowing abortion might be the moment you jumped the shark.

RobertKK

mzungu wrote: »

1. No comparison between slavery and abortion. Trying to draw a comparison between the two does your argument no favours.


2.The rates don't actually go up, it just means that they are officially recorded. Big difference.


3. Going to need evidence of this. Abortion results in the need for immigration and helps the far right is a pretty big claim, which requires evidence.


4. The above is not evidence. Germany, and a lot of western nations have low birth rates because there are more options available to advance ones career etc. Developed societies generally have lower birth rates. It has zero to do with abortion.


5. That is a big claim, do you have evidence of the above?


6. Countries with abortion have been moving along fine with no fire and brimstone end of days yada yada yada occurring. As regards "consequences down the line", if there were any, we would have known about them long before now.

Numbered your points to make it easier for you.

1. When the most innocent of human life is seen as disposable, it does permeate into other areas.

2. In the UK the abortion level rose for years after it was legalised, started low but it took many years to build up to what it is now as abortion became normalised and acceptable in the minds of more people as society had made killing the unborn a norm, it built up to an average of 190k to 200k per year.

3. Germany is clear evidence of a country that does not have enough babies born, has between 1 in 5 and 1 in 6 pregnancies aborted Reliant on immigrant workers to fill jobs, Merkel invited in 1 million plus as a means to fill a hole. Germany has around 100,000 abortions a year - it was higher, are you going to argue that say over a 20 year period, that missing around 2 million people who could have been if not aborted, doesn't leave a hole that immigration has to fill? The policy Merkel used to fill the hole, and which led to a rise in the far right.

4. see point 3

5. http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170213-why-millions-of-chinese-men-are-staying-single

China has many millions more men than women, a hangover of the country's one-child policy, which was overturned in 2015, though its effects will last decades more. The gender imbalance is making it hard for many men to find a partner – and the gap is likely to widen. By 2020, it’s estimated there will be 30 million more men than women looking for a partner.

The effects of abortion in all societies is long lasting, whether from sex select abortion or the effects of abortion on societies with already low birth rates.

6. Are they moving along fine? Countries with the far right on the rise due to mass immigration being needed to fill a demographic hole. An estimated 200 million missing women in the world due to sex select abortions which also happen illegally in the UK. The effects of abortion are long lasting on society and are negative.

RobertKK

Turtyturd wrote: »

Using the migrant issues of Germany as an argument against allowing abortion might be the moment you jumped the shark.

But you put across no argument, you make a statement with nothing to back it up.

Martina1991

RobertKK wrote: »

Are you saying Germany doesn't have low birth rates?
Are you saying it is good for Germany to have low birth rates with abortion contributing to low birth rates?
Do you think it was good for Germany to try and use the migrant crisis as a means to fill a demographic deficit, which led to an increase in crimes like sexual assaults on women, resentment in society to the point the largest opposition party in Germany is the far right?
Look at the UK, relying on immigration, then the EU referendum came about and immigration which the UK actually needs due to the missing people brought about from legalised abortion where up to 200,000 unborn lives are ended every year. Immigration was one of the reasons people voted for Brexit, but the butterfly effect of killing the unborn for decades meant the UK needs immigrants.
Do you not agree that sex select abortions happen? They happen in the UK among minority communities even though they are illegal.
We see the butterfly effect of it in Asia where men greatly outnumber women.
The butterfly effect of abortion, it may seem as not a big deal, there is evidence from other countries that legalised abortion leads to more abortion not less, but year after year, as the missing people from the result of abortion build up, the effects on society grows as populations will get older as abortion distorts demographics.
There is a reason why Ireland has the youngest population in Europe.

European women (including Irish) are getting married and having children much later than the baby booming generation. Having children at a later stage means families are smaller, hence a lower birth rate.

What evidence do you have that “legalised abortion leads to more abortions”.

david75

RobertKK wrote: »

But you put across no argument, you make a statement with nothing to back it up.

There is no cultural or statistical comparison or relevance between Ireland and China.

It’s so totally laughable that you’re using that as an argument.

finbar10

In the poll I opted for the NO vote. I think the current proposal just goes too far. I'd be prepared to allow the Oireachtas to legislate for abortion as long as their hands were tied to some degree in the constitution.

The recent government abortion policy paper copper-fastened (with its 21 principles) this decision. The proposal is for abortion without restriction before 12 weeks. Afterwards, it seems a mirror of UK provisions with just need for any two doctors to sign off for mental/physical health reasons: not serious health reasons or certainly not threats to the life of the mother or danger of suicide, just vague health reasons as per the vast majority of abortions in the UK. A cut off for viability (23 or 24 weeks) as in the UK isn't even mentioned (there was some mention of medical guidelines or best practice but no mention of legislative limits).

I'd think that the Oireachtas committee is a good gauge of how the Dáil might vote on legislation. There are lots of TDs refusing to say or make a definite stand (making noises they might not vote for 12 weeks after the passage of a referendum; just all for show I'd say). I'd say those objections will melt away like the morning mist in the aftermath of a successful referendum. I'd say the votes of the Oireachtas committee is an indication of the true Dáil state of play.

My initial expectation if the referendum passed is that legislation would morph to a liberal abortion regime within 5 or 10 years. However, it looks like we'll fairly immediately jump to such a regime if the amendment is passed.

All too far for me. We're being presented with an all or nothing proposal unfortunately. So NO for me. However, if Regina Doherty is to be believed today, a NO vote would only soon lead to another vote. That's not very respectful of voters. However, most likely any new proposal would be an amendment constraining the Oireachtas a bit more in the legislation it could pass. This is a proposal that would easily pass, and I'd be happy enough with.

So a NO from me for this referendum. The current proposal goes way too far for my liking. No thanks.

mzungu

RobertKK wrote: »

Numbered your points to make it easier for you.

Cool, I will do likewise

RobertKK wrote: »

1. When the most innocent of human life is seen as disposable, it does permeate into other areas.

2. In the UK the abortion level rose for years after it was legalised, started low but it took many years to build up to what it is now as abortion became normalised and acceptable in the minds of more people as society had made killing the unborn a norm, it built up to an average of 190k to 200k per year.

3. Germany is clear evidence of a country that does not have enough babies born, has between 1 in 5 and 1 in 6 pregnancies aborted Reliant on immigrant workers to fill jobs, Merkel invited in 1 million plus as a means to fill a hole. Germany has around 100,000 abortions a year - it was higher, are you going to argue that say over a 20 year period, that missing around 2 million people who could have been if not aborted, doesn't leave a hole that immigration has to fill? The policy Merkel used to fill the hole, and which led to a rise in the far right.

4. see point 3

5. http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170213-why-millions-of-chinese-men-are-staying-single

The effects of abortion in all societies is long lasting, whether from sex select abortion or the effects of abortion on societies with already low birth rates.

6. Are they moving along fine? Countries with the far right on the rise due to mass immigration being needed to fill a demographic hole. An estimated 200 million missing women in the world due to sex select abortions which also happen illegally in the UK. The effects of abortion are long lasting on society and are negative.

1. That still doesn't explain your suggestion that slavery and abortion are linked, nor how it would "permeate into other areas".

2. Post introduction of abortion in the UK there has been a sharp decline in cases of sepsis and death due to illegal abortions. Abortion was happening prior to that, legalising it made it safer. The vast majority of abortions (95%) are carried out under grounds of prevention of physical and mental harm to the pregnant woman. Furthermore, the UK comes in slightly below average in Europe when it comes to abortion rates. Why not look at Northern Ireland, they have precious few abortions per year, chances are we would end up along those lines, rather than mimicking exactly what happens across the water. Not that it matters, because either way none of those cases suggest abortion being out of control.

3. In Germany (and the west) birth rates are falling because a lot of people don't want massive families. We have moved on from the "go forth and multiply" days, people are now voluntarily staying single, co-habiting without children, or co-habiting with a small amount of children. They are exercising a free choice. The same will probably happen here eventually, even our birth rate is dropping and we don't have abortion (yet).

It doesn't matter how many abortions took place in Germany. It has not led to the immigration crisis or the need for immigrants. Correlation does not equal causation.

4. See point 3.

5. That was purely a result of Chinas one-child policy, and nothing whatsoever to do with abortion.

6. Unfortunately, the far right have always been around in one guise or another. They would have popped up with another issue eventually. Sure, the Irish were targets of the British far right a few years back.

Regarding sex selective abortion, even outside of the west, that is still widely disputed. According to MacPhearson (2007) the differences could be attributed to food access, gender violence and immunisations between male and female children. This then leads to a higher infant mortality among girls.

Regarding sex selective abortions in the UK, there is no evidence that it's a problem. Only hearsay suggests that it is developing into an issue, but there is no proof to back that up.

MacPherson, Y. (2007). "Images and Icons: Harnessing the Power of Media to Reduce Sex-Selective Abortion in India". Gender and Development. 15 (2): 413–23

Will be voting to repeal.

Seems a lot of the people against also have a problem with women in general from reading their posts on other threads and their stance on the vote is just an extension of thier issues rather than any real concern for the unborn.

Simi

finbar10 wrote: »

In the poll I opted for the NO vote. I think the current proposal just goes too far. I'd be prepared to allow the Oireachtas to legislate for abortion as long as their hands were tied to some degree in the constitution.


However, most likely any new proposal would be an amendment constraining the Oireachtas a bit more in the legislation it could pass. This is a proposal that would easily pass, and I'd be happy enough with.

So a NO from me for this referendum. The current proposal goes way too far for my liking. No thanks.

I disagree with your assessment that an amendment restricting the ability of the Oireachtas to legislate only for specific cases would easily pass. In fact the current proposals are as restrictive as the government could make them without alienating core repeal voters, in my opinion.

There is no appetite for inserting another abortion clause into the constitution amongst any of the main organisations supporting repeal, and restricting abortion to rape, incest and FFA to appease a small percentage of voters who only support terminations in these circumstances, would completely alienate pro-choice voters like myself.

A half way proposal, is just that and would tie future governments into a never ending saga of court cases, dail debates and protests. The current proposals have the support of the majority and the government would be wise to stick to them.

freshpopcorn

Mod Note This thread is kind of hand to moderate to be honest at times.
If you have issues and you believe accounts to be duplicates please report.
Another issue to bare in mind is some people might have very liberal or conservative views. I don't think this is trolling unless there using hate speech/excessive rudeness/etc.

RobertKK

david75 wrote: »

There is no cultural or statistical comparison or relevance between Ireland and China.

It’s so totally laughable that you’re using that as an argument.

It is happening in the UK in minority communities.
There is now a blood test that can tell if a woman is having a boy or girl at 9 weeks gestation. So technically this would allow sex select abortions to happen in Ireland.

RobertKK

DubInMeath wrote: »

Will be voting to repeal.

Seems a lot of the people against also have a problem with women in general from reading their posts on other threads and their stance on the vote is just an extension of thier issues rather than any real concern for the unborn.

I disagree, abortion has led to an estimated 200 million missing women due to sex selection abortion, so if a person had an issue with women, it would be better to vote to repeal as there would be less born.

MilesMorales1

RobertKK wrote: »

I disagree, abortion has led to an estimated 200 million missing women due to sex selection abortion, so if a person had an issue with women, it would be better to vote to repeal as there would be less born.

... what?

david75

RobertKK wrote: »

It is happening in the UK in minority communities.
There is now a blood test that can tell if a woman is having a boy or girl at 9 weeks gestation. So technically this would allow sex select abortions to happen in Ireland.

I don’t even know where to begin.
You need to come back away from the hysterical fringe. You’re doing yourself no favours.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

It is happening in the UK in minority communities.
There is now a blood test that can tell if a woman is having a boy or girl at 9 weeks gestation. So technically this would allow sex select abortions to happen in Ireland.

You're wrong. You're talking about the harmony test which can only be performed after 10 weeks and takes approx two weeks to come back. With the current proposal the cut off for abortion on request is 12 weeks. So that won't happen here.

Not to mention its prohibitivley expensive for a lot of people so they just can't afford it.

RobertKK

DubInMeath wrote: »

Considering your first thread was a question asking why women cut their hair short, and you then posted giving out about feminists I'm not surprise.

That was not me. You are confusing me with someone else.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

I disagree, abortion has led to an estimated 200 million missing women due to sex selection abortion, so if a person had an issue with women, it would be better to vote to repeal as there would be less born.

I could waste a lot of effort writing a reasonable reply as to why your statement is wrong on so many levels but as I have to work in the morning I'm just leaving it with, your talking out of your arse.

RobertKK

January wrote: »

You're wrong. You're talking about the harmony test which can only be performed after 10 weeks and takes approx two weeks to come back. With the current proposal the cut off for abortion on request is 12 weeks. So that won't happen here.

Not to mention its prohibitivley expensive for a lot of people so they just can't afford it.

This is a different test to the Harmony test and tells at 9 weeks. Called Panorama from what I see.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

That was not me. You are confusing me with someone else.

No not confusing you with anyone, quoted a post from a fake account (excel spreadsheet) in my reply , the one you quoted, and then deleted my post once I realised their account had been deleted.

robarmstrong

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Mod Note This thread is kind of hand to moderate to be honest at times.
If you have issues and you believe accounts to be duplicates please report.
Another issue to bare in mind is some people might have very liberal or conservative views. I don't think this is trolling unless there using hate speech/excessive rudeness/etc.

That's fair enough, but something needs to be said about the posters that'll post something really outrageous (like in the previous thread) then will dive from the thread avoiding all rebuttals only to drop in later with something else outrageous/border-line trolling, it's all well and good having different views, but it's fairly obvious that people have been dangling bait just waiting for a nibble.

I'm all for an open, reasonable and intelligent discussion that isn't tarred with snide insults or remarks (of which I know I've probably left some previous out of sheer frustration with some of the comments people have made so brazenly) but anytime the repeal side extends the hand, it gets slapped, bitten or twisted with obscene, incorrect and borderline troll-like rebuttals.

I am pro-choice, but I am anti-abortion. In an ideal world there shouldn't be abortion, but unfortunately this is not an ideal world and we have to make what we have work. I am pro-choice because I don't want my baby girl to be chased out of this country and shamed by others to seek a medical procedure that should be made available to her regardless of other people's perception of what the procedure is actually about. I am voting repeal so that my daughter (if she is ever in that situation which I hope is never) is not forced into continuing a pregnancy against her will by people who really should have no say in what she does with her own body. I welcome an intelligent discussion or rebuttal from the opposition, they just haven't provided any.

January

RobertKK wrote: »

This is a different test to the Harmony test and tells at 9 weeks. Called Panorama from what I see.

Can be done from 9 weeks. Takes from 8 to 10 working days to come back. With the waiting period being proposed its leaving a very short window and again prohibitivley expensive so by the time most people save for it when they find out at 6 weeks pregnant...

Still not seeing it.

RobertKK

DubInMeath wrote: »

I could waste a lot of effort writing a reasonable reply as to why your statement is wrong on so many levels but as I have to work in the morning I'm just leaving it with, your talking out of your arse.

Again a dismissal and no evidence.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/feb/22/sex-selection-armenia-quandary

Armenia really needs its missing women. “We lose 1,400 girls a year. In the long term who will our boys marry? How will we consolidate the Armenian nation? We are only 3 million people. We have no right to such losses. There will be no mothers to give birth to girls,”

The introduction of ultrasound in the mid-90s has exacerbated sex selection across all the former Soviet republics, however.

The key to change is situating this debate at the very heart of Armenian society, to ensure the survival of the nation.

If the trends are not reversed, Armenia will have lost almost 93,000 women by 2060. That’s an awful lot of potential mothers. Everyone talks of extending choice and opportunity for women. Interestingly, “no one is blamed for what is happening … Everyone is part of the solution,”

Abortion is about women rights... http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/unwanted-21-million-girls-economic-survey-5075935/

“Missing women” are the girls and women who would be alive today if parents were not aborting female foetuses. Girls getting less food and healthcare add to this count by raising female mortality. Amartya Sen woke us up to this problem in 1990 with an article titled “More Than 100 Million Women Are Missing”. He counted the missing women across several countries such as India, China and Pakistan. Many people knew the problem existed, but Sen’s number, called out in the title of his article, made the problem salient.

Some put the figure close to 200 million missing women. One can see through gendercide how women are devalued and how abortion contributes to this by killing them so they can't be born.

The government here is doing nothing to stop sex selection being illegal, the mental health grounds could be used after the 12 weeks to abort. The whole proposed legislation by the government looks ill thought out.
Pro-woman it certainly is not....

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/parents-will-be-allowed-to-choose-sex-of-their-baby-under-proposed-new-legislation-36501642.html

Parents will be allowed to choose the sex of their baby under proposed new legislation, it emerged yesterday.

RobertKK

January wrote: »

Can be done from 9 weeks. Takes from 8 to 10 working days to come back. With the waiting period being proposed its leaving a very short window and again prohibitivley expensive so by the time most people save for it when they find out at 6 weeks pregnant...

Still not seeing it.

Parents will be allowed to choose the sex of their baby under the proposed legistation...

January

RobertKK wrote: »

Parents will be allowed to choose the sex of their baby under the proposed legistation...

Did you actually read that article or did you just see the headline and think 'bingo I've got those pro choicers by the short and curlys now!' because I'd read it again if you did already read it.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

RobertKK wrote: »

Parents will be allowed to choose the sex of their baby under the proposed legistation...

You must have read a different bill to me. Where is that stated? No need for a link if you haven't one, just document name and paragraph will suffice,

Edit. I see now, you're actually muddying the waters with a different proposed law which is nothing to do with abortion.

eviltwin

Maybe the way to end sex selection abortion isn't to ban abortion but work towards changing attitudes towards women and girls in minority cultures........

applehunter

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe the way to end sex selection abortion isn't to ban abortion but work towards changing attitudes towards women and girls in minority cultures........

The liberal view of the justice system.

RobertKK

RobertKK wrote: »

Again a dismissal and no evidence.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2018/feb/22/sex-selection-armenia-quandary






Abortion is about women rights... http://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/unwanted-21-million-girls-economic-survey-5075935/

Some put the figure close to 200 million missing women. One can see through gendercide how women are devalued and how abortion contributes to this by killing them so they can't be born.

The government here is doing nothing to stop sex selection being illegal, the mental health grounds could be used after the 12 weeks to abort. The whole proposed legislation by the government looks ill thought out.
Pro-woman it certainly is not....

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/health/parents-will-be-allowed-to-choose-sex-of-their-baby-under-proposed-new-legislation-36501642.html

No as I said I'm busy getting ready for work and arguing with someone who is pro life is like pissing into the wind something I don't have time for at the moment.

Turtyturd

RobertKK wrote: »

But you put across no argument, you make a statement with nothing to back it up.

I’m not trying to make an argument, I’m pointing out the stupidity of what you said.

RobertKK

January wrote: »

Did you actually read that article or did you just see the headline and think 'bingo I've got those pro choicers by the short and curlys now!' because I'd read it again if you did already read it.

The proposed Irish legislation leaves it open for sex selection abortion to happen on mental health grounds.

It is being argued in the UK that stopping sex select abortions could damage the mental health of the mother.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/sex-selective-abortions-any-stage-pro-choice-bma-ethics-wendy-savage-british-medical-association-a7638901.html

Senior doctors’ union member Wendy Savage said it was “outrageous” that some doctors withheld information about the gender of unborn babies due to fears over sex-selective abortions.

Professor Savage told the Mail on Sunday that forcing women to give birth to a child of a sex they do not want to have “is not going to be good for the eventual child, and it's not going to be good for [the mother's] mental health."