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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #5702
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    You've never heard of nonverbal communication?

    You don't have to ask: if you can't tell whether or not the woman you're having sex is enjoying it or not by the act itself, you're not as good at it as you think you are.
    So consent is only required if she doesn't enjoy it now?
    Is there a 2018 rule book available for purchase anywhere?


  • #5703
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Jesus.

    It's a crime when you do it in the first place.

    It's written. In Law.

    Stop ****ing lying.

    Also, stop referring to sex acts in a general sense. We are talking about when one person is asleep.

    That is not your business or anyone else's to make. If the law is an ass in other areas it is also one in this area, where a person wakes up enjoying what is happening.

    The absurdity of a third person assessing an intimate situation, laid bare.
    So if you and your partner split up and you go on to have one night stands with other ladies, would you wake them up in the same way?


  • #5704
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    irishrebe wrote: »
    No more than anyone else's. Certainly no more than the defendents' stories. One of whom seemingly could not remember whether he'd even had sex with her or not.

    The booze, we've all been there.


  • #5705
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    Bananaleaf wrote: »
    Apologies if this has been covered already today - so many posts since I last checked in and I can't go through them all.

    Two things that disturb me from Justine McCarthy's article in the Sunday Times today (pg 7)

    "Olding's counsel Frank O'Donoghue said, there were "middle-class girls downstairs who would not tolerate rape"

    And

    "The judge advised (the jurors) to take the men's good character into consideration, and to remember that people of good character were less likely to commit a crime or lie in court"

    Well, if that's what was said and those sentences haven't been ripped out of context, then F me

    I don't know how middle class or otherwise is supposed to be relevant. Strange comment which he should have retracted.

    Good character is often referenced in a trial. Rightly so, it is circumstantial evidence


  • #5706
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    Which legislators ?

    The ones who decide the laws of the country.

    You know, like they have in this act: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/enacted/en/print#sec48

    Which specifically says:

    (2) A person does not consent to a sexual act if—

    (b) he or she is asleep or unconscious.

    ===

    Those ones.


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  • #5707
    Becks610
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Becks610


    RuMan wrote: »
    The booze, we've all been there.

    Well it could be argued that if you drink so much that you can’t remember having sex what else can you not remember. [ I know this was the 3rd guy that wasn’t accused of rape.)


  • #5708
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Where are cases detailing the crime of waking somebody up who goes on to enjoy it?

    I'm not getting into this with you again, so you just go and sexually assault people while they sleep and see what happens when you do it to someone who doesn't like it.

    I tried to warn you.


  • #5709
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Faugheen wrote: »
    If one commits a sex act while another is sleeping then it is sexual assault, because the other person hasn't given consent.

    If the person wakes up to that and tell you to stop, they can report that to the guards, and you admit you did it, then you are going to be convicted of sexual assault.

    There's no other way of spelling it out to you. If you are someone who does this (I'm going to assume you don't) then I would advise you to stop doing it before you get yourself in trouble.

    Would consent not continue from the night before? Often that could be a couple of hours previously.
    We are then into dangerous territory imo.


  • #5710
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    irishrebe wrote: »
    So if you and your partner split up and you go on to have one night stands with other ladies, would you wake them up in the same way?

    I will initiate, and stop if my partner is not up for it.

    You guys are beginning to sound like the church who wanted to be the third party in bedrooms for years.


  • #5711
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    Faugheen wrote: »
    When the person is sleeping then there is no consent given, and it's not even debatable.

    That's what we're talking about here, keep up.

    Sorry, didn't realise you were in charge of the thread.

    Your post is incorrect anyway. What you mean to say is 'a person cannot give consent while sleeping'. Important difference. You need to be accurate with language when talking about the law.


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  • #5712
    Becks610
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 144 ✭✭Becks610


    Flipper22 wrote: »
    I don't know how middle class or otherwise is supposed to be relevant. Strange comment which he should have retracted.

    Good character is often referenced in a trial. Rightly so, it is circumstantial evidence


    I don’t understand this good character bit in any trial. Like take for example people who marry a murderer- they probably thought there partner was of good character and there has been numerous cases of people with good character committing serious offenses.

    The middle class comment is shocking- it shows everyone what they think of working class people.


  • #5713
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Faugheen wrote: »
    The ones who decide the laws of the country.

    You know, like they have in this act: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/act/2/enacted/en/print#sec48

    Which specifically says:

    (2) A person does not consent to a sexual act if—

    (b) he or she is asleep or unconscious.

    ===

    Those ones.

    I know the Irish law. This happened in the UK.

    ‘sexual act’ means—

    (a) an act consisting of—

    (i) sexual intercourse, or

    (ii) buggery,

    Should we not be getting this changed as it's inconsistant in relation to female on male ?


  • #5714
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Would consent not continue from the night before? Often that could be a couple of hours previously.
    We are then into dangerous territory imo.

    No, because it would be a different act. You can't consent to a sex act that is taking place while you are sleeping. That is a fact.

    Just because someone isn't in bed with you doesn't give you free reign to do as you please when you please.


  • #5715
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    irishrebe wrote: »
    So if you and your partner split up and you go on to have one night stands with other ladies, would you wake them up in the same way?

    To be honest i wake up, unless she's really **** at it. If i dont wake up it'll be crap for her and she'll get bored and stop.
    Once i wake up either party can call a halt to proceedings if not comfortable. Same in reverse.


  • #5716
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    I know the Irish law. This happened in the UK.

    ‘sexual act’ means—

    (a) an act consisting of—

    (i) sexual intercourse, or

    (ii) buggery,

    Should we not be getting this changed as it's inconsistant in relation to female on male ?

    I'm not talking about this trial. So either read the thread and understand where this discussion came from or step away from the conversation like a good man.


  • #5717
    Bananaleaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Bananaleaf


    RuMan wrote: »
    There is a whole undercurrent of '" get the posh rugby lads" in parts of the media.
    Parts of this country really hate rugby and the class of people who follow it. Aodhan O'Riordan and Ruth Coppinger were virtue signalling to these people.

    Yeah, but in the two quotes I posted myself a couple of posts back there seems to equally be an undercurrent of "they're posh rugby lads, they would never do that" So, you know, if the defense are going to lean on it to make a point, they can't really get antsy about others doing the same


  • #5718
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I'm not getting into this with you again, so you just go and sexually assault people while they sleep and see what happens when you do it to someone who doesn't like it.

    I tried to warn you.

    We sort it out like adults who consented to a night of sex.

    Happens every day and night of the week. And the courts are not clogged with cases of assault as a result as you so adequately proved by not finding a single case of somebody being done for initiating sex.

    And no, a case of somebody having sex with a person who is comatose or asleep through the entire act is not a similar situation at all.


  • #5719
    Flipper22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 811 ✭✭✭Flipper22


    irishrebe wrote: »
    There are going to be inconsistencies in pretty much any story anyone ever tells. That's the way humans work. Until we're all equipped with cameras in our eyes to record everything we do in some Black Mirror-esque dystopian future, people will need to accept that.

    No

    Many witnesseses in court give evidence which is wholly consistent from start to finish. Obviously that they were all drunk makes this less likely


  • #5720
    emeraldwinter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭emeraldwinter


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I'm not talking about this trial. So either read the thread and understand where this discussion came from or step away from the conversation like a good man.

    But this thread is about this trial. Have you any opinion on the Irish law being only on penetration ?


  • #5721
    The Talking Bread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,037 ✭✭✭✭The Talking Bread


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    It becomes a crime when he/she doesn't stop.

    As I said, most normal people work these things out, initiating and declining advances is a normal part of relationships even one night stands. Abnormal people cry crime, even if they were not there.

    That is where you are completely wrong. And apparently completely unwilling/thick/pretending not to understand
    If you are asleep and someone engages in a sexual act on you, it is a crime. (ie, against the law) l PLAIN and SIMPLE. They can report it or not, like all crimes.

    EDIT It seems you are on the wind up and sadly I have bitten I think.


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  • #5722
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    We sort it out like adults who consented to a night of sex.

    Happens every day and night of the week. And the courts are not clogged with cases of assault as a result as you so adequately proved by not finding a single case of somebody being done for initiating sex.

    And no, a case of somebody having sex with a person who is comatose or asleep through the entire act is not a similar situation at all.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

    There's a case ^

    And if someone is asleep they can not give consent. If you initiate a sex act when they are sleeping, that person has not consented.

    Stop.


  • #5723
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    The Talking Bread wrote: »
    That is where you are completely wrong. And apparently completely unwilling/thick/pretending not to understand
    If you are asleep and someone engages in a sexual act on you, it is a crime. (ie, against the law) l PLAIN and SIMPLE. They can report it or not, like all crimes.

    EDIT It seems you are on the wind up and sadly I have bitten I think.

    We are talking about a situation where the partner initiates oral sex to wake someone up and they waken and enjoy it.

    Has a crime been committed?


  • #5724
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Ah look, we have a rapist on the forum.

    Thats a bit much


  • #5725
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    emeraldwinter wrote: »
    But this thread is about this trial. Have you any opinion on the Irish law being only on penetration ?

    Have you any opinion on someone performing a sex act on someone when they sleep?

    If you agree it's illegal, then you're after me for no reason.

    If you don't agree, then it's a sorry state of affairs.


  • #5726
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

    There's a case ^

    And if someone is asleep they can not give consent. If you initiate a sex act when they are sleeping, that person has not consented.

    Stop.

    Entirely different to the scenario we are talking about. She didn't waken at all.
    Your are clutching at straws here.
    Giving judgment, Mr Justice George Birmingham said the victim had woken to find herself covered in sperm with no knowledge of having engaged in any sexual activity


  • #5727
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,929 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RuMan wrote: »
    Thats a bit much

    It is par for the course.


  • #5728
    RuMan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 469 ✭✭RuMan


    Faugheen wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/sleep-rape-case-man-given-15-monthsentence-for-raping-girlfriend-while-she-slept-following-undue-leniency-appeal-34542277.html

    There's a case ^

    And if someone is asleep they can not give consent. If you initiate a sex act when they are sleeping, that person has not consented.

    Stop.

    Thats not really in anyway similar as what is being described now is it?


  • #5729
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    irishrebe wrote: »
    So if you and your partner split up and you go on to have one night stands with other ladies, would you wake them up in the same way?

    I will initiate, and stop if my partner is not up for it.

    You guys are beginning to sound like the church who wanted to be the third party in bedrooms for years.
    This is rape. No ifs and buts about it.


  • #5730
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Entirely different to the scenario we are talking about. She didn't waken at all.
    Your are clutching at straws here.

    I'm not clutching at straws at all.

    A man went to prison for having sex with a woman while she slept.

    You are not allowed to stick your willy inside a woman when she is sleeping.

    What straws am I clutching at here?


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  • #5731
    irishrebe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 612 ✭✭✭irishrebe


    RuMan wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Ah look, we have a rapist on the forum.

    Thats a bit much
    No, that's exactly right. And yet look at all the people who are up in arms about the idea of consent classes. The very same people who think starting to have sex with a sleeping person isn't rape.


This discussion has been closed.
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