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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #5732
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    irishrebe wrote: »
    No, that's exactly right. And yet look at all the people who are up in arms about the idea of consent classes. The very same people who think starting to have sex with a sleeping person isn't rape.

    I'm pretty sure you need to have penetration to have rape so actually its not rape


  • #5733
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    Becks610 wrote: »
    I don’t understand this good character bit in any trial. Like take for example people who marry a murderer- they probably thought there partner was of good character and there has been numerous cases of people with good character committing serious offenses.

    The middle class comment is shocking- it shows everyone what they think of working class people.

    Agree on the middle class thing- though it was only one of the lawyers and to be fair we don't know the context.

    Of course people who were previously of good character do commit offences. But less frequently than those who can be shown to not be of good character (when accounting for the difference in the size of these two groups, obviously ).

    To demonstrate by counterfactual: if any of these guys had previously been convicted of any violent or sexual offence, do you not agree that would be relevant?


  • #5734
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Have you any opinion on someone performing a sex act on someone when they sleep?

    If you agree it's illegal, then you're after me for no reason.

    If you don't agree, then it's a sorry state of affairs.

    I will answer if you agree the law should be equal. And specifically legislated for and treated with the same as male of female. Currently the law is only one way male on male or male on female. Ofc digital penetration could be counted.


  • #5735
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    We are talking about a situation where the partner initiates oral sex to wake someone up and they waken and enjoy it.

    Has a crime been committed?

    Yes. The crime is comitted if someone is asleep and you engage in sex with a sleeping motionless body. YOU CANNOT LEGALLY GIVE CONSENT IF YOU ARE ASLEEP!!

    Pretty simple.

    You are asking for cases where someone woke up and didn't mind it happening to them............................obviously no cases exist because why would they bring criminal proceedings against the other party if they enjoy it.

    But there are plenty of cases where someone has been convicted for sexual assault, in one way or the other, some even involving their wife, in this country.

    You seem to be just looking for a bit of riff raff on this thread anyway so I don't know why I am trying to lecture you on a scenario where you could be convicted for sexual assault for an action you deem legal.


  • #5736
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    Yes. The crime is comitted if someone is asleep and you engage in sex with a sleeping motionless body. YOU CANNOT LEGALLY GIVE CONSENT IF YOU ARE ASLEEP!!

    Pretty simple.

    You are asking for cases where someone woke up and didn't mind it happening to them............................obviously no cases exist because why would they bring criminal proceedings against the other party if they enjoy it.

    But there are plenty of cases where someone has been convicted for sexual assault, in one way or the other, some even involving their wife, in this country.

    You seem to be just looking for a bit of riff raff on this thread anyway so I don't know why I am trying to lecture you on a scenario where you could be convicted for sexual assault for an action you deem legal.

    The person WOKE UP and enjoyed it.


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  • #5737
    irishman86
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭irishman86


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Whatever you think there, sweetheart. I'm not in disbelief, I unfortunately grew up in Ireland. My Canadian friends actually grew up somewhere where a woman recounting a rape or an assault wasn't immediately disbelieved and mocked.

    Wow you are very narky, you realise everytime you comment with patronising bull**** like "sweetheart" you show everyone just how clueless you are
    Its funny ive canadian friends and they think nothing but good things about our country. I did live there and rape is the same in every country, same rates nearly to a percent, the reason is its hard to prove
    Ive spent enough time in Ireland to know you are just talking constant rubbish
    As for mocking, ive only mocked your warped view on irish men, neither of us know what happened outside of the jury finding them innocent which leads me to believe as i respect the law that it was consensual
    I do enjoy reading your posts though, as its funny watching someone resort to name calling when they realise how stupid there posts have been
    Casting even more doubt on your stories of world travel and education :pac:


  • #5738
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The person WOKE UP and enjoyed it.

    But when they don't enjoy it, they can report you, because it's illegal.

    In fact, technically speaking they can report you either way. Someone could say they're enjoying it and go to the guards anyway.

    You're definitely just trolling now.


  • #5739
    irishman86
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭irishman86


    irishrebe wrote: »
    I'm sure they do. I'm pretty sure that also, a woman who mentioned that she was raped or assaulted is listened to and empathised with rather than people immediately assuming she's a liar. Nice use of feminazi, btw. True colours shown.

    Seriously lol. Did you just call someone out when you have called names multiple times


  • #5740
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭Allinall


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The person WOKE UP and enjoyed it.

    WOKE is the critical word.
    Past tense.
    You can’t undo a sexual assault .


  • #5741
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Flipper22 wrote: »
    Agree on the middle class thing- though it was only one of the lawyers and to be fair we don't know the context.

    Of course people who were previously of good character do commit offences. But less frequently than those who can be shown to not be of good character (when accounting for the difference in the size of these two groups, obviously ).

    To demonstrate by counterfactual: if any of these guys had previously been convicted of any violent or sexual offence, do you not agree that would be relevant?

    As far as I know previous convictions can not be brought up. Which seems a bit mad that you can put forward good character but hide bad character which would actually probably be more relevant.


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  • #5742
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    But when they don't enjoy it, they can report you, because it's illegal.

    In fact, technically speaking they can report you either way. Someone could say they're enjoying it and go to the guards anyway.

    You're definitely just trolling now.

    Which didn't happen in the original poster's story and doesn't happen in thousands and thousands of relationships, from 20 year old marriages to one night stands.

    Normal people sort this out like normal people.

    It is abnormal for a third party, who is not there, to try and impose a crime.


  • #5743
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    I will answer if you agree the law should be equal. And specifically legislated for and treated with the same as male of female. Currently the law is only one way male on male or male on female. Ofc digital penetration could be counted.

    As I understand, it is actually covered elsewhere in legislation because I asked this very question before.

    Let me see if I can find it.


  • #5744
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The person WOKE UP and enjoyed it.

    The person engaged in a sexual act on a sleeping corpse. Sleeping body = no legal ability, never mind mindful ability to grant consent.

    Two scenarios.............1) The person wakes up, enjoys the situation, no big deal, (legally a crime, by definition, but no report of crime)
    2) The person wakes up, freaks out and reports you.......also a crime but this time you are up in court.




    Simple. Simple as f*ck.


  • #5745
    facehugger99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,878 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    FrancieBrady wrote: »

    Normal people sort this out like normal people.

    WTF does this even mean?

    Your defending someone performing a sex act on a comatose person

    Cop yourself on for fcuk sake and stop spreading your dangerous ****e on here!


  • #5746
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭Allinall


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Which didn't happen in the original poster's story and doesn't happen in thousands and thousands of relationships, from 20 year old marriages to one night stands.

    Normal people sort this out like normal people.

    It is abnormal for a third party, who is not there, to try and impose a crime.

    You can’t “impose a crime”, whatever that is supposed to mean.

    A crime is committed, or not. It’s clear cut.


  • #5747
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Which didn't happen in the original poster's story and doesn't happen in thousands and thousands of relationships, from 20 year old marriages to one night stands.

    Normal people sort this out like normal people.

    It is abnormal for a third party, who is not there, to try and impose a crime.

    The OP said it was fine to behave in this way just because he enjoys it, when it's not.

    And a third party wouldn't be trying to impose a crime. You're committing a crime by doing it in the first place.

    If you get charged and found guilty in court, it's your fault. End of.


  • #5748
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Allinall wrote: »
    You can’t “impose a crime”, whatever that is supposed to mean.

    A crime is committed, or not. It’s clear cut.

    No the crime is based on consent.... I have never woken from receiving manual or oral stimulation and then reported it as a crime. It's either yeah continue or no sorry I just want to go back to sleep. And as far as I know they would not actually be crimes as penetration never took place.


  • #5749
    Becks610
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Becks610


    Flipper22 wrote: »
    Agree on the middle class thing- though it was only one of the lawyers and to be fair we don't know the context.

    Of course people who were previously of good character do commit offences. But less frequently than those who can be shown to not be of good character (when accounting for the difference in the size of these two groups, obviously ).

    To demonstrate by counterfactual: if any of these guys had previously been convicted of any violent or sexual offence, do you not agree that would be relevant?

    Well on the middle class thing I’m not sure we need the context.

    Point taken on the previous offences re character- I think a factual statement would suffice then saying Xx has never been convicted of a violent or sexual offence before. This way it is factual and unbiased as a persons good character definition could be very different to another persons as this thread shows.


  • #5750
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    irishman86 wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    Whatever you think there, sweetheart. I'm not in disbelief, I unfortunately grew up in Ireland. My Canadian friends actually grew up somewhere where a woman recounting a rape or an assault wasn't immediately disbelieved and mocked.

    Wow you are very narky, you realise everytime you comment with patronising bull**** like "sweetheart" you show everyone just how clueless you are
    Its funny ive canadian friends and they think nothing but good things about our country. I did live there and rape is the same in every country, same rates nearly to a percent, the reason is its hard to prove
    Ive spent enough time in Ireland to know you are just talking constant rubbish
    As for mocking, ive only mocked your warped view on irish men, neither of us know what happened outside of the jury finding them innocent which leads me to believe as i respect the law that it was consensual
    I do enjoy reading your posts though, as its funny watching someone resort to name calling when they realise how stupid there posts have been
    Casting even more doubt on your stories of world travel and education :pac:
    Sure, everyone loves Ireland when they visit. It's great on the surface. Why don't you invite them to this thread to have a read of this thread? Certainly changed some of my mates' outlook on the place, along with the fact it's 2018 and we're still debating whether rape victims are allowed to have an abortion.


  • #5751
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    The person engaged in a sexual act on a sleeping corpse. Sleeping body = no legal ability, never mind mindful ability to grant consent.

    Two scenarios.............1) The person wakes up, enjoys the situation, no big deal, (legally a crime, by definition, but no report of crime)
    2) The person wakes up, freaks out and reports you.......also a crime but this time you are up in court.




    Simple. Simple as f*ck.

    And normal people sort this out. Hence no court cases for initiating sex.

    Performing full sex on a sleeping woman is entirely different.


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  • #5752
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Faugheen wrote: »
    No, because it would be a different act. You can't consent to a sex act that is taking place while you are sleeping. That is a fact.

    Just because someone isn't in bed with you doesn't give you free reign to do as you please when you please.

    You can't consent if you are asleep.
    I would argue consent had already been given in this scenario.

    Different sex acts means nothing, is a new position a new act? How about round two 30 mins later?

    A society can't function like this tbh.


    /edit, I believe the law regarding exclusions for consent are there for the scenario where the entire situation is instigated when one party is already asleep or drunk etc. Not a continuation.

    Now obviously if someone wakes up and says "no" then you stop, same as if a person decides they want you to stop right in the middle of round 1.


  • #5753
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The OP said it was fine to behave in this way just because he enjoys it, when it's not.

    And a third party wouldn't be trying to impose a crime. You're committing a crime by doing it in the first place.

    If you get charged and found guilty in court, it's your fault. End of.

    Seriously 2 people go to bed together ,one wakes up performs oral on the other who wakes up and tells other to stop. Iniatiater stops immediately yet is charged with sexual assault or "rape"?

    If you could point me to a conviction in those circumstances please


  • #5754
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    No the crime is based on consent.... I have never woken from receiving manual or oral stimulation and then reported it as a crime. It's either yeah continue or no sorry I just want to go back to sleep. And as far as I know they would not actually be crimes as penetration never took place.

    You left out half of the section by the way. See below.

    (6) In this section—

    ‘sexual act’ means—

    (a) an act consisting of—

    (i) sexual intercourse, or

    (ii) buggery,

    (b) an act described in section 3(1) or 4(1) of this Act, or

    (c) an act which if done without consent would constitute a sexual assault;


  • #5755
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    RuMan wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    The OP said it was fine to behave in this way just because he enjoys it, when it's not.

    And a third party wouldn't be trying to impose a crime. You're committing a crime by doing it in the first place.

    If you get charged and found guilty in court, it's your fault. End of.

    Seriously 2 people go to bed together ,one wakes up performs oral on the other who wakes up and tells other to stop. Iniatiater stops immediately yet is charged with sexual assault or "rape"?

    If you could point me to a conviction in those circumstances please
    And what if they don't wake up at all because they're a heavy sleeper? Is that morally OK to you?


  • #5756
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    As far as I know previous convictions can not be brought up. Which seems a bit mad that you can put forward good character but hide bad character which would actually probably be more relevant.

    In the UK?

    Do you have a link to anywhere this is stated?


  • #5757
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You left out half of the section by the way. See below.

    (6) In this section—

    ‘sexual act’ means—

    (a) an act consisting of—

    (i) sexual intercourse, or

    (ii) buggery,

    (b) an act described in section 3(1) or 4(1) of this Act, or

    (c) an act which if done without consent would constitute a sexual assault;

    I'm still waiting for the Penetration vs none penetration. The law is taken on a case by case basis. I have yet to see a case based on what many have said.


  • #5758
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    And normal people sort this out. Hence no court cases for initiating sex.

    Performing full sex on a sleeping woman is entirely different.

    What is a "normal person" in your mindset

    Is someone abnormal if they awake to someone with their fingers in their vagina and/or someone down on them and report the CRIME to the police? You can be a "normal" person and not be into someone sexually pestering you while you are asleep to the point they actually feel violated.

    Jesus, you are messed up.


  • #5759
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    irishrebe wrote: »
    Sure, everyone loves Ireland when they visit. It's great on the surface. Why don't you invite them to this thread to have a read of this thread? Certainly changed some of my mates' outlook on the place, along with the fact it's 2018 and we're still debating whether rape victims are allowed to have an abortion.

    U have issues. I'd suggest resolving them or throwing urself into life in Canada and forgetting about Ireland.

    I wouldnt form an opinion on Canada based on some internet forum myself.


  • #5760
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    irishrebe wrote: »
    And what if they don't wake up at all because they're a heavy sleeper? Is that morally OK to you?

    Jumping the shark now.


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  • #5761
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    RuMan wrote: »
    Seriously 2 people go to bed together ,one wakes up performs oral on the other who wakes up and tells other to stop. Iniatiater stops immediately yet is charged with sexual assault or "rape"?

    If you could point me to a conviction in those circumstances please

    No, I have shown you the legislation. It's very clear on this issue.

    Stop telling me I'm wrong when I'm not.


This discussion has been closed.
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